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  #41  
Old 09-25-2022, 10:54 AM
RV74ME RV74ME is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Auburn, AL
Posts: 264
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rvanstory View Post
Steve, your plane is beautiful!!! Congratulations and great job and getting it across the finish line. You did a super job!

Now for some venting......

I'm always amazed at some of the reactions to those of us that paid the price to have Jonathan paint our planes. I got the same type of reactions after winning Reserve Grand Champion at Sun N Fun in 2021. I was super proud of my plane, yet the response to my award on this forum was the accusation that I wasn't a "real builder" because I paid such big money to have someone else build my plane. As if painting the plane is the only test of whether or not you're a "real builder".

If paying a vendor to complete some portion of your plane makes you less of a builder, I'm curious, where is the line drawn? Do you need to stitch your own leather in the interior? Do you need to machine your own pistons and build your own engine from scratch? Does buying an interior accessory from Aerosport Products disqualify you? Heck, for that reason, does buying a Van's kit disqualify you? After all, can't you buy aircraft aluminum and cut and shape and drill your own holes for a lot less money? Wouldn't that make you a "real builder"?

We all choose different paths to complete our planes. But paying a quality vendor premium dollars to complete the paint does not disqualify anyone from the title of "builder".

Again, congratulations Steve!!! You're plane looks awesome and you deserve our admiration as a true "builder"!

Thank you Randy, and everyone for the compliments!

I respect everyoneís opinion and took no offense to the criticism. Itís all good. Someone mentioned personal pride and satisfaction, and that is exactly what it boils down to for me. I took a lot of personal pride in my workmanship and didnít want that to get lost in a mediocre paint job. Not that I need to explain that to anyone. But it was an easy decision going with Jonathan and I couldnít be happier. Perhaps even more importantly, my wife is happy too!
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  #42  
Old 09-25-2022, 11:48 AM
wirejock's Avatar
wirejock wirejock is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Estes Park, CO
Posts: 5,871
Default Judging

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
An old debate.

In the not distant past, most homebuilders would have sided against any sort of pro-built participation in aircraft judging, the exception being warbirds. Twenty years ago I recall a phone conversation with senior authority regarding how we should handle the issue at regional fly-ins. At the time, the view was shifting, due to an avalanche of builder assistance. It's now accepted practice, and in truth, it has been very good for the community.

So no, in this new age, the purchase of services does not disqualify. But my friend, please remember, those who do everything themselves may quite rightly take considerable pride in their hard-earned results. It's not unreasonable to express that pride, so please don't take offense.
I love to admire those airplanes and wish I had the bank account for a professional paint job that beautiful.

That said, Dan brought up a point I was curious about.

How do the judges evaluate amateur builder vs pro work?
What if a super well built airplane doesn't have a fancy pro paint job or any pro builder assist? Doesn't it deserve recognition. Isn't that what it's about?
I'm just wondering how they judge one against the other.

I've been told my Lucy is excellent workmanship, by several Technical Counselors, but I am not giving her a killer paint job nor can I afford to pay anyone else to do it.
I better think twice about having Lucy judged. Her feelings might be hurt.
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E-mail: wirejock at yahoo dot com
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Donated 12/2022, plus a little extra.
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  #43  
Old 09-25-2022, 12:40 PM
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cgeyman cgeyman is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Location: Missoula MT
Posts: 314
Default Hey Larry

Dan H shows that mere mortals can do great paint work (though I think he has some professional background in the area). I would agree that they should give points for a home-built painter. Dan H might know the politics of it. With the price increases in kits, engines and avionics, it sure takes a lot of skimping to keep things affordable for most of us. 😊🛫. A 180,000$ kitplane is beyond most of us.
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  #44  
Old 09-25-2022, 12:57 PM
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Ironflight Ironflight is offline
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Dayton, NV
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wirejock View Post

How do the judges evaluate amateur builder vs pro work?
What if a super well built airplane doesn't have a fancy pro paint job or any pro builder assist? Doesn't it deserve recognition. Isn't that what it's about?
I'm just wondering how they judge one against the other.
Why speculate? You can read the EAA judging manual for yourself:

https://www.eaa.org/airventure/eaa-a...cbd953322.ashx

Truth is, once you read it, you might still wonder about how some of the standards are applied, because there is always room for interpretation.

