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"All About Oil" Webinar summary

erich weaver

Well Known Member
I listened in on the "all About Oil" webinar the other evening that was presented by Mike Busch, of "Savvy Aviator" fame - Google and check him out if you are not familiar with his credentials. Thought I would pass along some highlights from his presentation:

OIL TYPES
Mineral (petroleum-based) oil is better than synthetic oils with respect to suspension of particuates, and also seals better

Synthetic oils have superior (less) friction characteristics and are longer lasting than mineral oil.

As long as we are relying primarily on leaded avagas, we cant take advanage of the benefits of synthetic oils. Our engines run rather dirty, and the oil has to be drained often to get rid of lead and particulates. Also, the superior lubricity offered by synthetics is less important in piston aircraft due to the relatively large clearances and slow RPM compared to turbine engines.

Multigrade oil offers faster lubing during cold starts.

Monograde oil offers better corrosion protection, as it is not as thin at room temperatures and will stay on parts longer.

Corrosion is the #1 reason for failure to make TBO. There is very little wear during steady-state flight conditions. The longer an engine sits between starts, the more wear/corrosion will occur due to lack of oil on mvoing parts. Engines are typically not worn out, they are rusted out! Therefore, monograde oil is preferred over multigrade unless you anticipate unpreheated, subfreezing cold starts. Alternatively, you could use multigrade in the cold season only.

Aeroshell W100 is the recommended monograde; Phillips x/c 20W-50 for multigrade use

Aeroshell 15W50 is specifically NOT recommended; this is a 50% synthetic blend and will not be as effective in suspending/removing particulates

ADDITIVES
Ashless dispersants (AD oils) are in oils to suspend particulates. There is no evidence to indicate that engines do not break-in as well using AD oils.

"Microlon" / /"Slick 50" NOT recommended; a Teflon product that is potentially harmful according to a NASA study. Dupont, where Teflon wasdiscovered has specifically said that Teflon should not be used in oil

"Avblend": no harm, but no demonstrated benefit either

"ASL Camguard": Recommended! Some reduction in wear, but very effective in reducing corrosion, even more so than the additives that are included in the Aerosehll Plus and Exxon oils, although those are good as well.

"Lycoming 16702": An antiscuff, boundary layer additive, same as used in the Shell 15W-50/Exxon Elite products. Effective, although Mike prefers Camguard. Regardless, if you are using the Phillips x/c 20W-50 oil, use either Camguard or the 16702 additive.

"Marvel Mystery Oil": Some effectiveness in unsticking valve lifters and not harmful, but otherwise not recommended as a standard additive.

OIL LEVEL and CONSUMPTION
"normal" consumption is quite variable; 1 qt in 4-20 hours is fine; do not want less than this as it may mean oil is not circulating properly. No advantage to having full oil. Pay attention to changes in oil consumption however, as this could mean future problems

All engines will run fine at half of maximum oil capacity, and most at less than half. 2/3 capacity, or 5-6 qts in an 8 qt engine is recommended (8 qts in a 12 qt engine; 1 additional qt if your oil consumption is high.

Air-oil separators are NOT recommended; they can hide important symptoms regarding oil consumption and also makes it hard for engine to purge itself of acids etc.

OIL CHANGES
If using spin-on oil filter, change oil at no more than 50 hrs or 4 months; change at 25 hrs or 4 months if only using a oil screen. If significant metal found at oil change, reduce to 15-20 hr intervals.

Try to not let the engine sit with dirty, old oil; change it before a period of disuse rather than after.

Cut open the oil filter at every oil change or least at each annual. A small quantity of metal, approximately 1/8 tsp. or less is normal; more than this should be investigated further

If significant metal is found, send in to lab for analysis (about $100). Aviation Laboratories in Kenner, LA is recommended.

Oil analysis for microscopic wear metals can provide early warning of wear events. Blackstone Labs in Ft. Wayne, Indiana is recommended.

GENERAL:
Ideal oil temperature is 180-200F; definitely want it above 170 to boil off water. Temperature on gauge is typically the temperature of the oil during the coldest part of its circulation cycle; temperature is typically about 40 degrees higher at hottest part of cycle, hence the above 170 requirement. Since water boiling temperature decreases at higher elevations, lower temperatures may be ok at altitude.

