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Need advice--major oops using offset rivet set.

B

bobhope2505

Active Member
Can one of you more experienced types take a look and tell if I need to replace this part? The offset rivet set rotated and then slipped off the rivet head and hit the aluminum several times. The shop head came out fine. Is this enough damage to require replacing the part? This is the VS-705 nose rib.

 
bobhope2505 said:
Can one of you more experienced types take a look and tell if I need to replace this part? The offset rivet set rotated and then slipped off the rivet head and hit the aluminum several times. The shop head came out fine. Is this enough damage to require replacing the part? This is the VS-705 nose rib.
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That sort of depends...I assume from the picture (though I might be way off here) that is on the horiz stab? If so, then first reference or opinion should be from the horses mouth at the mother ship (Vans). Sometimes those types of deals aren't a big problem (if it's not a particularly structural part), but other times it can be quite important). I'd call Vans and see what they say.

On a side note, do you have tape on your rivet set? Sometimes that'll help a little bit....

Cheers,
Stein
 
I dunno about the parts, but throw away the offset rivet set. I was too dumb to ever figure out how to make the dang things work.
 
bobhope2505 said:
It's the lower nose rib for the vertical stabilizer. After some thought I did send the photo to tech support.
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Ahhhh....I was at least at the right end of the airplane, I "missed it by that much"!! :)

Good on ya for asking Vans...I'm confident you'll get the right answer from them. Alex is also right, put a long straight set in the gun and save yourself some aggrivation.

Cheers,
Stein
 
A long straight set wouldn't help because both ends of the rivet are guarded by rib flanges, but that gives me an idea if I do have to replace it. Since there are no rivets installed on the sides yet, I could have simply bent the rib up an inch or two to get the obstructing flanges out of the way and used my straight set. I'm trying to follow the directions precisely, but I think I need to work more on creative problem solving.
 
bobhope2505 said:
A long straight set wouldn't help because both ends of the rivet are guarded by rib flanges, but that gives me an idea if I do have to replace it. Since there are no rivets installed on the sides yet, I could have simply bent the rib up an inch or two to get the obstructing flanges out of the way and used my straight set. I'm trying to follow the directions precisely, but I think I need to work more on creative problem solving.
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Frequently one can deflect things enough to get a decent shot at it with a straight one. Anything is better than those offset rivet sets.
 
AlexPeterson said:
I dunno about the parts, but throw away the offset rivet set. I was too dumb to ever figure out how to make the dang things work.
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I've messed up my share of metal with an offset set, but I eventually found that I have to have a partner to buck, and use my free hand to hold the tip of the set on the rivet. It came in really handy riveting the aft flanges of the baggage ribs to the F-706 bulkhead after joining the center and aft fuselage sections.
 
Think you can find anything on the Internet? I Googled "how to use an offset rivet", then searched Youtube----nothing! No one in the entire Internet world is willing to video themselves using an offset rivet set!
 
longranger said:
I've messed up my share of metal with an offset set, but I eventually found that I have to have a partner to buck, and use my free hand to hold the tip of the set on the rivet. It came in really handy riveting the aft flanges of the baggage ribs to the F-706 bulkhead after joining the center and aft fuselage sections.
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Agreed, once I had a partner bucking and held the offset with an "iron fist" it worked well.
 
Use electrical tape to hold the set in the gun. Wrap it tight enough to hold the set from turning. This will solve most of your problems.
 
Tom Martin said:
Use electrical tape to hold the set in the gun. Wrap it tight enough to hold the set from turning. This will solve most of your problems.
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Well, I can be satisfied with VAF today, I learned something. My offset success is very low. This is now on my "determined to learn this skill" (or else) list! Right now, it is avoided and feared.

Thanks Tom.
 
Ar you guys talking about an offset, or a double-offset? I have been using the double-offset quite a bit this past week while riveting the seat and baggage ribs. I have found two things that help. First, turn the air pressure up 5-10 PSI to make up for the increased mass of the rivet set. Second, you can't be shy about holding pressure on the gun. I had a few smilies (which did not leave ME smiling) trying to use it on wing ribs. You gotta show the gun who's boss, or it will bounce off the manufactured head and the results are not pretty.

I've never used a regular offset (one bend) rivet set. That looks like it would take a lot of practice.
 
DaleB said:
Ar you guys talking about an offset, or a double-offset? I have been using the double-offset quite a bit this past week while riveting the seat and baggage ribs. I have found two things that help. First, turn the air pressure up 5-10 PSI to make up for the increased mass of the rivet set. Second, you can't be shy about holding pressure on the gun. I had a few smilies (which did not leave ME smiling) trying to use it on wing ribs. You gotta show the gun who's boss, or it will bounce off the manufactured head and the results are not pretty.

I've never used a regular offset (one bend) rivet set. That looks like it would take a lot of practice.
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I was bad-mouthing the double offset. I could get good looking rivets, but if you mark the hole center line prior to driving the rivet, you may find that the head has shifted (sheared) in the hole. This would seem to not be a good thing.
 
The oracle from Aurora has spoken:

"This very minor ding doesn't merit any worry, nor replacement."

I connected with a tech. adviser in my area and he had the same suggestion as Tom--use tape.

