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Alternator Reliability Poll

On your current airplane, how reliable is/was your alternator

  • I have used an automotive alternator and had no failures in its first 250 hours.

    Votes: 140 25.5%
  • I have used an automotive alternator that failed within the first 250 hours.

    Votes: 32 5.8%
  • I have used a Plane Power alternator and had no failures in its first 250 hours.

    Votes: 172 31.4%
  • I have used a Plane Power alternator that failed within the first 250 hours.

    Votes: 74 13.5%
  • I have used a B&C alternator and had no failures in its first 250 hours.

    Votes: 127 23.2%
  • I have used a B&C that failed within the first 250 hours.

    Votes: 3 0.5%

  • Total voters
    548

alpinelakespilot2000

Well Known Member
Since I'm temporarily grounded waiting for new alternator parts, figured I'd satisfy my curiosity with a poll on alternator reliability during the initial 250 hours.

Poll caveats/criteria:
1. This is created with the recognition that quality of installation matters, regardless of alternator type.
2. I know some alternators wait until hour 251 to fail, but I had to make the cutoff somewhere. 250 seemed reasonable. I think most would agree that fewer than 250 hours represents premature failure.
3. Depending on hours (especially if you have flown less than 250 hours on the alternator and have not had a failure), you may not be able to reply to the poll.
4. I don't know how make the poll work for multiple installations/multiple aircraft, thus the poll only applies to current aircraft. Please use the poll to document the reliability of your initial alternator installation (unless you did not have it on long enough for it to fail or to otherwise reach the 250 hour mark before replacing it).
5. First hand experience only.
 
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Interesting survey

Please post your hours at failure too, please. Like - PP 60A, 249 hrs. Regulator.

OR B&C, 595 hrs, brushes. While engine or airframe, or cooling might matter, we won't get enough information for a statistically valid conclusion. ;)
 
Good poll Steve. B&C (alt and reg) working flawlessly after first 2,500 hours. Standard installation no cooling hose and still on original belt. Bought new in 2007, flying since 2011.
 
I'm on my second Plane Power

My first plane power failed at around 240 hours while leaving Oshkosh a few years ago. (Bearings went out). I took a chance and replaced it with the same thing and it has been doing fine for about 260 hours but I have my fingers crossed based on the seemingly high reported failure rate. I placed a blast tube aimed at the back of the second one but had trouble with it melting and staying in place because of its proximity to the exhaust. I removed it before last Oshkosh and it's still working a year later. I have doubts that the tube helped.

The reasons I went for the second one was because of the good service I got from PP and I didn't want the hassle of tracking down brackets, pulleys, etc to change it to a Honda Civic model. I'm not sure what I'll do for the next one. I keep hoping you guys will find the perfect ND bolt in replacement. I tried and came close but didn't get an exact match. PP has since sold out and both B&C are awfully pricey for me. Rumor has it PP's service isn't what it used to be.
In the interest of fairness I must say that I have wondered if perhaps I got some aluminum dust in the 1st PP while using a die grinder to trim the baffles. I had wrapped it loosely in plastic but it is possible some found its way inside.
Joe
 
B&C alternator with no failures with 1,100hrs in 15yrs of flying on a Lycoming O-360 A4M. :cool:
 
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PP 1062 hrs. doing well. We plan to do the recommended brush inspection the next time the cowling comes off. Larry
 
Alternator Reliability.

Vans RV-6. 160 HP Constant Speed Prop.
Automotive Alternator: 2 Failures in first 200 hours.
B & C 40 Amp Alternator & Regular: No failures in 300 hours.
 
Still going!

I have a Van's 60amp internal regulated alternator that is my original Feb. 2007 alternator. 850 hrs and still going. No blast tube.
 
"Vans" 35amp alternator from the late 90's & Motorola M5-150A external regulator. Blast tube installed. No failures in 400hrs.

160HP RV6
 
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My automotive alternator has not failed in over 700 hours but have had one belt failure at 540 hours and a completely cracked through attachment bracket at 680 hours.
Both failures make we suspect misalignment issues so spent more time ensure true planar drive off the engine when I replaced the bracket. Bearings in alternator still seem good.
 
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400 hours on my B and C 60 ampere. Zero failures.

I wish that I could vote twice because the RV-6 that I fly lost it's automotive alternator at 60 hours.

That is what convinced me into going with the B and C for the -7!

I just installed their starter. I love it too!

