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Airworthiness inspection

DeltaTango42

I'm New Here
My RV9A is just about finished. Time for airworthiness inspection. There is only one DAR in my entire state and he wants a thousand dollars cash. My wife honestly thought it was a scam when I told her. I have called the local MIDO office twice, left messages, they haven't called back, and the FSDO website says they don't do experimental airworthiness certs. The DAR list here hasn't been updated since 2014 (something like that). I e-mailed the DAR in the next state over - no response to that, either. I can't help feeling annoyed. Are you guys really paying a thousand dollars? In cash?
 
In Chicago I used the FSDO. No charge. They were still doing them in 2020, but maybe they stopped. Unfortunately this is what happens when the Govt farms out this work to a small community instead of doing it themselves. Just look at what the DPEs are charging for check rides. Some are well over $1000 for a half day. I did check for DARs in 2019 and they were charging $400 in Chicago. Suggest you look further.
 
$1,200 for an inspection on a RV-4 that had been flying for more than 20 years. Took him about 15 minutes.
 
$1,200 for an inspection on a RV-4 that had been flying for more than 20 years. Took him about 15 minutes.

WOW !!! To me that sounds shameful. I understand the experience needed to reach the level to get the nod from the FAA but $1200 for 15 minutes? There must be more to that story.
 
https://vansairforce.net/dar.htm
This list has a range of $250-500ish but those are mostly 20 years ago rates. Some include travel some do not.
Could be quick, half day or all day. Your car dealer probably charges $150 an hour. I’d bet it’s not a stretch to say $100/hr is an average shop rate (sad that people complain when the Chevy dealer is probably charging more) for maintenance. 4 to 8 hours is $400-$800, for an A&P at the maintenance shop. A DAR is not a run of the mill A&P.

Is someone a few hundred less? Probably. $1000 is not a scam. Put it in perspective.
 

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WOW !!! To me that sounds shameful. I understand the experience needed to reach the level to get the nod from the FAA but $1200 for 15 minutes? There must be more to that story.

Let's not get carried away with "15 minutes" of work. Yes, I think that's high, BUT, besides the experience needed, there is considerable "Government" paperwork involved. The inspection itself is a VERY small portion of the overall time involved in doing a certification!

Travel time, pre-inspection paperwork, post-inspection paperwork, etc. Even the inspection itself, including travel time is almost always an all day affair!

P.S. I don't know of any DAR getting rich off of Amateur-Built Airworthiness Certifications.
 
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Let's not get carried away with "15 minutes" of work. Yes, I think that's high, BUT, besides the experience needed, there is considerable "Government" paperwork involved. The inspection time is a very small portion of the overall time involved in doing a certification!

That's why I said "there must be more to that story"
 
I just received a call from the local MIDO office. They said they would be happy to do the airworthiness inspection. Best news I have heard all day ! It does sound like a fair amount of paperwork and uploading pics and things to their website, but that's all part of the fun.
 
I just received a call from the local MIDO office. They said they would be happy to do the airworthiness inspection. Best news I have heard all day ! It does sound like a fair amount of paperwork and uploading pics and things to their website, but that's all part of the fun.

Congrats on encouraging them to do their job !!
 
Im sure you are happy to be close to flying! I used the Detroit FAA guy to give me my Repairmans Certificate. He was thrilled to get out of the office and look at an experimental plane. I had my Air Worthy Certificate already from Idaho but he asked if he could look over the plane to learn more about experimental planes. He was a nice guy and helpful. He asked if I wanted a "practice ramp check". It was interesting to see what a ramp check was with no pressure. I didnt have one of the required documents so Im happy it was a practice one!

Have fun and if you get over to the Mason area (KTEW), let me know.
 
WOW !!! To me that sounds shameful. I understand the experience needed to reach the level to get the nod from the FAA but $1200 for 15 minutes? There must be more to that story.

Yeah, there is. He tried to tack on another $300 for travel from San Antonio,
 
...He was a nice guy and helpful. He asked if I wanted a "practice ramp check". It was interesting to see what a ramp check was with no pressure. I didnt have one of the required documents so Im happy it was a practice one!...

That's how it used to be when I started as an FAA Aviation Safety Counselor at the FSDO close to the year 2000 (they morphed that program into the current FAAST team now). There still are a few good FAA employees left.
 
The Pittsburgh FSDO did my inspection. They are about 3 hours from my hangar. Contact them and see if they would do yours or maybe they can guide you. Free was very nice!! Looks like you might be closer to them than I am.
 
