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Disadvantage of automotive paint?

M McGraw

Well Known Member
Friend
I wonder what are the disadvantages of using a single stage automotive urethane paint for my aircraft.

The advantage is its easy to get locally and color matching later would be very easy. I assume it would be heavier because of a larger solid content; however, are we talking 2 lbs or 10 on an aircraft like the -14? Is it as durable and abrasion resistant?
 
Most of the big players make paint for aviation, why not use it?
Hopefully Dan will chime in - he'll know your answer.
 
It's the same paint. The only reason it's heavier is that typically auto body paint shops apply more paint. They're not concerned about weight.
Poplawski, one of the best known aircraft painters of all time has been using Sherwin Williams auto paint for many, many years..
That's assuming that he hasn't changed recently.
 
Marvin, my local paint shop has the Matrix System. The only advice they had for me was that prepping aluminum was a little different than prepping auto steel. They had me use a etching primer for the aluminum. After that it was the same paint and process they use on classic cars.
 
Primer

What I forgot to say is I have already done the etch with sandpaper, red scotchbrite pads, and a small amount of chemical. Then I primed with the 2 part AKZO Nobel epoxy primer, wonderful stuff! Now I just need to sand and scuff the primer for the color coat.
 
Although acrylic enamel isn't as popular these days, it wears like power coating! Tough stuff. Looks pretty good when polished. Relatively easy to repair or repair versus color/clear. Make sure you put on enough the be able to cut and polish afterward.
 
Marvin, DanH's tutorials on cut-n-buff are spot on. I tend to allow myself to be a just a little heavy so I have ample depth. Practice of some scrap or small pieces to get comfotable with the volume of paint and with the cut/buff process.

What am I saying! You've got that beautiful cruiser I'm your hangar! You're good to go!

Single coat it fine. Buff-n-polish is you're friend. I'd like to drop in again soon and see you're progress! We can talk paint and panels :)
 
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Marvin, DanH's tutorials on cut-n-buff are spot on. I tend to allow myself to be a just a little heavy so I have ample depth. Practice of some scrap or small pieces to get comfotable with the volume of paint and with the cut/buff process.

What am I saying! You've got that beautiful cruiser I'm your hangar! You're good to go!

Single coat it fine. Buff-n-polish is you're friend. I'd like to drop in again soon and see you're progress! We can talk paint and panels :)
Drop in. I'll be in the hangar for two weeks other than a short weekend trip to Kentucky.
 
Keep in mind that aviation paint is really made for jets which see large and rapid temperature changes. Our little RV's really don't see that challenging of a duty cycle.
 
I used auto paint, base coat clear coat, it's a lot of work but I am pleased. I have used both, for rv I think auto paint is just fine. Preparation is vital.

Bird
 
I used single stage auto paint on my -10. No complaints from me on the quality and durability of the product. It's very EZ to touch up also.
 
Would be interesting to hear how many years on these testimonials...none mentioned so far. I think I'd be convinced after 10 to 20, not 2 to 3....?
 
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Would be interesting to hear how many years on these testimonials...none mentioned so far. I think I'd be convinced after 10 to 20, not 2 to 3....?

You mean like a car that sits in the sun most of it's life? Or, our RVs that spend most of their life in a hangar?

If you plan to leave your plane tied down outside, plan on repainting it every ten years, no matter what (decent) paint you use.

I used SW Ultra 7000 automotive base/clear. Top of their line. Very nice paint system. Also, the folks at the local SW dealer were nice and helpful as opposed to the jerks at the DuPont dealer!

Remember, good prep is 80% of the job. If you skimp there, we'll, don't blame the top coat.
 
Would be interesting to hear how many years on these testimonials...none mentioned so far. I think I'd be convinced after 10 to 20, not 2 to 3....?

Just go to a parking lot at the mall and look at the cars. Cars have a much tougher life than an airplane. Airplanes get pampered. Washed after each flight, kept in a hangar, and total hours outside may be 2000 - 4000. That is less than 6 months.

I have a 12 year old Explorer that I love. It has never spend one day or night in a garage. It has spent many, many days covered in snow, mud, ice, bird cra p, and has been washed so many times (rain) that I can't even guess. The only thing that really looks nice is the paint!

The only difference is how thick the paint is applied and how it is cured. We don't all have access to robots to paint everything evenly or an oven to bake the finish hard.

I will be using auto paint for my plane because it has proven itself for a long time as a great way to protect and customize it.

Edit - Hey Mike - how did you copy me before I even posted!! Ha!
 
