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How to understand this part of operating lims

hevansrv7a

Well Known Member
Which item controls? Number 10 or number 11? My aircraft is equipped for night flight. And is past phase one.
 

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Which item controls? Number 10 or number 11? My aircraft is equipped for night flight. And is past phase one.

MY understanding is that #10 applies during phase 1, and 11 applies once complete. If you are complete and are equipped per 91.205 then you can flight at night as well as IFR.

Other's may have a better/different understanding, if so I'll stand by to be educated.
 
11 controls IF you meet the criteria outlined in 91.205.

(c) Visual flight rules (night). For VFR flight at night, the following instruments and equipment are required:

(1) Instruments and equipment specified in paragraph (b) of this section.

(2) Approved position lights.

(3) An approved aviation red or aviation white anticollision light system on all U.S.-registered civil aircraft. Anticollision light systems initially installed after August 11, 1971, on aircraft for which a type certificate was issued or applied for before August 11, 1971, must at least meet the anticollision light standards of part 23, 25, 27, or 29 of this chapter, as applicable, that were in effect on August 10, 1971, except that the color may be either aviation red or aviation white. In the event of failure of any light of the anticollision light system, operations with the aircraft may be continued to a stop where repairs or replacement can be made.

(4) If the aircraft is operated for hire, one electric landing light.

(5) An adequate source of electrical energy for all installed electrical and radio equipment.

(6) One spare set of fuses, or three spare fuses of each kind required, that are accessible to the pilot in flight.
 
Yep, as long as your equipped per 91.205 vfr night and IFR flight is allowed. For vfr day most ops limits don’t specify 91.205. 91.205 in the regs applies to standard airworthiness certificates which we don’t have.
 
As has already been stated, Paragraph 10 pertains to Phase I.

Paragraph 11 clearly states "After completion of Phase I flight testing..."
 
As has already been stated, Paragraph 10 pertains to Phase I.

Paragraph 11 clearly states "After completion of Phase I flight testing..."

I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this. There must be some art to reading these that I'm missing, because it seems like a large leap of faith to assume that paragraph 11 supersedes 10. I'd expect 10 to read "Until the completion of phase 1 testing...." if that's what these really mean.

I don't doubt your interpretation, but wow....
 
I'm having trouble wrapping my head around this. There must be some art to reading these that I'm missing, because it seems like a large leap of faith to assume that paragraph 11 supersedes 10. I'd expect 10 to read "Until the completion of phase 1 testing...." if that's what these really mean.

I don't doubt your interpretation, but wow....

Well you can take it up with FAA Headquarters in Washington. These Operating Limitations are written by them and inspectors cannot change the wording.

These Op Lims were issued in May of 2013, under FAA Order 8130.2F. Current Op Lims are issued under 8130.2J.

If you would like to have the most recent Op Lims, you may have your's amended by your local FSDO or a DAR.

Later Op Lims have Phase I and Phase II somewhat separated.
 
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I agree with Ravenstar. The limitations seem to be written with the intent to confuse. I expect better from the Agency
 
I agree with Ravenstar. The limitations seem to be written with the intent to confuse. I expect better from the Agency

Sounds like you haven't been around aviation very long.
 
I agree with this, however I think a comma after 10 and include the text from 11 in the same paragraph would make it clear.



As has already been stated, Paragraph 10 pertains to Phase I.

Paragraph 11 clearly states "After completion of Phase I flight testing..."
 
Well you can take it up with FAA Headquarters in Washington. These Operating Limitations are written by them and inspectors cannot change the wording.

These Op Lims were issued in May of 2013, under FAA Order 8130.2F. Current Op Lims are issued under 8130.2J.

If you would like to have the most recent Op Lims, you may have your's amended by your local FSDO or a DAR.

Later Op Lims have Phase I and Phase II somewhat separated.

Fortunately (?) I'm not at this stage yet, though I'd be asking for clarification in writing if I thought it were going to be an issue. I suspect this isn't the kind of thing the FAA would jump on fixing, at least until it came up in a case.
 
Seems clear...#10 states a fact, #11 states an exception to that fact.

It's actually quite nice that the exception follows the statement.... for a lot of regs, it's an easter egg hunt to find the exception.
 
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Seems clear...#10 states a fact, #11 states an exception to that fact.

It's actually quite nice that the exception follows the statement.... for a lot of regs, it's an easter egg hunt to find the exception.

I see where you're coming from though I was under the impression the regulations make clear what are exceptions, even if they're quite distance from teh original rules. I think simply the fact that we've had this conversation shows it's definitely not clear to everyone and I imagine the response you'd get from showing this to a lawyer would be quite amusing.

I'm a computer programmer, and if these were rules given to me to code, I'd omit #11 entirely because #10 leaves no alternative for the aircraft to be operated any way other than day VFR. At the very least, I'd ask for clarification.
 
This "Problem" was clarified with the change to FAA Order 8130.2H in February of 2015 by separating Phase I from Phase II in the Op Lims.

When I issue an Airworthiness Certificate, I have the applicant carefully read the Operating Limitations, and ask questions. Many people have a couple of questions. I don't ever remember anyone asking for clarification on this particular matter, and I have issued more than a few Airworthiness Certificates since 1999. (1,080 to date)

Again, If you are unhappy with your Op Lims, you may have them amended to the latest version by your local FSDO or a DAR.
 
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This "Problem" was clarified with the change to FAA Order 8130.2H in February of 2015 by separating Phase I from Phase II in the Op Lims.

Mel, thanks for this reference, it makes much more sense to me now. May I ask one point of clarification since the document is so long? Are the phase I/II limitations now grouped in the issued operation limitations as they are in Appendix C?

I appreciate your patience with my silly questions.
 
Mel, thanks for this reference, it makes much more sense to me now. May I ask one point of clarification since the document is so long? Are the phase I/II limitations now grouped in the issued operation limitations as they are in Appendix C?
I appreciate your patience with my silly questions.

YES! I thought I said that in my last post.
 
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