I considered getting a experimental DAR but after looking the requirements (having to go to OK City for training) I decided it's not worth it. Sort of like having a IA, everyone wants a $200 annual or a free one. I only do annuals for a few friends, that I know don't do maintenance they aren't qualified to do, I've had it with the cheapskates.
Then there was the guy (not a A&P) that decided to change a cylinder on his C-172 right in front of me while I was doing his annual. His reason he could do it was that it was "easy". No it wasn't a supervised cylinder change.
Yes, I told him to get lost.
Funny how people at the airport that ignored me were suddenly my buddies when they found out I have a IA.
I'm going to see if the FSDO will do my soon to be needed RV7 inspection.
 
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CVG FSDO

I just received a call from the local MIDO office. They said they would be happy to do the airworthiness inspection. Best news I have heard all day ! It does sound like a fair amount of paperwork and uploading pics and things to their website, but that's all part of the fun.

Cincinnati FSDO did mine and they were great. Took close to 2 hours reviewing the build. Highly recommend.
 
I paid in that range for a DAR here in California - considering he had at least a half day invested travel, and a hour or two before the inspection making sure my paperwork would be in order, and the hoops he had to jump through to be entitled to make the inspection and provide me the service, I do not feel it was out of line. He made it a very clear and transparent process.
 
So, a little vent here. I’m sure Mel and others are thinking the same, but I’m going to voice it. I’m always shocked at those of you who want a free airworthiness inspection. I’ve seen the results of those free inspections performed by FSDO’S and others. Some had some pretty serious safety things missed, like loose jamnuts at BOTH ends of the elevator control rod. Are they intentionally bad inspections? No. They just don’t know where to look.
I actually spend time training inspectors to help them, but it’s only a few local ones.

Think about it—— you just spent how much time and money building a very complicated machine on which even the BEST builder can overlook something, and that includes experienced people like myself, as I have done it. Missing something at this point can have serious, and even potentially fatal results. I just don’t get it.

As Mel said, we DARs are not getting rich off of this activity. There’s a lot of work behind the scenes, sometimes lots of back and forth phone calls helping with paperwork, etc. It’s a service we provide for personal reasons—- to help make a difference and potentially increase the safety factor. I know for a fact I’ve saved at least a half dozen aircraft from being a smoking hole in the ground, and it makes it all worthwhile.

Just look at the statistics: most of the AB accidents happen during the first 8 hours. Why wouldn’t you want someone else to help identify or eliminate anything that could could go wrong on your airplane???

Vic
 
So, a little vent here. I’m sure Mel and others are thinking the same, but I’m going to voice it. I’m always shocked at those of you who want a free airworthiness inspection. I’ve seen the results of those free inspections performed by FSDO’S and others. Some had some pretty serious safety things missed, like loose jamnuts at BOTH ends of the elevator control rod. Are they intentionally bad inspections? No. They just don’t know where to look.
I actually spend time training inspectors to help them, but it’s only a few local ones.

Think about it—— you just spent how much time and money building a very complicated machine on which even the BEST builder can overlook something, and that includes experienced people like myself, as I have done it. Missing something at this point can have serious, and even potentially fatal results. I just don’t get it.

As Mel said, we DARs are not getting rich off of this activity. There’s a lot of work behind the scenes, sometimes lots of back and forth phone calls helping with paperwork, etc. It’s a service we provide for personal reasons—- to help make a difference and potentially increase the safety factor. I know for a fact I’ve saved at least a half dozen aircraft from being a smoking hole in the ground, and it makes it all worthwhile.

Just look at the statistics: most of the AB accidents happen during the first 8 hours. Why wouldn’t you want someone else to help identify or eliminate anything that could could go wrong on your airplane???

Vic

Vic is bang on here. When I finished my 9A I chose Mel Asberry to come do my inspection because he was/is known for doing a very thorough PHYSICAL inspection of the airplane and not just a paper-chase. My hunnert-dollar butt is sitting in that thing, and if something got missed I want to know about it, which means other pairs of eyes need to look at it - preferably well trained ones.

Yes it cost some money - and it was well worth it - and I'll do it again for the same reasons.

The FSDO guys don't give a flip about the physical condition of the aircraft, they will do your paperwork and look at the airplane and say "Yep, that looks like an airplane" and make sure you have entered your statement in the logbook that it's "in a safe condition"... etc etc and then their butt is covered.

You get what you pay for.
 
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One more comment and then I'll leave this alone;

Isn't searching for a "cheap" DAR similar to searching for a "cheap" Doctor?

Cheap or Thorough, your choice!
 
The FSDO guys don't give a flip about the physical condition of the aircraft, they will do your paperwork and look at the airplane and say "Yep, that looks like an airplane" and make sure you have entered your statement in the logbook that it's "in a safe condition"... etc etc and then their butt is covered.

Hold on a second before you get out the torches and pitch forks….

I totally agree with Vic and Mel that most DAR’s are doing a great job going the extra mile and inspecting airplanes thoroughly, but we should be careful about over-generalizing statements that amount to prejudice without individual evidence. I hear stories from across the country, and there are are DAR’s that paperwhip airworthiness inspections as well - and we have an inspector in our FSDO who ran his own repair station for decades before signing on with the FAA who does an incredibly good aircraft inspection.