I also didn't think to turn the pressure up. The large set did take a lot longer which upped the odds of a mistake.

Thanks all.
 
Electrical tape is a bit stretchy, duct tape works better. Spiral wrap tightly from the end of the gun over the spring and onto the set.

Stewart Willoughby
6, finishing
 
Throw the spring away, I just use electrical tape to hold all sets in. The spring often gets in the way against bulkheads, thus pushing the gun that much off of line. I have not used the spring, except for my swivel set, for the last 15 to 20 years.
It only takes about a foot of electrical tape to secure the set, pull it tight, stretch is your friend!
 
Tom Martin said:
Throw the spring away, I just use electrical tape to hold all sets in. The spring often gets in the way against bulkheads, thus pushing the gun that much off of line. I have not used the spring, except for my swivel set, for the last 15 to 20 years.
It only takes about a foot of electrical tape to secure the set, pull it tight, stretch is your friend!
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I disagree.
The spring makes the tool safe.
If you tape to the spring (I do this my self BTW), the spring can be rotated to adjust the aim of the set while you are working.
I only leave a spring off when it does interfere. I put one back on as soon as it is no longer an issue.

Duct tape makes a big difference..... makes it possible to operate the gun with just one hand.
 
There are a million "right" ways of doing these jobs. Try lots of different methods and do the one that works best for you.
safe? if you treat the rivet gun like the power tool it is there should be no safety issues. Eleven springless airplanes and counting.
 
Ok Ron, you are making me nervous. I most certainly would not want someone to get hurt. In the spirit of safety I decided to have some fun and see what kind of damage I could do by shooting a rivet set out of my Sioux 3X gun.
I stood about four feet back from my wheel barrow of ash firewood, with 50 psi set on the gun.
I loaded the -4 straight rivet set in the gun. No spring, no tape, the set firmly pressed back, the gun in a horizontal attitude.
With a bit of trepidation I pulled back on the trigger. The set shot out about two feet and dropped on the floor. hmmm

I then opened the door to the shop and with my thumb and forefinger holding the set in place I aimed the gun at an old Locust tree, about 15 feet from the door.
I pulled the trigger and held the set as long as my fingers could stand it, a couple of milli-seconds, and then let it go.
The set flew straight and true for about 8 feet.
Clearly I needed more pressure.
At 100 psi I repeated the Locust experiment a few times and 12 feet was as far as I could get the set to go. The tree is safe.
So there you have it. I think that it would be fun if more of you would try this experiment and see how far can you get it to go? Perhaps my technique is wrong?
 
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Tom Martin said:
Ok Ron, you are making me nervous. I most certainly would not want someone to get hurt. In the spirit of safety I decided to have some fun and see what kind of damage I could do by shooting a rivet set out of my Sioux 3X gun.
I stood about four feet back from my wheel barrow of ash firewood, with 50 psi set on the gun.
I loaded the -4 straight rivet set in the gun. No spring, no tape, the set firmly pressed back, the gun in a horizontal attitude.
With a bit of trepidation I pulled back on the trigger. The set shot out about two feet and dropped on the floor. hmmm

I then opened the door to the shop and with my thumb and forefinger holding the set in place I aimed the gun at an old Locust tree, about 15 feet from the door.
I pulled the trigger and held the set as long as my fingers could stand it, a couple of milli-seconds, and then let it go.
The set flew straight and true for about 8 feet.
Clearly I needed more pressure.
At 100 psi I repeated the Locust experiment a few times and 12 feet was as far as I could get the set to go. The tree is safe.
So there you have it. I think that it would be fun if more of you would try this experiment and see how far can you get it to go? Perhaps my technique is wrong?
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I think you are missing the point Tom.
Instead of comparing it to a regular fire arm may I suggest you try this test.

- Lay the rivet gun (with a rivet set fully inserted but no retainer spring installed) on the edge of a work table with the set pointed off the edge of the table.

- Stand directly adjacent to the table, and in the line of fire of the rivet gun (like you might when you are actually working at the table). This would put some part of your body no farther than 6" from the end of the rivet set.

- Reach for the rivet gun and pull the trigger while it is still in the previous position on the table.

- Report back the result. (I.E., painful irritation of hip bone, leg muscle, crotch area, etc.).

I imagine in advance your response might be "don't lay a rivet gun on a table like that"

My response would be "that is why they are called accidents instead of on purposes"
 
Ok, I tried that, exactly as you described.

I started at 6" with cardboard, nothing. Then a series of body parts.
With anything over an inch away there is NO pain. If you get really close to the gun, for example with a spring on it, or tape, or nothing, then yes you will get hurt.
It is a dangerous tool up close, regardless of how the set is retained. On that I think we can agree.

Try your test, and report back with the result.
 
I was thinking of the alum. part it could hit and what would become of that. Plus I was kidding, I like doing that.
 
Rivet guns are dangerous? No.....bucking bars are the real killer in this equation. Drop one from two feet on a toe and see what happens!:D Or how about drills? Heck, I've hurt myself more with a file than rivet gun. Personally, I only use the spring with the flush set while doing skins, any other set and its taped in and has never been an issue.
 
This is an old but good discussion that will be in the sheet metal section of the wiki so re posting the original picture as photobucket pics tend to go away after a while.
 

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