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LODA Saga Continues - How Does Van's Transition Training Work

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gmcjetpilot

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Apologize if this was beat to death. I am speaking as a 30 yr RV pilot, CFI who wants to train others in my RV-7. Just for clarification.

1) CFI who wants to use their own RV for transition training of other pilots, can NOT accept money of any kind for the use of the aircraft even with a LODA. True or False?
(Note CFI can not pad their rate above market, which is $20 to $35 per hour nation wide.)

2) Van's offers transition training. Do they Charge for aircraft for their Transition training? If they do how do they comply with FAA rules for EAB and compensation?

3) I understand legislation in works that may change this, allowing for operational, maintenance cost compensation (made whole) for the use of EAB aircraft for transition training.

Thanks
 
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A CFI with a LODA can charge for the instruction and use of the aircraft in the CFI's own E-AB aircraft. The long pole in the tent is the insurance requirement which I believe is pretty expensive. IIRC, Van's transition training is not really the company providing it but rather a list of CFI's with RV's who the company recommends.
 
Vans aircraft does have a LODA to give transition training in their company aircraft. Mike Seager is the primary CFI that does that.

A fee is charged for the use of the airplane as allowed by the LODA.

Note, this is not the same LODA, that was being issued to aircraft owners to allow them to receive flight reviews or flight training in an EAB aircraft that they own.
One of the requirements that makes this LODA different is that 100 hour inspections must be done on the aircraft.
This LODA is also very specific in what types of training can be done. It is explicit that it be transition training for a Pilot wishing to gain experience in the particular aircraft. No primary training is allowed, and the CFI is even prohibited from signing of a flight review.
 
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(Note CFI can not pad their rate above market, which is $20 to $35 per hour nation wide.)

Do you have a source for this data?

I don't know anything about nationwide, but in Socal, the kid who just got his first job taking orders at the local fast food joint is making $20 an hour. Maybe more. A highly seasoned tailwheel flight instructor charges about 4-5x that, especially when they have a lot of time in the specific aircraft type.

$20 an hour reminds me of the airline pilot I met back in the 135 days who said I couldn't possibly be an actual pilot because no one flying charter makes six figures. I thought he was joking. After all, who does he think is flying those Gulfstreams that pass by him three miles higher up? Then I realized his conception of "charter" was formed solely by experience he'd had a quarter of a century earlier -- some local pilot flying a ancient Apache from one small town to another for a local businessman from time to time.

Regarding the LODAs, there are two different ones. The first is the silly one that the FAA declared was necessary in order to provide any kind of instruction in an Experimental, Primary, or Limited category aircraft. That's the one either the instructor or aircraft owner can obtain by simply sending an email to [email protected].

The other LODA is the one that allows an Experimental aircraft to be rented to a student for the express purpose of transition training. It cannot be used for IPCs, flight reviews, or even tailwheel endorsements. Just transitioning into a new type.

--Ron
 
The other LODA is the one that allows an Experimental aircraft to be rented to a student for the express purpose of transition training. It cannot be used for IPCs, flight reviews, or even tailwheel endorsements. Just transitioning into a new type.

--Ron

What's the correct FAR/AC/FAA Order to reference for this type of LODA and how to apply? Anyone know?


Also, as far as market rate for instructor, the nationwide average maybe 20-30, but a starting instructor around me with a fresh CFI makes around 80/hr. A high hour instructors or specialty instructors are in the 160-200/hr range. So I think there's wiggle room there for setting your market rate.
 
D

Regarding the LODAs, there are two different ones. The first is the silly one that the FAA declared was necessary in order to provide any kind of instruction in an Experimental, Primary, or Limited category aircraft. That's the one either the instructor or aircraft owner can obtain by simply sending an email to [email protected].



--Ron

That particular LODA requirement was rescinded back in December with the publishing of the new NDAA. https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media...gress-moves-to-eliminate-faa-loda-requirement IOW, you no longer have to request a LODA in order to legally receive training in your experimental aircraft.
 