Painting every FSDO inspector with the same brush is as unfair as saying that experimental aircraft are dangerous becasue I have seen some that are horribly built. Do your homework, ask around, and find a good inspector…no matter who he (or she) works for, or much (or how little) you have to pay. Most builders will give you an honest story about their inspection/inspector - use that information to make a good decision.

Paul
 
I used the local FSDO and they sent 3 guys out (one in training) and they were all knowledgeable, reasonable, and helpful. The physical inspection took about 1.5 hours and they were just as concerned with my safety, as they were with meeting the regs. Yes, don't paint with a broad brush.
 
So, in 2011, my fsdo told me they were too busy, hire a DAR. I got a recommendation, he charged $700 in 2011 dollars. Worth every penny for my peace of mind. He found a few small things, a couple of ‘paperwork’ things, and we had a frank discussion of a few things that were ‘up to me’ (I elected to follow his advice). A year later, my hangar neighbor finished his -10, called the fsdo, they said ‘Hire a DAR’, he replied that he couldn’t find one, could they please give him a name? The fsdo said that, well, they couldn’t find one either, they would send someone out. Who shows up? My (former) DAR! In the intervening year he had taken a job with the fsdo. So my neighbor got the same, good inspection, for free. He also was spared another trip to the fsdo to get his repairman certificate. Did I feel cheated? Not really. Life isn’t always fair, and I had gotten good value for my $700. The fact that my neighbor got the same for free was his good fortune.
 
A PPL checkride is I think $600 with the DPEs in Wichita now. Honestly, I don't think $1,000 for an airworthiness inspection is out of line.
 
DAR in the Seattle area

I'm looking for a DAR in the Seattle area. Charlie Cotton, the one I and many others have used over the years retired. If you know of one please let me know.
 
Check with EAA Chapter 326 in Puyallup. They do an RV-12 every year in their Teen Flight program.
There is also one in Independence OR, Gary Brown?? I think
 
DAR

In case you were not aware, the one and only Scott McDaniels is also a DAR. He lives close to the Mothership, I'm not sure if he travels to Seattle though.

You won't find anyone more knowledgeable about RVs to perform your A/W inspection. He retired from Van's last year and probably has some time on his hands. ;)

There is also a Designee Locator Search located at https://designee.faa.gov/#/designeeLocator.
 
2020 data point

I worked with an in-state DAR in 2020 for my RV-10 Airworthiness Inspection. The fee was $750 and included about two hours travel for him each way. All of this was as-discussed beforehand and not a surprise. What did come as a surprise is that mine was to be his last inspection before retirement, and he brought with him his successor and a field agent from the FSDO to observe the new guy. New guy also brought with him a couple of very interested students from the Liberty University aeronautics school.

The inspection went well (essentially three pairs of eyes for the price of one) and we had a good time hanging out, letting the students crawl through the plane, etc. I was handed my Repairman Certificate on the spot as well. It did go through my mind that, with the availability of the FSDO guy on that date, (I had been told previous to hiring the DAR that the FSDO was booked many months out and not to count on them) I could have gotten the AI done "for free" if only the FSDO guy had been involved. But I guess he would not have been "available" if not for the need to train and sign off on the new DAR candidate.
 
$1000.00 in today’s economy generally includes travel time , however the FAA used to do as part of taxes we pay, found very convenient to slough off to DAR,
and let them take heat !
 
$1000.00 in today’s economy generally includes travel time , however the FAA used to do as part of taxes we pay, found very convenient to slough off to DAR,
and let them take heat !

Yes, and there is a definite ‘dark side’ to the trend over the past few decades to ‘privatize’ as much as possible. As a cfi, students never ask me about DPEs who are ‘tough but fair’; they ask, ‘who is easy’. This doesn’t help safety at all. Meanwhile, the ‘easy’ DPEs make money, the ‘tough but fair’ guys don’t. The financial incentive is backwards.
 
In case you were not aware, the one and only Scott McDaniels is also a DAR. He lives close to the Mothership, I'm not sure if he travels to Seattle though.

You won't find anyone more knowledgeable about RVs to perform your A/W inspection. He retired from Van's last year and probably has some time on his hands. ;)

There is also a Designee Locator Search located at https://designee.faa.gov/#/designeeLocator.

Thanks Tony

Another resource (though I am not sure how up to date it is) that is a list of DAR's likely to have specific RV experience / interests since it is located here on Dougs site

https://vansairforce.net/dar.htm
 
I recently paid a DAR $600 to do my airworthiness inspection and I consider it money well spent. He did a thorough examination, answered all my questions about the operating limitations, and was even able to accommodate a last-minute change to my test area.
 