;) CJ
 
ND failure

ND Alternator, supplied in Van's FF kit.
Voltage regulator showing signs of failure after 7 years with 460 hours. Was displaying up to 16 volts on GRT EIS.
Installed on O-320 with blast tube.

Replacing with PP but now questioning that decision based on comments in this thread and others.

Comments on the latter welcome.
 
B&C

After having tried automotive alternators on my RV-4 in the early 80's and having too many failures I have only used B&C on subsequent airplanes, with no failures. That's lover 4000 RV hours that I know of, with 1100 on the current RV-10.

Vic
 
my plane was born with a 87 suzuki samuri alternator and still lives with one. i have a spare one on hand that travels with me, also a starter too, and the warranty is still in effect. at times a have had one or the other rebuilt for $100 but that is the way it is. each to his own.
IMG_1149.jpg
 
B&C 60A 1800hrs. Added water to the voltage regulator which it didn't like but worked after dried out. At about 1500hrs, mystery field wire issue, never found root cause. Replaced entire field wire and connector for resolution. Claiming no alternator failures.
 
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I had a brand new internal regulated Nippondenso for the Suzuki Samuri fail at 79 hours. Had a cooling blast tube and never flown in rain. Replaced with B&C external regulated.
 
I realized last night that the PP 60A alternator in my plane has been the least reliable component in the plane. Not what I would have expected.
Two failures in 450 hours. (I do have a cooling blast tube on the regulator)

First failed at 85 hours.
Second failed at 365 hours.

Called PP today and they DO NOT repair their alternators. They direct you to buy another at one of their vendors...
Going to try try the local repair shop, or bust it open myself. Nothing to lose.
 
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I have a Van's 60amp internal regulated alternator that is my original Feb. 2007 alternator. 850 hrs and still going. No blast tube.

Same as Bobby.
Fying 10 years & approaching 900 hours. I use a blast tube.


Update: My voltage regulator failed at 961 hours / 10.5 years.
I just replaced it with a 1990 Suzuki Samurai alternator. Cost $67.45 with discount
 
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I thought maybe the bar had been set too low by only looking at failures below 250 hours, but even with that, and as of this point in the poll, more than one in four Plane Powers are failing before 250 hours! (12 out of 45) Interesting!

B&C numbers really confirming their reputation too!
 
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I thought maybe the bar had been set too low by only looking at failures below 250 hours, but even with that, and as of this point in the poll, more than one in four Plane Powers are failing before 250 hours! (12 out of 45) Interesting!

B&C numbers really confirming their reputation too!

Looks like all that chest pounding by B and C users is justified!

Seems like almost everyone I know with a Plane Power unit has had some type of malfunction. The connector breaks, bad bearings or noise. Some have no output and come back from service with no mention of what was wrong.or repaired. Just odd...

At least the Van's and automotive ones are inexpensive and easily had at any auto parts stores.

No doubt, the B and C ones cost more. I am fine with that so long as quality and reliability come with it. It sure does here!

;) CJ
 
In 16 yrs and 1810 hrs, I've always used automotive (Van's first then Suzuki/Nipon). Never had a failure, but I also have proactively replaced after ~4 years/~400 hrs.

200 hrs ago installed a Bosch remanufactured AL430X (N14684) Suzuki Samurai alternator. Hoping the good reviews are indicative of a moderately priced alternator that will carry me far. We'll see.
 
Weibull Plot - And Good news

I took the failures listed here and in the archives for the PP. In the plot, it was a dual population plot. There was clearly two different groups indicative of a specific product problem area.

I sent a note, and called, PP regarding this thread this morning. The Director (Hartzell) sent me an email indicating they indeed are recognizing an early hour failure problem and are working the issue. Understandably, he did not elaborate on the cause, process, timeline, or solution.

Some assumptions here, but if the auto alternator (like the bosch above) do last , what would PP and B&C have to match (in life) to be cost competitive?

Screen%2BShot%2B2016-06-13%2Bat%2B4.35.51%2BPM.png
 
Nice job on the comparison costs but is it including any downtime/repair costs for the units that have early failures. As an example, if an automotive alternator has to be replaced 3-4 times during the same period of a B&C, it would seem to me that the costs are higher, to say nothing of an inopportune failure while on a trip away from home.
Although an advantage would be to spread the costs out over time rather than an initial high dollar investment upfront. Perhaps it depends upon the mission and equipment---- all glass cockpits flown regularly in IMC conditions probably warrant a high end alternator and even a backup one. VFR aircraft with steam gauges probably do OK with automotice alternators.