If engine not to be run for 6 months or more, a preservative oil ("pickleing oil") is recommended. Fill sump with preservative oil; fly or run up engine and then shut down. Install dessicant plugs and place dessicant bags in air intakes and exhaust.

Pre-heating of engine to minimize wear at startup should be done any time temp is at 32F or lower. Starting without preheat at 20F or lower is a very severe wear event.

Lycomings are susceptible to wear on cams and lifters due to their high position on engine and difficulty in getting oil to these parts. Use of a Nay Nozzle (sp?) that squirts oil on cam shaft can help this. Installation of the nozzle would have to be done at engine build or upon tear down, but is relatively cheap and worthwhile.

Next webinar: "All About Cylinders", October 5 (free)
http://www.savvymx.com/webinar

Mike can be reached for questions at [email protected]

regards
erich
 
Sticky!!! No pun intended...

Wow Erich, thanks for that summation! I wanted to do the webinar, but didn't have time!
Kudos to you for typing this up.
 
Thanks, you just saved me a quart of oil each change, and gave me an additional 10--15 hours between changes.

That equals more fuel $$$:D

Gonna make this a sticky, for easier finding in the future.
 
15/50

I'm a little mixed up about "15/50 not being recommended". At the top of Lycoming's list of lubricants is 15/50. I started using it when it was first introduced, in the mid 80s and at the same time, a bulletin issued by Lycoming stated that using it is forbiden,
My experience was lower consumption and cooler oil temps. and now Lycoming has 15/50 on top of the list. What happened?:)
 
15w-50

Shell 15w50 is OK but I like the ExxonElite 20w50 better. The idea that synthetics don't suspend particles is not true. All synthetics are not the same.In general, synthetics have a natural detergency or the ability to suspend particles.Extra detergents or dispersants don't necessarily have to be added to the oil blend. Only Shell knows what percentage synthetic the 15W50 is. When it first came on the market there were problems with seal swelling in CS props because Shell hadn't done their homework on the seal swell properties of the oil. They have corrected this problem. I've been using synthetics since the mid 70's and they work fine with leaded fuel....we still had leaded fuel in cars back then. What doesn't work in airplanes is a 200-hour oil change just because the oil is synthetic. Special filtration is available for land and water vehicles that can extend oil drain intervals but without this filtration the normal airplane oil change intervals should be followed. One nice property of a synthetic not usually mentioned is the ability to withstand much higher temperature and still keep lubricating...
 
Your claims are contrary to those of a very experienced and widely recognized authority. Opinions are fine of course, and perhaps you are entirely correct, but I am left wondering if you have experience that goes beyond your own personal use or perhaps some literature that backs up what you are saying. I would also encourage you to watch the webinar if you haven't already so that the reasoning and logic details that I left out of my summary below are clear.

Best regards,

Erich
 
The webinar made the following points:

1. Synthetics: OK but not worth the extra cost since we change our oil frequently in aircraft piston engines. In other words we don't need the extra oil life.

2. Multi-grades: are inferior to single grades in corrosion protection since they do not "cling" to metal parts as long after the engine is shut down. Avoid them for this reason unless the temperature requires multi-grades for cold weather starting. In that case use Phillips.

I found that when I went from Philips multi-grade mineral oil to Shell 100W at the end of my engine break in period, the oil took much longer to drain into the oil pan after flight. When I shutdown with the Phillips, I could check my oil level immediately. With the Shell, it takes a few hours to get a good reading on the dip stick. This indicates (as stated in the Webinar) that the single grade Shell sticks to metal parts much longer than the muli-grade Phillips.

-John

>Shell 15w50 is OK but I like the ExxonElite 20w50 better. The idea that synthetics don't suspend particles is not true. All synthetics are not the same.In general, synthetics have a natural detergency or the ability to suspend particles.<
 
Metal

Don't know about you but if I got a 1/8 tea spoon of metal out of my filter I would be pulling my engine apart to inspect before further flight.
Bob
 
The webinar put on by the maker of Camguard the other day agreed with most of the points I read in the report at the beginning of this thread, EXCEPT, oil change intervals.

In the Camguard webinar it was stated that one of the biggest mistakes made by Lycoming was in changing their recommended oil change interval from 25 to 50 hours when they started using filters instead of screens. It was also stated that most of the beneficial additives in the oil that help prevent corrosion are evaporated away by about 25 hours of operation...