Disadvantage of automotive paint

My RV4 has been painted for seven years with DuPont urethane single stage paint. The finish is extremely slick and shines as good as any paint out there. With that said, my biggest complaint is that the paint will stain, especially the white. Bugs can leave a stain, the grime on the belly will stain the paint, and fuel will leave a stain. I think the biggest advantage of a poly-urethane paint may be its stain resistance. I wish I had spent the extra $$$ on a higher quality paint. I do not relish the thought of repainting my airplane one day.
 
single vs base clear

I paint cars for a living-

We paint both single stage and Base clear.

if you're going with a solid color- as in no metallics or pearls. Single stage is a good choice IMO-

exceptions- RED- ORANGE- YELLOW- especially red- fades much quicker in a single stage job.

The reason- single stage can't be polished if it isn't solid.

Even though SS is a thicker paint its going to weigh less but this all depends on how many coats and who is painting etc.

We use Sherwin williams ultra 7000 and also Dimension line. As others have said prep is critical and staying out of the sun is the best protection. Brand isn't as critical as Prep and who is spraying. If you're going to polish- wet sand up really high at least 2000 or higher to make polishing easier.
 
Single stage Imron on mine. It does bug stain, but the stains seem to disappear over time. My neighbor has 22 years on his SS Imron and holding up well. I heard/ read somewhere auto paints may be less chip resistant and less resistant to fuel and oil and other aircraft fluids.
 
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Just go to a parking lot at the mall and look at the cars. Cars have a much tougher life than an airplane. Airplanes get pampered. Washed after each flight, kept in a hangar, and total hours outside may be 2000 - 4000. That is less than 6 months.

The only difference is how thick the paint is applied and how it is cured. We don't all have access to robots to paint everything evenly or an oven to bake the finish hard.

If UV were the only issue you're correct, but it's not. A plane can go from 110? to 60 in a few minutes and back again a couple times a trip. Cars don't, usually, hit bugs and rain drops at 200 mph, nor flex their panels doing aerobatics, get blasted by other's prop wash, etc. etc. I know some love the auto products, I just don't see why not use the same brand's aviation products?
:confused:
 
Would be interesting to hear how many years on these testimonials...none mentioned so far. I think I'd be convinced after 10 to 20, not 2 to 3....?

My RV-6 was painted in my backyard shop with PPG Concept single-stage polyurethane automotive paint in May of 1999:

http://thervjournal.com/paint1.html

finsh203.jpg


The paint still looks great and often gets compliments from folks who can't believe it is 15 years old. It gets washed a couple of times a year and the gloss is very close to 'new' after its bath.

399SB-11.jpg


My hangar mate's RV-6A was professionally painted at about the same time with base/clear and we haven't seen any difference in gloss and abrasion resistance between the two systems over the 15 years.

Single stage is a great option for the non-professional painter because it is so easy to fix flaws. It is also easy to repair because there is only one stage and it can readily be color sanded and buffed to blend in the repair.

I had about $800 dollars in materials in my paint job (1999 dollars).

[thread moved to RV General Discussion because this thread doesn't need to disappear in two weeks; S. Buchanan]
 
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PPG Delta

My RV4 has been painted for seven years with DuPont urethane single stage paint. The finish is extremely slick and shines as good as any paint out there. With that said, my biggest complaint is that the paint will stain, especially the white. Bugs can leave a stain, the grime on the belly will stain the paint, and fuel will leave a stain. I think the biggest advantage of a poly-urethane paint may be its stain resistance. I wish I had spent the extra $$$ on a higher quality paint. I do not relish the thought of repainting my airplane one day.

Dan Mauer (has painted 800+ planes and many RV's) painted my Cozy, he uses PPG Delta single stage specifically because it won't stain, Avgas, bugs, you name it. It's nice not to have to worry about that.
Tim
 
[thread moved to RV General Discussion because this thread doesn't need to disappear in two weeks; S. Buchanan]

I got a good chuckle out of this comment. I started this thread in the temp section because I thought it would be of little interest to others. I do believe the many comments are swaying me towards single stage urethane automotive paint because I can get it locally and match it locally for eventual repairs over time.

My last aircraft was jetglo. It was a wonderful paint, but I had difficulty getting matching paint in small amounts.
 
My first LongEZ was painted with SS Imron in 1982, and and in most areas it looks as good as it did when fresh. Most of it's life is in the hangar, but I'm guessing it's spent 1,000+ days and nights in the sun/rain/snow... Some of the wet look sheen has gone, but from 5' it looks like brand new. I've painted 5 homebuilts with SS Imron polyurethane, and intend to use urethane SS on the 14.

I think the Dupont Imron formula changed years ago, but I understand the original that doesn't spray well with HVLP equipment is available as truck paint (not auto paint)
 
Ditto what Sam said. I painted my RV6 in 1995 (19 years ago) with single stage PPG Deltron. Still looks great.

n241dcatsezDL.jpg


It gets washed once a year and has never been waxed.
 