Different strokes.....


Vic
 
Different Strokes Indeed . . .

Different strokes....
Vic

Yes, the analysis (admittedly rough as a cob) just used the 400hrs as a baseline of the poster that had several Bosch Reman alternators that were replaced by hours, not condition, with no failures. No heavy brain work invested here.

To effectively use a such a chart, we would need to know the real statistical life of each product. Like B10 life, meaning that 90% of the units would meet or exceed that number. It is unlikely that we will find this publicly.

I am not sure what the RV community's consensus target would be, but if all the numbers listed were B10, then they would be pretty good. Maybe some aero industry members know what a good number would be, B5, B2 maybe?

Like you point out - if you have a 9/10 chance of getting that life, are you statistically worse off rolling those dice multiple times instead of 1?

This is a fantastic poll, and probably will have a positive impact on the products.
 
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While I have not had an alternator failure within 250 hours, I have had two fail right about the 300 hour mark. The first one at 300 hours was due to bad bearings. The alternator locked up in flight and burned the belt off. Obviously I did not know what was going on other than it quit charging. The second one was due to worn out brushes at about 320 hours of use. It also quit charging. Both of these failures were during trips to the Sun-N-Fun. I scrubbed the first trip and continued with the second one since I was only a few minutes from the S-N-F. The PC-680 kept the essentials powered up for 120 minutes with no charge and still cranked the engine after the alternator was replaced. With all this said, the alternators are the 35 amp externally regulated jobs that Vans sold (Autozone part number 14184).
The problem with auto parts store remanufactored alternators is twofold. First they use cheap Chinese made bearings. These bearings are going to fail no doubt about it. US or Japanese made bearings cost many times more but they will last much longer. The second problem is most rebuilders will only replace what is absolutely required. For example if there is enough life left in the brushes to make it past the warranty period, the brushes will not be replaced. That is how they can sell you a rebuilt alternator $50.00.
 
if you have 2, do they both need to be B&Cs

I have all glass and fly a lot of IMC. I have 2 alternators one a vacuum pump accessory pad mounted B&C, the other a $100 AutoZone. If the auto one fails I still can complete my flight. Once I'm back home I can exchange it for free, so just some labor on my part which is also free. I did put a larger pulley (4") on my 14824 AutoZone so we'll see if that makes it last longer, I would think it would.
 
I have a B&C alternator with a blast tube installed in my -4. 15 years and 770hrs with no failures.

I have yet to touch it. At annual I look at it, wiggle the connector to confirm security and call it done. This thread has inspired me to check to see if I should be doing more proactive maintenance.
 
B&C 60A at 530 hrs and still going strong. Had an external voltage regulator need tweaking at about 400 hrs, but the alternator has been bullet-proof.
 
I had an interesting conversation this morning with Hartzell/Plane Power. A quick summary:

They have no insight whatsoever in regards to the design, other than is starts out as a Nippondenso alternator. The manufacturing rights were purchased from the previous developer, Plane Power. +

The product is not even produced by Hartzell in house. It is produced by a vendor and shipped to Hartzell essentially complete.

There are no service and repair procedures, nor parts. A warranty is simply a new unit.

They are totally unaware of field failure data.

They have no plans to investigate the high failure rate of this product.

I have a 60 amp version PP that was provided with my RV-10 kit. It now has over 500 trouble free hours. I am leaning heavily towards a proactive replacement with the B&C, although it will require installing a voltage regulator.
 
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One important factor, IMO, is the pulley ratio. Alternator output "plateaus" after about 6000 RPM and I've seen plenty of automotive installations in aircraft that use the auto OEM pulley. When checking drive ratio using the pitch diameters of the Starter Ring Gear, many were running their Alternators above 9000 RPM at cruise.

Another, less obvious consideration is the fact that Auto Alternators are designed for high altitude operation.

FWIW

mjb
 
One important factor, IMO, is the pulley ratio. Alternator output "plateaus" after about 6000 RPM and I've seen plenty of automotive installations in aircraft that use the auto OEM pulley. When checking drive ratio using the pitch diameters of the Starter Ring Gear, many were running their Alternators above 9000 RPM at cruise.

Another, less obvious consideration is the fact that Auto Alternators are designed for high altitude operation.

