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Rusty pilot + transition to RV

Draker

Well Known Member
As I get closer to finishing the RV-7A, it's quickly dawning on me that I need a plan to get back into the left seat after... (checking logbook) 13 years without flying. In addition to rebuilding proficiency, I will need to learn a bunch of new systems and review in order to have a shot at being able to handle the RV. I think a good first step is to identify as many obstacles as I can:

  • Long time since last flight (13 years)
  • Low total time (80 hours)
  • Never flown with glass panel avionics
  • Never flown behind a constant speed prop
  • Flying experience limited to slow C172 and LSAa
  • No experience flying around hills and terrain (mostly in Florida where field is always around sea level)

On the plus side, at least I'm building an -A so I don't need to learn tailwheel on top of all that.

I'll be calling up a few local flight schools to find a CFI and with him/her work out a detailed plan, but what I'm thinking at this point looks something like this:

  1. Watch an AOPA Rusty Pilot webinar [DONE]
  2. Buy a paper chart and FAR/AIM and do some reading/re-familiarizing
  3. Ground instruction + 20 hours dual in a C172 with a 6 pack to jog the memory
  4. BFR
  5. 5 hours or so in a newer C172 with a G1000
  6. 5 hours or so learning what to do with the blue knob
  7. 5-10 hours of mountain training
  8. Maybe a few hours in a higher performance plane that lands faster than 45 knots?
  9. 20 hours poking holes in the sky solo to build more proficiency
  10. 10 hours transition training with Mr. Seager

I've scheduled the transition training session for October, which gives me a nice low-pressure deadline to get all this done. What am I leaving out here? Anyone with a similar profile go through this process already and have any tips for me?
 
ground school

Reading the regs is important but really boring. Could be worth picking up something like the King ground school. Was on CD/DVD back in the day... I imagine online now. Even though you don't need to do the written again the refresher will do wonders for the instructors confidence in your knowledge when he quizzes you. So, it will be less time spent with him on ground school and probably saves you money.
 
I have X-Plane 10 and bought a few extra planes from Caranado to practice with. The PC-12 flies at or over RV speeds and has a partial glass panel (horizon and HSI, with the rest of a six pack) plus Garmin 430s. The Phenom 300 has a full glass panel. I found it pretty intuitive even though all of my "real" flying has been old school six pack, COM and XPDR with handheld GPS.
 
Go Back to the Beginning

Ryan:
Not sure about you, but my retention over such a long period would be pretty poor. You might want to go back to the beginning of your training and go over everything. It might take less time than you think and it will be good to go over details and perhaps raise questions that went unanswered before or you have a different perspective on today. You're soon going to have a beautiful new airplane that's all yours - you want to treat it right from day 1.
For training, I'd go thru all the primary maneuvers as well. As far a a flight review, when you feel ready, ask your instructor to give you a full blown flight test and critique accordingly. That'll give you the confidence you need to make a smooth transition.
Don't hurry, don't worry, and don't forget to smell the flowers along the way.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
Scraping rust

I was in the same boat for a gap. 16 years from my last flight to finishing my RV-7

There is legal, and there is smart and the two don't always comport.

I went to Oregon and got transition training from Mike Seager. He has enough experience to look a trainee in the eye at the end of his lessons and give you an assessment on whether your are reasonably competent.

There is also the opportunity now to hire an experienced RV pilot to fly along with you on your first few flights if you are willing to do the paperwork.

X-Plane has a RV-7 set of parameters and you can build a custom panel to match what you are building for real. I took advantage of that for procedure training and found it worthwhile.

As a CFI I would generally say your total time is low. I would encourage getting twenty hours or more if you need in anything that flies within thirty days of your proposed test. If nothing else it will revive some latent paradigms and free up brain activity to pay attention to your test plan.

Everyone is different and a set plan isn't as important as one that adapts to your performance.
 
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I was in about the same exact situation.
  • Got my medical updated.
  • Got a BFR in something (172 maybe?)
  • Spent a few hours over a few weekends with Jan Busell in his 6A for transition training and insurance. The worst part was driving three hours to train, knowing I could fly it in 30 minutes in the RV....
I was fully confident at that point to do the first flight in my 6A. Was a non-event and I've now put over 700 hours on the 6A.