Yes, and there is a definite ‘dark side’ to the trend over the past few decades to ‘privatize’ as much as possible. As a cfi, students never ask me about DPEs who are ‘tough but fair’; they ask, ‘who is easy’. This doesn’t help safety at all. Meanwhile, the ‘easy’ DPEs make money, the ‘tough but fair’ guys don’t. The financial incentive is backwards.

[Rolivi steps on to the soapbox]

I can speak to that on the DPE front. My CFI for my primary was TOUGH. It was well known that there were two ways to fly a plane, HIS way and the WRONG way,

Some people hate that, I liked it. My checkride was easy-peasy. I was over-prepared for HIS high standards and once my jitters subsided (~30 mins) the oral went another 1.5 hours or so. Then the DPE said, "Let's go flying." I knew then and there I was a PPL. The airwork (when properly over-prepared) becomes a nothing burger real fast.

The DPE I used had a reputation as a killer. I have friends who have flagged IR and CPL rides with him, all claiming he was too tough. That's another badge of honor for yours truly. I used the tough CFI and DPE!

Fast forward 10 years, the tough CFI is now a DPE. I'm finishing up IR and who do I want to sign me off? You got it, the tough guy.

At my local field I was talking to a CFI who said a lot of their students were going to next state for checkrides because of availability. I said, "Have you tried getting on "HIS" calendar? She said, "No, he's got a reputation for being unfair"

Net of it all? Not all Designees are the same. If the lives of you, your family, and friends are depending on your skills and knowlege would you prefer a tough review OR do you accept minimum standards?

[Rolivi steps down from soapbox]
 
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You guys don't know how good you have it.

We do not have the option of getting a local IA to do the entry audit as there is currently no provision for this in our rules. These are completed by a member of the NZCAA Certification Team. They are charged out at an hourly rate of about $300/hr. I will give them credit to the way they operate in that they try to provide an excellent service and amalgamate as many inspections as they can in a region to reduce costs. I waited 6 weeks for them to arrive.

My entry audit cost just under $2,500. While it would be nice if it were less, the cost is understandable when you consider the on-site process took a full day and I have no doubt there were several days of pre and post-site visit paperwork to be done. It is not a five minute job.

Having the choice to pay $1,000 to get a DAR to sign you off without having to wait too long or getting it free but having to wait a couple of weeks for the local FSDO office to do the job sounds like options we would love to have.
 
I know of a designee that is a hard arse, it's his way or nothing but unfortunately his way is incorrect. Just because someone has a reputation of being tough doesn't mean they know what they're doing.
Recently there was a instructor that was teaching primary students that ALL airport patterns were right handed. Seriously. He saw the example of a right handed pattern in a FAA publication and took that as the way it's done. This guy also had a problem with English.
By the way the school that person worked for shut down after they had a twin doing instrument work and a single with a PPL student have a mid air in the practice area. Both planes belonged to the same school. That was very sad and pointless.
 
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Seattle FSDO

I'm looking for a DAR in the Seattle area. Charlie Cotton, the one I and many others have used over the years retired. If you know of one please let me know.

Hey Ben. A guy from the Seattle FSDO did my 9A inspection in 2014. He did a thorough job as far as I was concerned. He even found an issue. (missing cotter pin on elevator trim) The only challenge I had was getting through the bureaucracy to contact the actual person that can do the inspection. Not everyone at the FSDO seems to know about all the services provided by the FSDO. If you are interested I can dig up his name.

The other thing to consider, is that at least for me, I hired out the first flight to a very experienced RV pilot and A&P. He did a very thorough inspection (his butt was going to be in the seat, after all) before doing the first flight, and charged me $500 for the whole thing. So the FSDO inspection was backed up by the inspection done by the person that did the first flight.

One other comment to others. While $1000 is probably a reasonable price. By the time I got to the inspection, I was experiencing traumatic spending fatigue. At the time I was contemplating the DAR fee, I had just recently paid the fair use tax. Both of these are costs that may take you a little by surprise, if it is your first build. So getting something for your tax dollars can be appealing.

Michael-
 
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My RV9A is just about finished. Time for airworthiness inspection. There is only one DAR in my entire state and he wants a thousand dollars cash. My wife honestly thought it was a scam when I told her. I have called the local MIDO office twice, left messages, they haven't called back, and the FSDO website says they don't do experimental airworthiness certs. The DAR list here hasn't been updated since 2014 (something like that). I e-mailed the DAR in the next state over - no response to that, either. I can't help feeling annoyed. Are you guys really paying a thousand dollars? In cash?

Hmmmm, I recently raised my prices due to inflation, more FAA oversight, etc,
I charge $425.00 plus travel. Likely no more price increase for a couple of years. (Mostly Pacific Northwest, but can go anywhere).

DAR Gary
 
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