FWIW

mjb

Do you mean to say automotive alternators are "not" designed for high altitude operation? What would one do to an alternator for "high altitude" operation? Magnetos are pressurized to preclude flashover but I've never heard of any changes to alternators for operation at altitude.
 
I had an interesting conversation this morning with Hartzell/Plane Power. A quick summary:

They have no insight whatsoever in regards to the design, other than is starts out as a Nippondenso alternator. The manufacturing rights were purchased from the previous developer, Plane Power. +

The product is not even produced by Hartzell in house. It is produced by a vendor and shipped to Hartzell essentially complete.

There are no service and repair procedures, nor parts. A warranty is simply a new unit.

They are totally unaware of field failure data.

They have no plans to investigate the high failure rate of this product.

I have a 60 amp version PP that was provided with my RV-10 kit. It now has over 500 trouble free hours. I am leaning heavily towards a proactive replacement with the B&C, although it will require installing a voltage regulator.

That is a terrible public response from your contact. The whole HET/PP Team is definitely not on the same page. Not what I got yesterday. I am not going to post it, but it was a more positive response at least to addressing the early hour failures. I sent you an email with it.

The value of a larger company like Hartzell is the knowledge of product functional specifications and a quality assurance organization to enforce compliance by the lower tier suppliers. Clearly, their internal support functions and training have failed, and they will have to do some tuning internally, and quickly do something special, to restore/recover their brand image.

~9000 RV owners are watching (along with with ~4000 builders). The poll indicates that PP's product share is #1 in the RV market.
 
B & C 60A Alternator
No problems with the alternator in 735 hours although I did have the separate voltage regulator fail at around 375. No problems since it was replaced.

B & C makes nice stuff. I'm guessing you'd find similar results when comparing their starter with other brands as well.
 
35A Honda Civic alternator, as supplied by Vans, still going strong after nearly 500 hours over 13 years. The original Vans-supplied aluminum alternator bracket and external regulator did fail and had to be replaced. Regulator at 250 hours and bracket around 350.
 
I did find out once that even a B&C 60A alt/reg will not prevent the battery from running down if you leave the master switch on. :rolleyes:
 
Similarly, I found out that the B&C alternator did not make me better looking. :(

However, it does seem to improve memory! I bet that he will never forget to shut off the master!

;) CJ

P.S. I think we should have a similar thread on starters now also!

I was very pleased to ditch my old SkyTec on Mikey B.!

:D
 
I believe that the poll should include the voltage regulator in the failure rate. The Plane Power has and integral regulator and the B&C uses and external. I would be curious what the stats would look like if some of the posters with B&C included their voltage regulator failure.
 
I believe that the poll should include the voltage regulator in the failure rate. The Plane Power has and integral regulator and the B&C uses and external. I would be curious what the stats would look like if some of the posters with B&C included their voltage regulator failure.

I bet that it wouldn't be very different.

The voltage regulator is electronic (not the old Ford style) and installed in the cockpit for reliability reasons.

:cool: CJ
 
Just by the posters here, it would include three additional failures of non-PP alternators. Agree, not much different, but non the less important to be accurate.
 
I started out with the B&C 60A as primary and the B&C SD20 on the vacuum pad as the backup. I changed from the 60A at about 300 hours. No problems at all with the B&C, but I found a 70A National Air Parts alternator and I wanted the extra amps for air conditioning loads. National Air Parts is in Deland, FL and they build very robust alternators. I don't recall what it cost, but it was not out of line compared to the B&C. They supply alternators to flight schools and other high volume users and have a very solid reputation. The alternator has been fault free now for over 500 hours. It was compatible with my B&C voltage regulator. It is physically larger than the B&C, so I had to buy a different tension arm, but it was readily available, so the installation was pretty much a drop in replacement. Made sure that all existing wiring was adequate, and that was it. The SD20 works well for a backup. I can basically run all of my panel on the SD20, so I do not lose IFR capability. The SD20 depends on RPM to put out rated power, so if I have all avionics on, the landing lights and boost pump for landing will max out the SD20. Bottom line is, my load shed requirements are minimal and I have my VP-200 programmed to shed differently depending on whether I am in the VMC or IMC mode. I sold the B&C on this forum, and imagine it is still happily producing electricity for an RV owner somewhere.:)
 
Just by the posters here, it would include three additional failures of non-PP alternators. Agree, not much different, but non the less important to be accurate.

I just did a brief scan of the replies. I couldn't find any that had B and C voltage regulator problems within the first 250 hours.

Maybe I missed them?

:confused: CJ
 
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