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Just to clarify the confusion.
The ‘new’ LODAs, issued a year and a half ago, are no longer needed.
The ‘old’ LODA, to permit transition training only, in an EAB airplane for which a charge will be made for the airplane, is more than a dozen years old. You have to go to your FSDO to apply. There is a fair amount of paperwork involved. If someone is seriously interested, I kept all the relevant FAA orders, required application materials, etc. PM me your email and I’ll send you a copy. I don’t think it has changed in ten years. Note the LODA is for the EAB owner, who may or may not be also the CFI involved. Note also the typical insurance policy does not cover training others for hire, and coverage is not cheap. This has driven many LODA holders, including myself, out of this business. The business about cfi’s only charging ‘usual and customary rates’ came about because some smart guy(s) tried to cheat, claiming they didn’t need a LODA because their airplane was being supplied free of charge, as long as their cfi fee of $300/hr was paid (!!). This is called ‘fraud’, but is much easier to prosecute if a limit on cfi rates (usual and customary) is explicitly stated.
 
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Just to clarify the confusion.
The ‘new’ LODAs, issued a year and a half ago, are no longer needed
....
Perfectly stated. Thank you. I'll PM you. Thisis making sense now. I alsi talked to EAA and Mike S., Van's prime long time transtion instructor.

Thanks everyone. I did more research as I should have before posting. Doha. :D The replies were great. Very helpful.

Talked to Tom Carpebtier at EAA. And yes you can advertise and charge for plane, but a LODA is required. You will have restricted use for training in your own plane. FAA will need paper work. training syllabus, etc. The plane will have 100 hr inspections....etc, Bob mentioned this above.

Yes insurance is the tent pole. I heard $8000 for an experienced CFI using his RV plane for transition training. That is full meal deal haul + liability.

Tom at EAA also mentioned he's working with insurance companies to give relief for EAB training.

The cost for training with CFI and RV cost total, info is limited, from what I gather, around $150 to $235/hr (more for RV-10). CFI rates alone can be can be $90 to $125/hr.
 
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...

Yes insurance is the tent pole. I heard $8000 for an experienced CFI using his RV plane for transition training. That is full meal deal haul + liability.

Tom at EAA also mentioned he's working with insurance companies to give relief for EAB training.

The cost for training with CFI and RV cost total, info is limited, from what I gather, around $150 to $235/hr (more for RV-10). CFI rates alone can be can be $90 to $125/hr.
~$8,000 insurance rate is close to what I was quoted recently.

Are these AC rates what you know are being charged?? They seem low. I guess the instruction component helps the bottom line, but then you're instructing for ~free.
Some numbers I put together recently - factoring in the $8,000/yr insurance cost - puts you closer to $350 an hour - minimum.
 
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~$8,000 insurance rate is close to what I was quoted recently.

Are these AC rates what you know are being charged?? They seem low. I guess the instruction component helps the bottom line, but then you're instructing for ~free.

Some numbers I put together recently - factoring in the $8,000/yr insurance cost - puts you closer to $350 an hour - minimum.
If this is a full time job with say 150 students a year that is one thing. It would not be full time for me. Figure may be 100 hours dual given in RV's a year. which would be 10 to 20 students. Heck I want to go fly for fun.

Say I have 20 students per year. Say hull insurance no instructions is $3000. So extra $5000 insurance for students for that $8000 estimate quote. OK so that is $250/hr insurance only for 20 students. $150 for the plane and $100 for CFI. This is not out of line for what others charge. That is $500 an hour. Typ min transistion is 5 hours or $2500.

Yes I can cut my CFI rate and plane rate.. I can give my plane away for bare cost to account for FUEL, maintenance cost & time, wear & tear, overhaul reserves... tires, brakes, oil, filter. I suppose fix cost like hanger is a wash since I'd have that regardless. However why risk it. My numbers on wet plane and CFI are not out of line, they low.

EAA says they are working with insurance companies to offer something to Experimental Transition pilot/owners. I think the insurance should be pro rate. You have base hull for personal use only hull. Then a premium based on hours of dual given pro rate. if flying 1000 hrs billable $8000 is not too bad. This is not a flight school situation. They need to adjust their Primmum schedule. RISK IS A FUNCTION OF EXPORSURE OR HOURS FLOWN. If I give 20, 50, 100 or 150 hours risk is a function of time. Also we are talking pilots with license, current flight review, medical and tail dragger endorsed already. This training is ONLY for people who bought a flying RV or an RV kit.[/B]

The obvious option is only give dual in owner pilot RV's. That is fine but not for the guy or gal building that wants to get experience before their plane is flying. Also it is questionable if the owners insurance will allow it. I believe the owner if prudent would vet the CFI with the insurance company and get them added on, at extra cost of course.