I am FP, so did not have the CS aspect. I think your hours are way more than needed to get back in the saddle.

I think getting time in the RV vs a 172 is much more valuable. (and fun)
 
Great to hear/see you are getting so close.

I think that is a great plan, but I don't think it'll take you as many hours dual to get as you think- but it'll take whatever it takes I guess. I had similar time off from flying as you and I think I put about 25-30 hours in the books (including transition with Mike).

Blue knob/CS training can be combined with some other of the training and it's not really that big of a deal. You'll pick it up really quickly.

I think if you get current, shoot plenty of landings and feel good, the time with Mike will get you used to landing the RV and trying to find something faster isn't really necessary. The RV will land a bit faster but your speeds in the pattern really won't be that much different than in the 172. I usually fly 172's at 85kt on DW (abeam), 75 Base, 65ish final. You'll probably fly almost the same speeds, maybe carry 5-10 more knots on final in your plane. Mike will get you good and comfy with all of this.

I am learning the glass too- but you may be able to put yours into a 6 pack mode initially if that helps too (don't know garmin options)

BTW- when you are out here for training in October- let me know, would love to meet up if at all possible.

dan
 
I spend a lot of time working with pilots returning to the cockpit after some years away.

A rule of thumb I've found to be mostly applicable is to plan about an hour of dual for every year you've been out, and 50% of that for ground.

A good flight review will be tailored to your mission with the ACS standards folded in. When you sit down with a CFI to work on this, work together to make a plan, with scenarios that are realistic to the way you'll be flying.
 
Near 20 years off for me. 5 hours of Transition training in Ruevan’s similar 7A. He said I was ready. I didn’t feel ready. Went back to San Diego and did another 5 hours with Ruevan. That’s what it took me, 10 hours RV time. He also signed off my BFR.
I think u will Adjust your plan midway. Flying the RV much more beneficial than any rental.
 
I had a 23 year hiatus. With only 140 hours. I did the C-172 refamiliarization flights and was signed off after about 3 hours for my BFR. I flew the 172 around the field for lots of pattern work. Probably did about 10 hours, then did 7 hours of RV transition work prior to my first flight. Getting used to talking on the radio took a lot of practice.

The glass panel stuff took quite a while to get up to speed with. There is a lot of information on the screen, and you need to train your brain on where to look for what. All of the Flight Plan pages and autopilot pages were played with during Phase 1. It probably took me 100 hours to really feel like I knew where all of the features were and how to use them. It's not critical for most flights.

Lots of great YouTube videos out there on glass panel.
At least now, you can do the additional pilot during Phase 1. Take advantage of that.
 
I'm in the same position as all of you describe, 124+ hrs 20 years ago. My current plan is to join the local flying club to get my flight review and build some recent time, then go to a flight school that uses RV-12s but is a 2+ hour drive each way to get transition training and experience prior to my first flight. Sounds like some of you have gone that path before me which is reassuring.
 
I think you should spend some time on the books and air regs as we tend to hold our muscle memory and lose our general memory of detailed items. Things change as well. I had a 20 year hiatus from flying and my flight check was 1 hour but I had thousands of hours total flight time. I didn't even know how to operate a Garmin glass radio, had never even seen one as I was a guy from the Narco, King and Collins days.

Even with your low total time you will still have a reasonable amount of muscle memory left and that doesn't take long to start to get it back....between flying and visualizing you will do better than you might have thought possible but unfortunately that doesnt work as well with air regs, charts,navigation and weather. You can get these back by just getting your nose back in the books.

The RV6 I bought has an advanced glass panel, lovely piece of gear. My problem was I had over 10,000 hours using a six pack and the transition took much longer than I would have thought. Here is my advice...the RV7A is not a hard aircraft to fly...if it concerns you then sure go put in a couple 3 hours in a 172 just to help your confidence level and then find a real good RV instructor and fly the RV....certainly no harder to fly than a 172.
Another person on the forum suggested using the 6 pack option on your RV....not a bad idea. That's what I did and I guess I flew it for a dozen hours before switching back to ticker tape flying....to be honest I think it took me close to 30 hours flying for it to be intuitive, certainly never unsafe but I had to break a long habit.....now, I'd never go back but when I get into a friends 6 pack its intuitive as well, so win, win.

