What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Avionics decision

Davea320

Well Known Member
I'm at the point in the build where i need to decide on an avionics package. i realize I'm going to open up a can of worms and the issue has probably been discussed ad nauseam, but I'm looking for opinions from those that have been here before how and why they chose their particular set up. Im looking for "light ifr" without vhf nav. Im not planning on hard ifr so the gps only route is what I'm looking at. I visited the main vendors at Oshkosh and Im leaning toward the Advanced avionics package. I like the advanced control module, electronic circuit breakers and checklists. I also like that they are a small company in comparison to Garmin with good personal customer service.

That said, i also like the garmin panels i saw and all the features they contain. However i am concerned a little about the Garmin install without the advanced control module. Any and all opinions/experience are welcome as I know pilots are very passionate about their reasons for their choice. I would especially like to hear from anyone that has flown/installed both set ups.

thanks in advance for your input

dave
 
The same issue we all have, or will face.

I suggest you get a lot of opinions and decide what is important to you. Some thoughts:
- I would ignore the various things like advance control modules and electronic circuit breakers (these are just add ons that may or may not be of value - I don’t use them). First decide on what system you want (Garmin, SkyView, Advanced, GRT). They all have check lists as well. I’m a SkyView guy and have built four dual screen installs to date - point being you can build this yourself.
- The harder part is the TSO GPS navigator. All four SkyView panels use the GTN-650 as I considered it the least bad of all the overpriced TSO GPS options - until now. The new plane will have the Garmin GNC-355 GPS/COM. All the function of the GTN-650 other than VOR/LOC/GS.
- I suggest that getting the larger screen GPS navigators (like the GTN-750) is a waste of money. Even with the larger screen the SkyView (or whatever) display is what you will always use - other than fat fingering in the multiple flight plan changes from ATC. For that the I find the GTN-650 size display is just fine.
- I recommend getting a COMM #2. For the panels I installed I used three Dynon remote mounted radios and one Garmin GTR-200. I found the GTR-200 was not the best option.
- For the new plane I’m hoping the TRIG TS56 NAV/COM will be out. For a few dollars more than just a second COM you get VOR/LOC/GS as well. You never know, the “light IFR” trip you do may not turn out as planned.

Carl
 

Attachments

  • popcorn.gif
    popcorn.gif
    441.1 KB · Views: 1,976
I just went through this.

My research seems to indicate that the only one you don't want is a GRT for the following reasons:

Their documentation is significantly lacking.
They don't have a canbus or network cabling system. This means everything must be directly connected to everything else it communicates with. The other systems use a system where you connect everything in a chain or hub configuration and all displays can talk to every other box. For example, if you have a garmin g3x and a g5, both can talk to the AP servos over the can bus, and if the G3X dies, your g5 takes over.

When at OSH this year, I picked up the following:

The advanced flight systems seems to have a lot of options/features and lots of buttons. Think of it like the Nikon or Windows compared to the Dynon which is more the canon or mac which tends to be simpler but polished.

The garmin is kind of like running one of their handheld GPS units but in a 10" display with lots more features.

I was able to find what I was looking for with all three pretty quickly without training.

If you are planning to run a garmin navigator then I suppose it makes sense to run all garmin, but if you go with dynon or advanced flight, I think they can sell you an avidyne navigator at a discount.

Honestly, I don't think you can go wrong between the three of them. I'm installing garmin because I plan to use a garmin navigator and because I like their documentation and prefer their dc motor/clutch AP servos over the stepper motor setup of dynon.

Price wise, garmin is the most expensive, but not by a lot.
 
I'm at the point in the build where i need to decide on an avionics package. i realize I'm going to open up a can of worms and the issue has probably been discussed ad nauseam, but I'm looking for opinions from those that have been here before how and why they chose their particular set up. Im looking for "light ifr" without vhf nav. Im not planning on hard ifr so the gps only route is what I'm looking at. I visited the main vendors at Oshkosh and Im leaning toward the Advanced avionics package. I like the advanced control module, electronic circuit breakers and checklists. I also like that they are a small company in comparison to Garmin with good personal customer service.