Flying owners Phase 1 off for them, with owner to give them experience is not allowed. Yes two pilots can fly in Phase 1 but no instruction. They can ride along as observer I suppose. Some insurance I recall even with experienced RV pilot will not insure during Phase 1. So...

BOTTOM LINE... Many pilots rusty as heck, never flew a high performance plane, will jump in their brand new never flown just finished RV and take off, both the planes first flight and theirs in make/model. That is great, and it may work out. Sadly I have read too many times over decades it does not with tragic results. The reason for crashes early on EAB's builder/pilot are varied. In part it is better because the quality of kits and community. Still transition training would go a long way to lower accidents, which is what the FAA says they want. I assume INSURANCE companies want that as well.

I am not totally discouraged. I am thinking, buy a used RV that is basic, crummy paint, basic panel, not pretty but airworthy as a trainer. It would be easier to justify not insuring a $40K RV verses a $150 RV.

The last OPTION is yes give free flights away, BUT only a 30 min demo at no charge. I would enjoy that. Plant the seed of what it feels like, just as a service to RV community. Again for RV builders only. Again ZERO pay for plane or CFI. Could I do a lot of free flights? No, but if I am going to bore holes in sky I could make the right seat open for a discovery or demo flight. Legal, less risk (as I likely will not allow them to do takeoff and landings) and let them do basic air work. Again only for soon to be RV's and must be current, qualified to fly the plane, not for instruction, no LODA needed. They would benefit from experience. Don't write me as I am not doing this presently.
 
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George, nice summary.
I suspect your estimate of 10-20 transition trainings given in your plane, per year, is high. When I was doing this, a decade ago, I averaged one student per year. Of course there are fewer 10’s than 7’s. The issue was, as you said, insurance cost. It cost more for me (low volume) than airfare/hotel bill to go to one of the high volume guys in WA or TX. Even so, one of the ‘high volume’ cfi’s has privately told me the cost of insurance is making him think about quitting.
Usually insurance companies are happy to cover you in the student’s airplane. They see you as less risky than the student, so they’re happy. But they also see a student in your airplane as more risky than you, so they want more. The general policies for instruction seem geared toward FBO’s and are expensive. At the time I was able to get a trainee as a named insured on my policy for about $400, so that was the way I went. But as I said, you could fly commercially to WA or TX for that. Also, there are some instructors that are willing to train in their aircraft uninsured, either because they’re willing to bear the risk or don’t know that their policy won’t cover dual given. And the students are clueless about this.
Edit. Yes, I too have given some absolutely free (not even lunch) demo rides. It’s fun. I do the landings, though.
 
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Training

In the 50's and 60's starting from zero in a J3 or similar it was very common to solo in 6-8 hours. Now a taildragger checkout in a J3 often takes 10 hours.
Transition training is something that seems to have started with the first two place RV and grown from that.
In the 50s and 60s if one had a reasonable amount of time in taildraggers one simple got in a single place EAB and flew. In many cases no insurance was even available. A lot of Cub category airplanes but also airplanes like the Midget Mustang and the Cassutt, both considered high performance.
The person who makes an excursion off the side of a 100' wide runway with a 172 or Cherokee and does 30k damage is not a desirable candidate for any kind of EAB.
Simply put the REALLY DUMB curve has gotten much steeper in recent years.
 
I welcome the idea that EAA is trying to work with insurance companies to help with this. It is my understanding as of today, US Specialty Insurance Company is the only one that offers dual/instruction coverage for the Experimental category. I was just trying to shop for a better rate, but it seems there is no shopping when there is only one supplier.

This is one of the reasons I have not retired from my full-time job.......
My aircraft insurance addiction!! LOL
 
The last OPTION is yes give free flights away, BUT only a 30 min demo at no charge. I would enjoy that. Plant the seed of what it feels like, just as a service to RV community. Again for RV builders only. Again ZERO pay for plane or CFI. Could I do a lot of free flights? No, but if I am going to bore holes in sky I could make the right seat open for a discovery or demo flight. Legal, less risk (as I likely will not allow them to do takeoff and landings) and let them do basic air work. Again only for soon to be RV's and must be current, qualified to fly the plane, not for instruction, no LODA needed. They would benefit from experience.

Many of us that were earlier RV builders got our pre-first flight exposure to an RV this way because there was no transition training CFI's, or LODA's that would allow for paying someone to do it if they wanted to.
My transition training in 1992 consisted of flying a member of my EAA chapters RV-6A around for about 45 minutes (no landings because of not meeting insurance minimum requirements), and then going and doing my first flight.
Not recommended now a days with the wide variety of better options available.
 