You'll do just fine, don't make your job too complex, hit the books...costs you nothing and then go flying with a good instructor....you'll do fine and you'll have nothing but fun. You'll probably want insurance...make those training hours RV hours.:)
 
17 year gap flying

What I did was first decide what medical I wanted and checked that box off.

I found a non young CFI and flew a newer 172 till I was comfortable. Then found a 6A and bought it. I got a few hours transition training from a RV owner builder....

Done.

Congratulations on your accomplishment......
 
I went through this, but after a considerably longer layoff. After all that time when I decided to start flying again, I first reviewed everything I could find online (and there's a lot) in preparation for a BFR. Then, I actually signed up for a BFR. I breezed through the oral portion despite all the changes in FARs and airspace...my studying had paid off. The flying took longer...about 5 or 6 hours in a 172 before my CFI signed off. I then flew about 20 hours over the next couple of month until I got comfortable with navigation etc, and at that point bought an RV-9A with the help of a good friend and very experienced pilot/CFI. He became my transition trainer and it was THEN that I found out how rusty I actually was. We flew about 15 hours before I was at a point where I was ready to fly that plane alone. It was partly the flying but a lot of it was actual airmanship that I needed to re-acquire. I learned a lot from that transition training and I'm a much better pilot probably than I ever was. A less rusty pilot probably would have transitioned to the RV in less time than it took me, but I was in no rush and had a lot to learn. I still have a lot to learn, but at least I now have a more solid framework from which to do it.
 
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Solid stuff, lots to take in here. Thanks a lot. Sounds like I'm on the right track. Maybe fewer hours to regain proficiency and I don't need specific mountain training.
 
Current

Keep us posted please. I'm almost exactly in the same boat.
Same airplane, time. Maybe a few flights since I started building.
 
Another rusty pilot experience

Ryan,
Some good advice above! My profile was similar to yours, 110 hours TT and a 14 year break.
Midway through transition I asked for help on VAF, and got it:
https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=175485

There was a lot to take in at once; unfamiliar airport, unfamiliar airplane, higher performance airplane, forgotten procedure details (radio call formats, ground handling, circuit procedures). The actual flying part away from the airport was not too hard. I completed the transition, all in the RV-9A, in about 6 hours, but subsequent learning is ongoing. It also helped that I rode in the right seat with a couple of RV buddies in their planes and picked up quite a bit that way.

In hindsight it would have been beneficial to put more effort into studying the procedures and doing an hour or two of circuits and aerial work in a Cessna or Piper to refresh on the general stuff. Maybe you could do that, possibly with a constant speed prop. I had a previous CS prop and retractible endorsement, which took about 2 hours to get at the time.

Another really important thing is to find a good instructor who is patient and will help instill confidence. :)

Don't worry too much, you'll be fine.
 
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The glass panel stuff took quite a while to get up to speed with. There is a lot of information on the screen, and you need to train your brain on where to look for what.

AMEN! The glass panel could easily be as big a deal as getting your stick and rudder skills back up. Beg, borrow or steal some time in the same kind of glass, regardless of what kind of airplane it's in.

I've tried to push the idea of training in similar glass for situations like yours, but the feds and vendors are opposed, for whatever reason.
 
Let me take a run at it from the flight instructor prospective.

With your low time and long lay off it couldn't hurt to go through the entire private pilot ground school as a solid review. Lots of things have changed in 13 plus years and in the long run it will be much cheaper and probably have more complete instruction than one on one. If you can't commit to the schedule of an in person ground school then the various online versions would be a good second choice.

As for materials, I can't fault your decision on a paper chart to re-familiarize yourself. Maybe an electronic version of the FAR/AIM on the iPad might be better. Easily searchable. What will you be flying with when you get to the RV? If you plan to fly with Foreflight or some other electric chart app then you may as well start using it/learning it now when you are flying other airplanes. When you get to the RV you want as much brain power available for flying the airplane and you don't want to be distracted by also trying to figure out how manipulate your electric charts.

Your training estimates might be a little padded. For example, it should take one, maybe two lessons to become comfortable with a prop control.