That said, i also like the garmin panels i saw and all the features they contain. However i am concerned a little about the Garmin install without the advanced control module. Any and all opinions/experience are welcome as I know pilots are very passionate about their reasons for their choice. I would especially like to hear from anyone that has flown/installed both set ups.

thanks in advance for your input

dave


I did a 3 screen G3X touch, GTN 650 (since upgraded to the GTN 650Xi), VPX Pro electronic CB's, and had Approach Fast Stack make the Harnesses. No regrets at all , and love the capabilities that an all Garmin panel provides:).......
 
Careful

The same issue we all have, or will face.

I suggest you get a lot of opinions and decide what is important to you. Some thoughts:
- The harder part is the TSO GPS navigator. All four SkyView panels use the GTN-650 as I considered it the least bad of all the overpriced TSO GPS options - until now. The new plane will have the Garmin GNC-355 GPS/COM. All the function of the GTN-650 other than VOR/LOC/GS.
- I suggest that getting the larger screen GPS navigators (like the GTN-750) is a waste of money. Even with the larger screen the SkyView (or whatever) display is what you will always use - other than fat fingering in the multiple flight plan changes from ATC. For that the I find the GTN-650 size display is just fine.
- For the new plane I’m hoping the TRIG TS56 NAV/COM will be out. For a few dollars more than just a second COM you get VOR/LOC/GS as well. You never know, the “light IFR” trip you do may not turn out as planned.

Carl

OK the GPS navigator must be the primary GPS source for IFR flight. so flight plan chnages must be done in the GPS navigator if IFR. So plan accordingly.
I could not afford a GTN650, so i went with the GNX375. For VOR/LOC I used a GNC255 as comm, and VOR receiver. I think it was the best option in my price range. JMHO
 
My experience/opinion, worth what you're paying for it:

I just purchased a dual-screen 10" Dynon HDX system and a GPS-175 (they delivered last week).

One of the big factors in choosing Dynon was that I had experience with their equipment already--my dad put a Skyview in his RV-6 eight years ago and I've been flying with it on and off since then. I remember my first flight with it after he upgraded and there were two things that struck me: first, visually it really resembled the big jet avionics package I had a little experience with at work (I'm an aircraft systems engineer), and second, I found it really intuitive and easy to figure out--so much so, that I was showing him how to do things with it and I hadn't even read the manual yet.

At Oshkosh a few days later, I tried out a couple other vendors' systems, and none of them seemed as intuitive as the Skyview (especially the non-touch G3X that I couldn't make heads or tails of). I repeated the experiment in 2016 and came to the same conclusion.

As the time came close to making my decision and placing an order, I started taking a hard look at the documentation (both for installation, and use) from Garmin, Dynon, AFS, and GRT, priced out some options, and started playing with rough panel layouts for each of them. I didn't use a clean weighted-average score sheet like the one my wife used when she decided whether to marry me (seriously! she showed it to me one day), but it was more of a general qualitative evaluation. Some vendors offered some really neat features that I liked; others were lacking certain functions I really desired. Some had good documentation, others really poor. Some answered lots of my questions; others... well, didn't answer anything.

In the end, beyond familiarity and "intuitiveness", I felt that Dynon offered the best overall combination of features I wanted/needed, very good overall documentation, and good ease of installation (including the availability of a special "hub" board provided by another VAF member to make the wiring easier). Fitting things on the panel was a little more challenging with the Dynon (the autopilot and knob modules take up some space but based on experience in Dad's airplane I felt they would be really helpful with the "expert" autopilot compared to trying to drive it all via the screen). My runner-up was GRT; I liked the feature set and capabilities, and the ability to integrate with more third-party equipment, but in the end they were missing one or two things I really wanted, and the documentation was challenging to get my head around.