Filters do not take out the acids or water from the oil.

That was one of the main points I took away from the Camguard webinar, 25 hours is about maximum interval, and additives can be replenished when you add a quart of oil. Some Camguard can be added each time oil is added.

Reading about the significant wear at startup and the benefits of the oil squirters or ney nozzles, makes me want to have the ability to squirt the cam down with oil prior to startup....

Randall
 
In the Camguard webinar it was stated that one of the biggest mistakes made by Lycoming was in changing their recommended oil change interval from 25 to 50 hours when they started using filters instead of screens. It was also stated that most of the beneficial additives in the oil that help prevent corrosion are evaporated away by about 25 hours of operation...

Filters do not take out the acids or water from the oil.

I take issue with this for a number of reasons. #1, I would be somewhat more likely to believe this if it were coming from someone not trying to sell more of their own product. #2, There has been quite a bit of testing with automotive bypass filtration systems (Amsoil, for one) where the oil has gone 100K or better and oil analysis has been done on the oil and found that the oils are still good and the makeup oil added replenishes lost additives, and #3 if there's no water in the oil there's no way for acid to form. Not getting oil temps high enough to allow water to evaporate is the solution rather than trying to depend on additives to do the job is the better route.

I've also seen the insides of an engine on Camguard that had rust so I'm not a big believer that it does some magical things they claim it does.
 
I take issue with this for a number of reasons. #1, I would be somewhat more likely to believe this if it were coming from someone not trying to sell more of their own product. #2, There has been quite a bit of testing with automotive bypass filtration systems (Amsoil, for one) where the oil has gone 100K or better and oil analysis has been done on the oil and found that the oils are still good and the makeup oil added replenishes lost additives, and #3 if there's no water in the oil there's no way for acid to form. Not getting oil temps high enough to allow water to evaporate is the solution rather than trying to depend on additives to do the job is the better route.

I've also seen the insides of an engine on Camguard that had rust so I'm not a big believer that it does some magical things they claim it does.

Bypass filters work very well in every application I have tested them in. However none of them remove water or organic acid from the oil.

Organic acids come from the oxidation of blow-by fuel and does not depend on water to form. Organic acids pit the hard steel in our engines quite nicely.

There is always a lot of water present in aircraft oil as it is present in the blow-by. Most oils can hold 1000ppm of water and Exxon Elite can easily hold much more because of their dispersant viscosity modifier. You should get the oil temperature up to 180-210F but remember that the underside of the pistons are over 250F.

It was the head of Lycoming engineering that told me the worst thing they ever did was to increase the oil change interval to 50 hours with the addition of a full flow filter. All this did was to increase their warranty claims.

Do you have any additional information on this Camguard engine that you saw rust in? I would have expected a phone call from an upset owner.

Ed
 
Last edited:
Regarding the acidity on aircraft oil, Blackstone Labs published this article a few months ago:
http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Aircraft/July-1-2013.php

Interesting reading, to say the least!

Here is a case of not understanding the chemistry of aircraft oil (versus automotive oil). In aircraft oil a Total Acid Number (TAN) of 2 IS VERY corrosive because of the small organic acids formed by the oxidation of blow-by fuel in aircraft engines.

With the help of Blackstone we determined the TAN went up 1-1.5 points per 25 hours depending on the engine. Without any acid neutralizing capacity, aircraft oil will not protect hardened steel (cams and lifters). It will pit along grain boundaries and pitting leads to stress risers and spalling.

Ed
 
Do you have any additional information on this Camguard engine that you saw rust in? I would have expected a phone call from an upset owner.

Ed

I do have pictures of significant rust and pitting on the cylinder walls. This particular engine is owned by a friend and I do all the work on it. It has Reiff cylinder band heaters and I found bands of rust on the cylinder walls directly underneath them.

In this case the engine was on Camguard and that was enough for me to deduce that it did not prevent rust in an accelerated rusting scenario like this one.

Over the years I have found that the engines that run on plain old Phillips X/C are the cleanest with the least amount of varnish or carbon deposits.

Over the summer Blackstone had a nice write up in one of their newsletters and the particular quote from this article parallels my general observations.

http://www.blackstone-labs.com/Newsletters/Aircraft/July-1-2013.php

"Oil is oil. We still stand by that today. The oil guys would have you believe otherwise, but brand really does not seem to make a difference in how your engine wears, or how often you can change your oil."
 