Regarding learning to fly with glass panels. There are two hurdles to overcome.
1. Becoming comfortable with where the information is displayed and being proficient in interpreting the data. It takes a little time to do both but it isn't hard.
2. Resisting the urge to stare at all the cool stuff on the panel. That is very hard for some people to do. The siren call of the displays, especially now with ADS-B traffic, is hard to resist. I find the younger or more tech savvy the pilot is the more difficult it is for them to not stare at the displays instead of out the window.

I can't recommend getting some dual with Mike Seager enough.
I had 14,000 hours of total time and already some RV time when I went up there because a friend was going to add me to the insurance on his airplane and the company demanded 5 hours dual RV time. I could already fly the airplane so we were just checking a box so to speak but it was still great fun. Mike is a great instructor and I came away with a few little tidbits of new knowledge. It was a great way to spend a weekend.

Big picture. There is nothing about the RV that makes it a hard airplane to fly if you are in control of the aircraft. What I mean by that is if your head is in front of the airplane then the wonderful flying qualities will make each flight a joy.
 
Ryan,
A couple of others have sort of touched on this, but the only person whose opinion really matters is...the insurance company. Give a broker (I use Gallagher) a call and ask them what the insurance companies want to see, to get “reasonable’’ rates (in quotes because, with your low time, your choices will be high or absurdly high). My opinion: get dual in a 172, learn how to land again. Get a flight review. Learn how to use your avionics sitting on the ground (get a power supply or older battery). As a vfr pilot just make sure you know where the airspeed and altimeter are, everything else can come later. Get -7 dual with Mike.
 
AMEN! The glass panel could easily be as big a deal as getting your stick and rudder skills back up. Beg, borrow or steal some time in the same kind of glass, regardless of what kind of airplane it's in.

I've tried to push the idea of training in similar glass for situations like yours, but the feds and vendors are opposed, for whatever reason.

My airplane has a round-gauge ASI, altimeter, and VSI. I've taken to using post-in notes to cover all three to "encourage" me to use my very sophisticated glass cockpit. Old habits do die hard, but I'll tell ya....I'll never go back.
 
My airplane has a round-gauge ASI, altimeter, and VSI. I've taken to using post-in notes to cover all three to "encourage" me to use my very sophisticated glass cockpit. Old habits do die hard, but I'll tell ya....I'll never go back.

Funny you mention this. In addition to my glass, I also installed a steam altimeter and steam airspeed indicator into my panel, and I plan to initially set up the G5 as a HSI. The real reason for them is redundancy, but I have to admit they will be a nice crutch as I transition over to comfort with the glass panel. Maybe I should try not to rely on them and instead go all in on the glass.
 
Funny you mention this. In addition to my glass, I also installed a steam altimeter and steam airspeed indicator into my panel, and I plan to initially set up the G5 as a HSI. The real reason for them is redundancy, but I have to admit they will be a nice crutch as I transition over to comfort with the glass panel. Maybe I should try not to rely on them and instead go all in on the glass.

I had a round-gauge HSI when I picked up the plane, but shortly pulled it and replaced it with a G5. Now, with a full-on current-gen EFIS, dual GPS's, a dissimilar G5 as backup, and Foreflight on both my iPad and iPhone...I have no shortage of flight and navigation information. Certainly no need to use the round gauges, just need to break some habits.
 
Steam ASI

A steam ASI can be really handy on base/final when the pilot's eyes are mostly outside and just needing to glance at the position of a needle to confirm that airspeed is OK, in my experience.

The RV-9A that I transitioned in has both steam gauges (ASI, altimeter, VSI) plus an older D100 EFIS and I admit I ignored the EFIS and just used the steam gauges.

The plane I'm flying now has got only glass and after 50 hours I'm comfortable and really like it, but still intend to put a steam ASI alongside the glass in the RV project, as backup for the pilot. The glass was a bit overwhelming at first because there is so much information presented together and the brain needs to learn where to look and how to filter and interpret.

I think you will benefit from the steam gauges at first, and then over time the glass will take over.
 
Back up flight information

Everybody should have their own opinions, that's good.

Preferring an analog hand on a mechanical dial vs a digital presentation is right in there on the plateau of personal tastes. But I offer that the day is past when one can presume one to be more safe than another.