As far as the IFR GPS, I went with the GPS-175 in large part because it was the most affordable option, and it would fit in the space I have left on the panel (see the Dynon module comment earlier, plus I have an SDS programmer in the center stack). It's not as deep behind the panel and it's a really light unit--first time I picked it up, it felt like an empty case. That said, I'm not yet instrument rated--my plan is to work on the rating after Phase I is complete and I'm comfortable enough with the airplane. Hopefully I can manage that with GPS only, though I did leave room for an MGL N16 if needed.

Beyond the wiring hub though, I didn't really look at any pre-made options. My aircraft is different enough from standard it would have made things challenging, plus I like wiring. Some guys really get into fit-and-finish; I like to sit and make harnesses.

One thing that was neat (at least with Dynon) was that they make 3D models of their equipment available for download. I simplified them and printed out dummy units for most of the components, and was able to lay components in place and start running a lot of the harnesses and tubing for things even though I didn't have the actual units yet. In fact I'm still leaving many of them in place for now to prevent FOD and/or shop rash.

Edit: In general, wait as long as you reasonably can. Like other electronics, this stuff is getting upgraded frequently. I went ahead and pulled the trigger on my avionics order when I saw the Lycoming price increase, figuring it was only a matter of time before avionics prices went up too.



Disclaimer: I'm a low-time pilot and my airplane isn't done yet. YMMV, terms and conditions may apply, views expressed do not necessarily represent those of anyone here, no warranty express or implied, no substitutions exchanges or refunds.
 
Last edited:
If I was starting from scratch, I would certainly go with the Advanced Panel and ACM as a place to start. I'm not sure if the actual EFIS's would end up being Dynon or Advanced but either way, the ACM in conjunction with a Skyview network would offer a superior modularity and flexibility.

My plane uses a couple of Advanced Flight EFIS's and I've been very pleased. The interfaces of Garmin vs Dynon vs Advanced are a horse apiece IMHO. One can get used to anything.
 
Last edited:
1. Define YOUR ultimate mission. Don't kid yourself with "light IFR". That does not exist.
2. Talk to different manufacurers and get their advice
3. Plan for everything YOUR mission eventually requires even if you don't need everything to start flying.
4. Wait until you have nothing at all left do do on your build except the avionics.
5. Re-evaluate everything before you buy.
THE LAST THING: Select a manufacturer based on YOUR ultimate mission requirements and open you wallet.

Good luck. :cool:
1329.jpg
 
Last edited:
I did a 3 screen G3X touch, GTN 650 (since upgraded to the GTN 650Xi), VPX Pro electronic CB's, and had Approach Fast Stack make the Harnesses. No regrets at all , and love the capabilities that an all Garmin panel provides:).......

Everything exactly the same in the -10 including the harness from Approach Fast Stack. I just ordered the avionics for the RV-12 and it will have dual G3Xs and a 650Xi. Extremely happy with Garmin and would do exactly the same again. However, no big complaints with Dynon after 1000 hours with dual Skyviews in the -7.
 
I'm writing the check tomorrow for a full Garmin suite.

The guy who taught the AEA class I took in KC owns the avionics shop at Lee's Summit airport and he's building the harnesses and bench checking everything for me.

I feel like I could probably build the harnesses if I just took it one wire at a time, but I figured that it would be money well spent to have them do it and get it wrung out plus done in probably a tenth the time

Garmin is what I know, and I'm planning for some pretty solid IFR capability so it was never a question for me.
 
There's lots to be cautious about when you ask about folks' opinions on avionics...
* A whole lot of people will be proud of their whole ownership experience, including personal contacts that have nothing to do with the functionality and usability of the avionics, and will express that overall satisfaction as an objective assessment of the avionics.
* Similarly, some folks will have learned to use their avionics one way and will be ignorant of / not care for / insult other avionics usage styles. For example, many systems have only two screens, and some of those users have no use for any other style of system, sometimes with snide comments.
* Avionics vendors do a terrible job of marketing usability of their systems. They just promote their systems, have nice marketing photos but with little thought of communicating efficient ways of using the system. In system design, this is called "day in the life" design. (It's not the only criterion to be used in system design, but it's a necessary one.)
* Some systems are... choose your adjective, positive or negative, for one system that has the HSI overlaid on the attitude indicator.
* As I've mentioned before, anybody with user interface design experience can find poor design decisions in just about any complex avionics system.