Choose the one that the colour of the bottle is preferred by your wife/daughter or next door neighbour. :D

Only caveat, use an aviation oil. If using Camguard, it is better in all but the shell 15w-50 according to Ed.
 
In the Camguard webinar it was stated that one of the biggest mistakes made by Lycoming was in changing their recommended oil change interval from 25 to 50 hours when they started using filters instead of screens. It was also stated that most of the beneficial additives in the oil that help prevent corrosion are evaporated away by about 25 hours of operation...

Filters do not take out the acids or water from the oil.

That was one of the main points I took away from the Camguard webinar, 25 hours is about maximum interval, and additives can be replenished when you add a quart of oil. Some Camguard can be added each time oil is added.
My practice on my personal plane(s) is to change the oil every 25 hours and the filter every other oil change. Oil is cheap (relatively). Engines are expensive. This is what I recommend to my customers as well. I use Phillips X/C 20W-50 with CamGuard. I usually take a couple of extra quarts from the case and open hem up and add about 1.6oz of CamGuard to each quart and write a ?C? on the cap to show it has CG in it and I recommend to use those when adding oil to keep the recommended amount of CG in the oil.
 
Lucas Oil

Any thoughts on using Lucas Oil Heavy Duty Oil Stabilizer as an oil additive to an O-360 to protect the cam from corrosion?
 
Oil weight question - Aeroshell W100 or 120?

I just purchased a new (to me) RV-8 and am loving it so far. Ferried it from the DC area to Las Vegas just a couple of weeks ago and had the RV grin the entire way. I'm coming up on an oil change and had a couple of questions. The OP thread is super informative BTW.

Since I live in Vegas with summer coming up and average temps will be in the 100F+ range pretty much through Sept, would I be correct to assume that running the W120 oil would be best? Or would the W100 be fine too?

Also, having read up - it seems like the W100 plus or W120 Plus with the 16702 additive is appropriate for a Superior 0-360. Any issues there?

I know this is an old thread, but appreciate any advice. Thanks!
 
Congrats on your new airplane purchase! That's really exciting. I'll be glad to share my opinion on oil. I live in Phoenix and fly year-round, even when it's 110F here. I use W100 Plus with Camguard, regardless of temperature. I preheat the oil in the "wintertime" (if you can really call it winter here...) My opinion is that you really can't go wrong with W100 Plus. The Camguard might be overkill with the "Plus" additives already in there, but it makes me happy so I do it. :)
 
Congrats on your new airplane purchase! That's really exciting. I'll be glad to share my opinion on oil. I live in Phoenix and fly year-round, even when it's 110F here. I use W100 Plus with Camguard, regardless of temperature. I preheat the oil in the "wintertime" (if you can really call it winter here...) My opinion is that you really can't go wrong with W100 Plus. The Camguard might be overkill with the "Plus" additives already in there, but it makes me happy so I do it. :)

Thank you. I'll go ahead and buy some of the W100+.
 
My practice on my personal plane(s) is to change the oil every 25 hours and the filter every other oil change.

This is absolutely brilliant- can't believe I never thought of it. I usually try to stick to the 25 hour/4 month interval due to the acids....and feel like it's a waste to change the filter with ~20 hours on it.

Great piece of advice- totally worth the price of admission!
 
I just purchased a new (to me) RV-8 and am loving it so far. Ferried it from the DC area to Las Vegas just a couple of weeks ago and had the RV grin the entire way. I'm coming up on an oil change and had a couple of questions. The OP thread is super informative BTW.

Since I live in Vegas with summer coming up and average temps will be in the 100F+ range pretty much through Sept, would I be correct to assume that running the W120 oil would be best? Or would the W100 be fine too?

Also, having read up - it seems like the W100 plus or W120 Plus with the 16702 additive is appropriate for a Superior 0-360. Any issues there?

I know this is an old thread, but appreciate any advice. Thanks!

Also in Vegas.. I use multi grade in the winter.. it gets cold at night! You in HND or VGT?
 
Also in Vegas.. I use multi grade in the winter.. it gets cold at night! You in HND or VGT?

VGT.

Yeah, I'll probably change to a multigrade in the winter. It do get cold here. But for now, I think I'm going to go with the W100+ to get through the summer.

BTW - holy **** is this airplane fun to fly!!!
 
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