On early attempts at digital presentation I would agree there was something missing. Our eyes pick up motion and shape relationships much more quickly than processing the meaning of numerical characters. Since then the avionics folks have come a long way to combine motion and shapes along with the raw numbers in our digital displays. Enough so that in this person's opinion the difference is purely a matter of choice rather than readability.

There is no mechanical device that can offer the synthesis of information presented by a velocity vector or "flight path marker" placed accurately on a synthetic display of surrounding terrain. Learning how to use a flight path marker is critical to understanding the difference in the display formats.

I went with all glass, there it is. I expected and got some judgmental criticism about the lack of mechanical analog displays. When the critique took the form of judgement I always asked to hear the reasons. Generally speaking the justifications came from a place of reliable redundancy, a noble thing to pursue in aviation to be sure.

I could count on my system three layers of independently powered redundancy for each piece of flight information including completely isolated battery reserve, except the pitot static system itself of which I have only one heated pitot tube and two connected static ports with the ability to open the static side to cockpit pressure. Still single points of failure that most of us share. This didn't seem to appease those who believed that redundancy had to be displayed by a mechanical device.

Obviously when we are up against opinions the discussion often becomes less meaningful, often pointless.

I'm a guy that started flying in the DC-3 in the 70s, transitioned to glass when it came along, and am able with either.

So my opinion is this: Don't think you need a mechanical display because it is inherently safer as a fall back device. Sure there are scenarios one can contrive where only the mechanical device would continue. The same is true for contriving scenarios where only the mechanical device will fail.

Regarding the airspeed itself I am in the AoA camp rather than a floating speed reference. The RV does have some slightly tighter numbers when it comes to landing without a bounce on a short field owing to moderate wing loading. Many avionics packages now offer aural AoA feedback to let you hear a range of AoA rather than just the approach to stall. In that last phase of flight it is very nice to never have to bring your eyes inside at all for speed reference.

If you like the older style then install it, that's why the Experimental category exists! I just implore us to look rationally at whether each is actually a more "safe" device/display.

Not saying anyone here has fallen on one side or the other of this discussion, just sharing the experience of having had that one sided conversation way too many times. Perhaps again here.
 
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A few comments.

The first time I flew glass it was odd feeling, but at the end of the day I knew how to fly the airplane and recognize what it was doing so I had some margin there. I don't think this is a big deal for you especially since you have an analog airspeed.

As far as learning to fly again, go get your tailwheel endorsement. While you don't need it to fly your airplane it will wire your head up for good stick and rudder skills which really make a difference in crosswind landings and mountain flying since your head becomes a yaw damper.

I think you would learn a lot more than 10 hours in a 172, and it's for sure more satisfying.
 
I went with all glass, there it is. I expected and got some judgmental criticism about the lack of mechanical analog displays. When the critique took the form of judgement I always asked to hear the reasons. Generally speaking the justifications came from a place of reliable redundancy, a noble thing to pursue in aviation to be sure.

No criticism from me, and I got my PPL long before anyone had even conceived of Global Positioning Satellites. It's 2021. Too many advantages and too much useful information immediately available from modern avionics. Time to move on.
 
I can't believe that no one has yet asked what the heck is this paper chart you mention! Actually probably a good idea to start in a new local since you can see it big, but you'll quickly forget about paper after that. For VFR grab an inexpensive tablet of your preference, and download several of the free EFB apps to find which one you like.

You're already ahead of the game with a plan. I agree with the others that it takes way less time to get back into it then you listed. Start with the glass panel C-172 if that worries you, but if you can do glass on a pc flight sim, its not really different in the airplane. I used the AFS-4500 six pack display on my first flight, and then never looked at it again. It is personal preference, but to me the glass presentation is way better.

Mr. Seager will teach you what to do with the blue knob (its not that hard), and when he signs you off, you will be ready, and most insurance will accept his endorsement.

PS it will be hard to fly those Cessna things after you feel the control and performance of the RV!
 
30 years between flying. Bought a used RV9A with the help of an experienced vans builder and pilot. Did 25 hours of Rusty pilot training in a Archer, found out my radio work was bad, was much more comfortable aborting takeoffs and landings when things did not feel right in my old age. Did another 20 hours of transitioning into my RV9A and got my 3rd class medical and BFR signed off. Still learning, still getting comfortable, still getting used to a very responsive aircraft and the glass panel. Just went through my second annual, learning and getting better with taking it apart and putting it back together. Also mentor at a local high school building a RV12. Went to Oshkosh this winter and last year and took the EAA electrical and sheet metal building classes. Very busy but what a ride!!
 