I can tell you my decision, and what I like and don't like, but I don't know any good way to objectively, or nearly objectively, choose one system over another.

Good luck!
 
There are the big three when it comes to avionics: Garmin, Dynon, and AFS. Of these they all do about the same functions it's a matter of your personal preference to the user interface.

I've flown behind both Dynon and Garmin and am very happy with both. One detail that these guys have over the competition is that both the Dynon HDX and Garmin G3X went to the trouble to get fully FAA certified. Something to keep in mind.

If you are a lightweight junkie like myself the Dynon system is slightly lighter than Garmin.
 
You should be able to download both the pilot's manual and the installation manual for any of these. If you can't, move on to another product. When you read them, consider how you'd actually use or install the systems. How many special tools will you need? Obscure secondary devices? How many cables are there?

Dave
 
Uh, no.

. One detail that these guys have over the competition is that both the Dynon HDX and Garmin G3X went to the trouble to get fully FAA certified. Something to keep in mind.
n.

Usually people say ‘certified’ when they mean ‘TSO’. Neither the HDX nor the G3X carries a TSO. What is true is that the FAA has granted an STC to install these in normally certified aircraft, even though they lack a TSO. But they are not alone. Trio, TruTrak, and GRT have all been granted similar STCs for some of their products. So, keep that in mind.
 
Howdy everyone. Depending on skills, consider building your own system and wiring harnesses. (Knowledge can be obtained; if you want to put in the work.) You will better know and understand the individual components, how they interact and how the system as a whole operates. The tools and knowledge you acquire to build the system may come into play later if you need to trouble shoot, repair or replace/upgrade components.
 
Wait another 6 months, things will change and you will make a different decision!

Maybe you could share an example of how the market has changed in the last 6 months and how that affected those that bought 6 months ago. Personally I haven't seen any new products introduced in some time, excluding s/w updates.

Not arguing the fact that obsolescence occurs, but think the time frame is much longer than you are suggesting.

Larry
 
My 2 cents: Try to get in front of any system/manufacturer’s product you are considering. If you have prior experience with anything, one will feel more comfortable/intuitive. If you don’t have prior experience, you can learn any system. For me, buttonology and system familiarity made my decision easy. (All Garmin) :)
 
One factor that needs to be emphasized: After the sale service.

I got burned by the TSO side of Garmin on my first GTN-650 install (I was an early adopter). It came missing the configuration module and with what I was told were “known problems” - and I had to pay out of pocket for the fixes (mostly software changes that I was not allowed to do - only a Garmin dealer).

On the other hand, Dynon continues to demonstrate why they are the Gold Standard for after the sale service.

While I acknowledge the experimental side of Garmin appears better attuned to builders, this experience drove me to full SkyView installs on the next three planes (other than the TSO GPS Navigator as I wait for Dynon to offer one).

Not vendor bashing, just relating my experience.

Carl
 
Budget

Do you have a price range/budget in mind ?

I’d like to stay below $30k. Quotes I’ve gotten so far (Garmin, Dynon and Advanced) are below that, with one scree, a GPS nav and autopilot. Plan to use an iPad mounted on the copilot side for the other screen with a cutout for another screen in the future.
 
I’d like to stay below $30k. Quotes I’ve gotten so far (Garmin, Dynon and Advanced) are below that, with one scree, a GPS nav and autopilot. Plan to use an iPad mounted on the copilot side for the other screen with a cutout for another screen in the future.

Are the quotes you received including the shop building your harness?

After getting estimates from Advanced and Steinair for building my harness I decided to build my own. So far that’s been the most satisfying part of the build.