Iíd also suggest that a discussion on EAA judging standards belongs on the EAA boards (DRís rules), and probably not on a thread started by a fellow who simply wanted to show a fabulous paint jobÖ.

Paul
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  #45  
Old 09-25-2022, 02:44 PM
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DanH DanH is offline
 
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Location: 08A
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironflight View Post
Why speculate? You can read the EAA judging manual for yourself:

https://www.eaa.org/airventure/eaa-a...cbd953322.ashx
....specifically page 12, Form A, line 9.
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  #46  
Old 09-25-2022, 03:46 PM
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wirejock wirejock is offline
 
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Location: Estes Park, CO
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Default Posting

My apologies. Feel free to delete my post.
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E-mail: wirejock at yahoo dot com
Builder Blog: http://wirejockrv7a.blogspot.com
Donated 12/2022, plus a little extra.
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Disclaimer
I cannot be, nor will I be, held responsible if you try to do the same things I do and it does not work and/or causes you loss, injury, or even death in the process.
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  #47  
Old 09-25-2022, 05:53 PM
abwaldal@gmail.com abwaldal@gmail.com is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Battle Ground WA
Posts: 620
Default

Half dozen years ago my son and I were talking about me buying a new $50,000.00 high cube van for working out of.
I'm since retired.
I was balking at the cost and spending the money.
He goes::: Well either you buy the van and enjoy it or you're going to end up just giving it to me. (When I die of course)
Guess what??? I have a new van, and a new car and another new car, and another almost new Nissan 370Z for tooling around in.
My luck is better than yours. Maybe cause I worked harder. Who knows.

I say, WooHoo!!!! get the paint job you want. You only get to live once.
Oh ya I will be painting my next airplane cause I like painting
Art
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  #48  
Old 09-25-2022, 10:01 PM
PhatRV PhatRV is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: KAJO
Posts: 975
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wirejock View Post
How do the judges evaluate amateur builder vs pro work?
What if a super well built airplane doesn't have a fancy pro paint job or any pro builder assist? Doesn't it deserve recognition. Isn't that what it's about?
I'm just wondering how they judge one against the other.

There is a recent EAA webinar about judging at Air Venture. The judges no longer ask because planes can be judged while you are not present at the airplane. If the builder present the proof of his/her/couple hard work, all is good. But the judges don't ask, and they don't want to be the arbiter to the level of construction. My opinion is pro-help is better for safety and I wish the FAA allows for it. From my memory of the recent EAA Lindy, the only notable truly builders are the Falco that was built from plans, the miniature B17, and the Breezy. All these builders didn't win any grand prize. Paint quality is an important judging criteria, along with leather interior, and impressive instrument panel.
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  #49  
Old 09-26-2022, 06:48 AM
Larry DeCamp Larry DeCamp is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Clinton, Indiana
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Default Abwaldai comment observation

For us guys not working anymore or raising kids, it is not conspicuous consumption to spend your money. I have never seen a brinks truck in a funeral procession ! It has no value where you are going.
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  #50  
Old 09-26-2022, 07:58 AM
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rvanstory rvanstory is offline
 
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Location: New Braunfels
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanH View Post
...please remember, those who do everything themselves may quite rightly take considerable pride in their hard-earned results. It's not unreasonable to express that pride, so please don't take offense.
I can't agree with you more. Dan, I am a huge admirer of you (and others) on this forum. Your knowledge, experience and intelligence FAR EXCEED mine and your insights have helped me immensely during the build as it does today owning and maintaining my RV. I am not offended when a builder with superior skills expresses pride in what they have done. I actually applaud and celebrate that fact right along with them!

My only request for those that are superior in skill and knowledge, is that they not take away another (less capable) builders pride in what they were able to accomplish with limited skills. After 4 years of riveting every rivet, sanding fiberglass for 100's of hours to get body lines just right, or spending numerous hours making sure the control surfaces line up exactly with flaps and wingtips across both sides when neutral, I (and others like me) also take great pride in calling ourselves a "builder". Some posts (not yours) suggest you're not "real builder" if you didn't paint it. Many of us are not "painters", but we are still very proud to call ourselves builders.
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