Funny you mention this. In addition to my glass, I also installed a steam altimeter and steam airspeed indicator into my panel, and I plan to initially set up the G5 as a HSI. The real reason for them is redundancy, but I have to admit they will be a nice crutch as I transition over to comfort with the glass panel. Maybe I should try not to rely on them and instead go all in on the glass.
I installed analog "backups" as well and expected to use them a lot while I transitioned to glass. In the end, I never look at them. The "transition" to glass that's needed to replace ASI/VSI/Alt is about 30 seconds. For heading, I'm still experimenting with finding the right setting of track/heading and gps/magnetic. I only have a "whiskey" compass because it's required. I do still like my mechanical ball slip indicator, gotta confess.
 
There is also the opportunity now to hire an experienced RV pilot to fly along with you on your first few flights if you are willing to do the paperwork.

Though I was current (in Citabrias/Decathalons), I flew my first ~20 hours with a local, super seasoned experimental pilot under the AC 90-116 additional pilot program. There is an authorization section that needs to be in your AW cert and the additional pilot needs to be on your insurance - both easy to do. This was all done gratis, so no for compensation or hire issues.

During all my flights, he didn't need to touch the controls at all (fortunately!), but it was very helpful to have an experienced eye watching the engine/traffic/etc early on and to help to interpret performance while stretching the envelope.

We finished up Phase 1 with a full aerobatic sequence to really shake down the plane -- and log it in Phase 1 for future adventures in Phase 2.
 
Inexpensive considerations...

Consider these inexpensive ways to gain great experience while you are putting the finishing touches on your 7A:

1. Sporty's Learn to Fly Course
My son is doing flight training right now and it looks like a great interactive course with attention keeping videos and graphics. As a CFI I look for ways to stay on top of changing regulations and reminding myself of things I've forgotten. I think this course will allow you to go back and review things in the future too, which comes in handy.

2. Ride in as many RVs, and other airplanes as possible.
Time is limited. Honestly, it isn't always feasible to fly half way across the country to find that one guy who teaches that one thing. By riding along with other guys going up for a quick flight after work or a trip to the pancake breakfast on Saturday morning, you'll see a lot of things. Remember your training, watch for good habits and bad ones. Immersing yourself in the flying environment will make the books learning and ground school videos come to life.

3. When you are ready to focus, find a transition training course that works for you and your insurance company. There are a lot of ways to skin the cat. If you are going to do your maiden flight there is a much more robust training path ahead than if you are going to use a friend/test pilot to fly the first few flights on your newly minted 7A.

4. Use an EAA Technical Advisor to go over your build several times during the last year of construction. You might be pleasantly surprised at how many things can be sorted out by having an experienced eye look over your work. Document the EAA Technical Advisors visits.

5. Check out the EAA Test Flight Manual. Take a step by step approach to Phase 1 by following a well thought out program like this one with the help of an EAA Flight Advisor familiar with the RV-7A. This will be a rewarding process and promotes safety beyond your transition training and flying with your local RV pilots on the weekends.

6. You are at the perfect stage in your flying experience to take advantage of all these programs that have been put in place to make sure you are successful. On the other end of it, after you've completed Phase 1 with your new 7A, you'll have a great deal of experience to pass on to the experimental community around if you take a step by step approach.

Enjoy, have fun, this is a great community and you've already taken one of the most important steps in reaching out here on VAF. Now to sort out all the options!
 
Definitely will be reaching out to the local KLVK EAA guys. I don’t go to many chapter meetings because I’m so busy with work but it might be time to start. Really need a thorough look over.

Regarding the AC 90-116 additional pilot program, that seems like a lot to ask of someone but I’ll look around locally. Someone also graciously reached out here offering to help so I guess some people are ok with going up in some random builder’s project!
 
Funny you mention this. In addition to my glass, I also installed a steam altimeter and steam airspeed indicator into my panel

I have a similar setup in my -9A, and I find I'll use the EFIS' moving tape display for airspeed but the steam altimeter for altitude.
 
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