If UV were the only issue you're correct, but it's not. A plane can go from 110? to 60 in a few minutes and back again a couple times a trip. Cars don't, usually, hit bugs and rain drops at 200 mph, nor flex their panels doing aerobatics, get blasted by other's prop wash, etc. etc. I know some love the auto products, I just don't see why not use the same brand's aviation products?
:confused:

You are right on all of your points. My thought is almost all paint research done for cars since they are where the money is. My next door neighbor owns a high end body and customizing shop in Aspen. Some of the cars he paints probably get everything but the prop wash! Talking with him, he said there wasn't any or little difference other than the cost. He may not have wanted to get into detail with me because I am no expert and wouldn't understand anyway.

It is all comfort levels. My 9A will not be hitting the high speeds or dancing in the sky so I will be using auto paint. One of the big considerations for me is being able to go to auto zone and pick up touch up paint.
 
What I forgot to say is I have already done the etch with sandpaper, red scotchbrite pads, and a small amount of chemical. Then I primed with the 2 part AKZO Nobel epoxy primer, wonderful stuff! Now I just need to sand and scuff the primer for the color coat.

Marvin ive done exactly the same prep as you send me an email [email protected] and ill give you the low-down on advice i have received specific to painting over the akzo. I plan to colour coat with Alumigrip which is another AKZO product due to the excellent experience so far with the primer and also therory of sticking with one system and supplier for all paint?

There are many ways to skin the painting cat, the rep has given me exception service and advice (sometimes on weekends) so im going to stick with AKZO system personally.

Id also be intsrested in hearing other opinions youve receivex about coating over AKZO.
 
Another thought for builders to ponder......it is a good idea to hold off on treating/priming exterior surfaces until you have decided which finish system you will be using. Modern top finishes work best when combined with primer that belongs to the same system.

The builder who is going to paint his own plane can make this decision early in the build, but if the plane will be professionally painted it is good to leave the exterior untreated so the painter can apply primer appropriate for the finish he will be using.

But even it painting the plane yourself, you might consider holding off on exterior primer until ready to paint. Epoxy primers don't need to be sanded if the top coats are applied within a specified window, usually 48 hours or something similar. Polyurethane finishes develop maximum durability when each stage chemically cross links and this occurs within a specified time window.
 
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I decided to go with automotive paint

Thank you to everyone that provided input to this thread. I finally decided to go with an automotive single stage urethane. Mostly because it is readily available locally. That will make future repairs easy.
Vertical, horizontal, elevators, trim tab complete. Flaps, ailerons, and rudder have the base white complete. Flaps will have 6 inch black strips on the bottoms. Rudder will have 3 inch black checkerboard. Ailerons will have charcoal grey and black stripes. The red is Dodge Viper red. The white is Pepsi white, but I had the yellow removed so only black and white components. The Charcoal grey is a metal flake and the black is gloss black. Not as conservative as my last plane. :). These pictures are before the cut and buff.

I purchased two cheap engine stands from Harbor Freight. I plan to cut and weld them into a rotisserie for the wing painting and fuselage build.

Why did I paint before completing the plane? Simple, I've run out of parts until my fuselage kit arrives. Yes, there are disadvantages. Again, I ran out of parts. :)
http://
nn1y6f.jpg

http://
dpzl1s.jpg

http://
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Nice! If you get bored, feel free to wander out my way. Wings nd empennage are in a storage unit, I'll give you the key and my compressor.

:)

What brand of paint did you use?
 
PPG Concept DCC

I used PPG single stage DCC concept based on the following:
1. Local support and availability of expertise from English Color & Paint store
2. Did not have the funds for a professional paint job
3. Good reviews on VAF and other sites about the ability of the builder to actually lay down the paint and the tools/process required
4. Dan H's excellent thread on the Cut & Buff process which I used extensively due to orange peel and runs which were difficult to see and eliminate in my particular painting environment (Bright white color, not enough situational lighting, assembled aircraft and metal hangar in the dead of winter).
5. Ability of PPG DCC to address the entire process (metal etching, primer, flash times and temperature adjustment) with good spec sheets for the entire process.
6. Ability to mix and buy paint in various quantities for touchup and redo etc
7. Ability to redo and blend repairs at a later date (recently had to fix a ding in the wingtip).
8. Saw the specific white I liked on a builders site and he had graciously posted the PPG paint code :)
It is a simple paint scheme and I used vinyl graphics for the stripes so all in all it worked out well for me. So far (3+ years) there are no issues with bug or fuel stains and the finish still looks good. (picture on blog link below)
If I was to have the plane professionally painted then of course it would be the painters choice about the process they were most comfortable with.
 
Nice! If you get bored, feel free to wander out my way. Wings nd empennage are in a storage unit, I'll give you the key and my compressor.

:)

What brand of paint did you use?
Dale,
Thank you for the keys to your locker and compressor:). If only Nebraska were closer.