EDIT: I did this panel for a touch over $30K but I built my own harness.
 

Attachments

  • V8_real.jpg
    V8_real.jpg
    133.6 KB · Views: 287
Last edited:
The flip side of this, is that you wait 6 months and something new comes out...and the same people who advised waiting change their tune to 'better wait 6 months, don't want to be one of the guinea pigs testing a new product'. :)



Maybe you could share an example of how the market has changed in the last 6 months and how that affected those that bought 6 months ago. Personally I haven't seen any new products introduced in some time, excluding s/w updates.

Not arguing the fact that obsolescence occurs, but think the time frame is much longer than you are suggesting.

Larry
 
One factor that needs to be emphasized: After the sale service.

I got burned by the TSO side of Garmin on my first GTN-650 install (I was an early adopter). It came missing the configuration module and with what I was told were “known problems” - and I had to pay out of pocket for the fixes (mostly software changes that I was not allowed to do - only a Garmin dealer).

On the other hand, Dynon continues to demonstrate why they are the Gold Standard for after the sale service.

While I acknowledge the experimental side of Garmin appears better attuned to builders, this experience drove me to full SkyView installs on the next three planes (other than the TSO GPS Navigator as I wait for Dynon to offer one).

Not vendor bashing, just relating my experience.

Carl

For those that like to shop best price as a priority you will likely give up support, had you'd been a local customer of mine (or Stein) I can assure you your experience would have been much different. As a dealer I can tell you that Garmin (and most dealers) will go above and beyond to keep their customers happy.
 
Last edited:
Are the quotes you received including the shop building your harness?

After getting estimates from Advanced and Steinair for building my harness I decided to build my own. So far that’s been the most satisfying part of the build.

EDIT: I did this panel for a touch over $30K but I built my own harness.

Those quotes are with the vendor building the harnesses. I’m afraid of letting out the smoke if I make them myself.
 
What is your budget and mission... All the EFIS makers, Garmin, Dynon, GRT do a nice job but there are differences. What is important to you?

It sounds like a turn key plus $20,000 to $30,000 solution is what you are going for. If you have to coin go for it.
 
Last edited:
I’d like to stay below $30k. Quotes I’ve gotten so far (Garmin, Dynon and Advanced) are below that, with one scree, a GPS nav and autopilot. Plan to use an iPad mounted on the copilot side for the other screen with a cutout for another screen in the future.

Literally the same set up I’m going with. iPad for yet another level of redundancy and also for the wife to watch movies on during cruise. I chose garmin for many reasons.

G3x/g5/gtn 375(transponder) / gtr 20/ ap servos

Like you I’m not installing a nav. I will however have a hand held nav/comm for yet another level of redundancy.
 
Last edited:
AFS/Dynon

You absolutely cannot go wrong with the Dynon/Advanced Flight packages. Reasonably priced, easy to use, affordable updates, excellent service and complete systems available.

After building two RV7's, I'm often asked what I would do different. I would not do my own panel!!! I'd contact Steinair or Advanced Flight and order the complete package ready to install. In the end, getting a ready to install package, already configured is worth a lot. Don't wait to long as they are all pretty backlogged.

Garmin is very popular. It will cost you more and the updates are more costly. I've got a 750 in the latest 7 and love it. I dread the thought of something going wrong. I know it will cost several $1000 to get it looked at and fixed. Even with that you can't go wrong with Garmin.
 
I would not do my own panel!!! .

Everyone is different. Personally, I loved the whole process of designing and building my panel. I went with GRT because (1) I think it has the best ADAHRS and (2) it connects to a wide range of 3rd party accessories. So I chose each box for the job it had to do. Dynon D6 as backup efis, Garmin 420W and SL30, Trio autopilot, Trig transponder, SkyRadar ADSB-in, homebrew audio panel, XM radio. It all works just fine.
 
Avionics

Thanks to all for your input. As I sorta expected opinions vary and most are very happy with whatever system they chose. Lots to think about.
 
Back
Top