I totally agree with jrs14855. I checked out on my first taildragger C-140 on my solo trip from Palo Alto to Hayward Calif in 1969. Next came an even smaller tail dragger, a Taylor Titch designed by John Taylor for racing and acro. It weighed 750 fully loaded and flying behind a hopped up 85 Continental and the only electronics were the mags and ELT. No starter, battery or radio. Flew from Albuquerque to Tracy California with a couple of sectionals to show the way. Then test flew the first RV-4 in Idaho, off a dusty little dirt strip. Then I test flew my RV-4 at Centennial Colorado in 1989 sans check out by so called qualified instructor. The most interesting and challenging check out was in my Pitts S1S, again a solo venture since the three hours in a Pitts S2B don't really prepare you for that little single seater that wants to bite your tail at landing.

I'm glad I had those days in which less bureaucracy was the prevalent SOP.
 
Airplanes

The only airplane that ever gave me a problem was the Pitts S1S. From the Baby Ace to the Glasair, and J3 to Comanche, none of them ever gave me any trouble. In cases that involved an instructor I knew the airplane far better than the "instructor".
I rebuilt two damaged Twin Comanches before I ever flew one. I knew every nut bolt and screw in those airplanes. The instructor-not much.
In the early days of WWII pilots routinely flew complex four engine bombers and cargo transports with ZERO training. Read the book, start the engines and fly across the Atlantic with only range receiver or maybe ADF for NAV. I knew two of those people.
I think most of the RV transition instructors are excellent. None of them can "fix stupid".
 
In the early days of WWII pilots routinely flew complex four engine bombers and cargo transports with ZERO training.

It’s also true that WWII saw a horrendous fatal accident rate in pilot training - something that would never be acceptable in peacetime.
 
Accidents

The accident rate was high in many areas in WWII. Not necessarily in primary training or even advanced but more in transition training in aircraft such as the P39 and the Martin B26 which were more difficult airplanes.
A member of my flying club was a B24 pilot and had nothing good to say about it.
Some of the WWII airplanes have not done well in the civilian era despite the availability of excellent training. Out of about ten active B17's two have been destroyed in the last few years. The last one was the Dallas airplane, absolutely no fault of the B17 pilots.
I knew one of the WWII pilots who literally went from a Cub to the military when the ink was barely dry on his certificate. He flew 17 different types during the war, mostly N Atlantic ferry flights, no combat.
Bob Buck was a DC3 Captain for TWA when he started flying the Atlantic with cargo DcC3's with no preparation or significant training. He went on to fly the cargo version of the B24, B17 etc. with minimal if any training. His final book, North Star over my Shoulder is one of my favorites.
 
Many of us that were earlier RV builders got our pre-first flight exposure to an RV this way because there was no transition training CFI's, or LODA's that would allow for paying someone to do it if they wanted to.
Ditto. I started my RV career in late 1980's. I got 2 hop in RV's, an RV4 and RV6, total of a little over an hour. The owners were not instructors, just friend. I also got hops in TW planes J3, Aroncia and even a Stearman and T-6. Got my TW endorsement in Citabria. My first flight in my RV4 was uneventful, no transition training. Over the next 12 years, I gave close to 100 demo rides to pilots and non pilots in my RV4. Transition training in part is needed for many reasons, the big ones, an insurance company requirement and second safety. As fun and as nice handling RV's are, no matter how well you and I fly them, many pilots need additional training in RV's to come up to speed.

I'm closing this thread due to extreme thread drift, so called "instructors" and reminiscing how little to no RV training or Tail Wheel training we
had before flying our RV. In my case I was flying a lot, I checked out in a Citabria in 1.5 hrs for my TW enforcement. Private in 40.2. After decades and giving 2000 hrs dual as a CFI in all kind of aircraft, everyone is different. When a student is told they will take 5 hrs to solo because you or others did it in 5 hrs and they do not progress as fast you said, they freak out. Most primary students I recall I soloed in 5 to 9 hours. It took 5 hours to get all the required pre solo FAA skills/task done. You had to be efficient and not waste time. To do proper transition training be it TW endorsement or RV check, it might take 5 or 10 hours.

Even though in the past we were on our own, transition training it would be good, should be available. I believe it would improve the EAB accident statistics. Thread closed. Cheers
 
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