Now, to answer your question about the type of paint. First, please understand I am a complete amateur and this is my first attempt at painting. After completing the metal work I hired my neighbor, a HotRodder paint and body guy, to teach me how to do the fiberglass. It was awesome, he was very patient and an excellent teacher. The fiberglass parts were eventually primed with a Dupont 2K epoxy primer to help with the pinholes. When it came time to paint he offered me his discounted price if I bought the paint from his buddy at the auto parts store. The paint they carry is DuPont Nason. The discount was significant. I am not suggesting Nason is the best paint it was simply a good deal. He thinks Dupont Chroma something is a better paint, but Nason should be good. He won't use imron anymore because they changed the formula a few years ago. I think there are other good brands available this is simply what I used.
 
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I used that cheap car paint too....proper prep and put it on in controlled conditions and its fine. No cut/buff for me though.

 
Very few certified GA piston aircraft are actually painted with a true "aircraft" paint. I have talked to some of our aircraft painters at work and their suggestion was to paint my RV with automotive paint. To the best of my knowledge, the only disadvantage of automotive paint vs aircraft paint is the aircraft paint is much more chemical and solvent resistant. This is not an issue for an aircraft that does not have a hydraulic system that uses phosphate ester based hydraulic fluid. A definite advantage of automotive paint is reduced application thickness and reduced weight. Most true aircraft paints are high solids epoxy paints that are very thick and heavy. Those who say that aircraft paint does not fade as fast as automotive paint must not work on aircraft every day and see the effects that the sun has on really tough paints such as Sherwin Williams Jet Glow.
 
Why use auto paint

Most of the big players make paint for aviation, why not use it?
Hopefully Dan will chime in - he'll know your answer.

Why not use it (aviation paint)? Because you can't buy it anywhere local. Shipping is expensive. And there are no single stage metallics in aviation paint like in auto paint.
 
Which Automotive paint

I used single stage auto paint on my -10. No complaints from me on the quality and durability of the product. It's very EZ to touch up also.

Which automotive paint did you use? I'm considering Nason because it is single stage urethane with both solid and metallic colors.
 
Nason

Which automotive paint did you use? I'm considering Nason because it is single stage urethane with both solid and metallic colors.

I used DuPont Nason single stage urethane. One advantage for me as a newbie is that I can get it mixed locally and I am painting as I build so I've needed to purchase more along the way.
 
Question of topic....

Why do builders often wait to paint their airplane? I was thinking it would be much easier to paint the plane in my shed outside the house before moving to the airport for assembly.

I can understand the thoughts on scratches but is that all or is there more to concern oneself with as far as leaving the paint till the test flights complete?
 
I think a lot of it is waiting to see if there will be anything discovered during flight test that requires some sort of surgery which would screw up paint.

Have people pre-painted and flown successfully? You bet. There are valid arguments for either course so it is a personal choice.
 
Of all the airplanes I've built, the RV-6 was the only one I flew before painting.
I will NOT do that again. Aggravation of taking a flying airplane out of the sky for weeks. Aggravation of getting it super clean. Just not worth it.
 
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+1 for DuPont Nason Fullthane. That's what is on Tony Boy, and it's tough as nails. It went through the tornado and sat outside in a pile baking in Georgia sun in a junkyard for 2 months with duct tape all over it. I cleaned the last of the duct tape off 3 years later and the paint was unscathed. I'll repaint it with the same stuff.
 
I also used the Nason paint. It goes on good with little orange peel and the paint continues to flow out long after you have completed the paint job. The paint will become smoother and flatter over time. I did not have to do any color sanding or buffing and the paint is smooth as glass. The airplane still looks great after 8 years and 600+ hours. It is has been hangered all its life though. I think a secret to a smooth finish is to thin the paint a little more and use a slower drying reducer. This allows the paint to flow out better due to the the slower drying time. The down side is you can get more runs if you really pour the paint to it and you can get more trash and bugs in the paint before it sets up. Those are called nibs and can be sanded or buffed out if needed. With all of this said, my only complaint with this brand of paint, in particular the whites, is that it will stain if you leave grease and oil on the surface for any length of time (such as the blow by on the belly of the plane). Auto fuel will also turn the paint brown (auto fuel is nasty stuff but that is another story). I wonder if a clear coat over this paint would have prevented the staining.
 
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Nason Automotive Single Stage Urethane

I'm painting now. I'm using Nason paint available at local automotive stores. The single stage urethane has Technical Data sheets that match aviation paint with no impact of MEK or other solvents, once cured.

Empennage is done. Wings in process. Wheel pants done. It is going well. Nason provides a whole system from etch primer to sandable primer, to solid and metal colors. Flows nice. Very shinny.

Biggest advantage is getting it locally, with no shipping.
 
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