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airport refusing to rent me a hangar to build

philip_g

Well Known Member
to rent a hangar here they want the N-number, liability insurance, and most recent annual inspection. I can probably sort out 1 and 2, but #3 might be an issue.

I'm certain this is an airport that has received federal grant money and is bound by the grant agreements, to include what the FAA has designated as aviation use, which specifically includes building an aircraft.

however, they're saying no and I have no idea how or who to argue my point with.

from the airport handbook FAQ


Question 8. What aeronautical uses of a hangar are permissible?

FAA Response.

Storage of active aircraft.
Shelter for maintenance, repair, or refurbishment of aircraft, but not the indefinite storage of non-operational aircraft.
Construction of amateur-built or kit-built aircraft provided that activities are conducted safely;
 
I would go straight for getting a letter from an aviation attorney.

You might be able to get through this yourself, but maybe not.

And, while they are stalling you with denials, they rent to someone else.

Alternate might be to enlist a partner who has a plane already, and get it that way?

Are you with AOPA?? They may be able to help.
 
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Alternate might be to enlist a partner who has a plane already, and get it that way?

I tried that but they already have the max # of hangars they will give them. Attorney letter might work, I'm trying to play nice in the meantime. I wasn't sure if EAA had any resources for me or if the airport even can deny me a hangar for an authorized use.
 
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I tried that but they already have the max # of hangars they will give them. Attorney letter might work, I'm trying to play nice in the meantime. I wasn't sure if EAA had any resources for me or if the airport even can deny me a hangar for an authorized use.

AOPA is probably a good resource too.
 
Personally, I don’t Respond Well to Threats

If it’s an airport with a (long) wait list, your chances might be slim. They’ve likely had experiences with builders who’ve never finished or used the hangar as a storage locker. In the meantime, it’s one less opportunity to sell fuel or other services that the airport might offer. You’re a drag on their business until/unless you finish. It might work better if you ask them for a possible solution rather then come in with guns blazing. Your problem is not uncommon. Try to think of it from their perspective and you may have a better chance of both winning.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
If it’s an airport with a (long) wait list, your chances might be slim. They’ve likely had experiences with builders who’ve never finished or used the hangar as a storage locker. In the meantime, it’s one less opportunity to sell fuel or other services that the airport might offer. You’re a drag on their business until/unless you finish. It might work better if you ask them for a possible solution rather then come in with guns blazing. Your problem is not uncommon. Try to think of it from their perspective and you may have a better chance of both winning.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP

apparently there are available hangars. I thought there was a list but they just evicted a bunch of people. they can evict you for any reason they want (and often do)
if I needed to I could find somewhere to build and just take it to the hangar for final assembly. I just don't know where.
 
IIRC, this subject was discussed in great length here on the forum many years ago. The poor guy trying to get a hanger to build in, like you, ended up spending a small fortune trying to force the airport into renting him a hanger. It involved the municipality that owned the airport, many lawyer hours billed, his local and state reps, a lawsuit that he lost, and it cost him at least $20,000 to fight his loosing battle. Guns blazing and threats are not the way to go here. Good luck though. I would look for some local shop space to lease instead, either commercial, or private from someone with a pole barn you can lease. You'll end up with an airplane for that hanger you will want and need.
 
Airplanes with no home...

Hanger space is at a premium. I am on the waiting list at 3 airports but many of the hangers are filled with business inventory, RVs and airplanes that haven't been airworthy in a decade. Many have found they can enjoy the additional security that an airport can provide and use the facilities for everything except aviation. Not sure what their beef would be with you wanting to build an airplane. It's a quagmire without a solution as far as I can tell.
 
I would look for some local shop space to lease instead, either commercial, or private from someone with a pole barn you can lease. You'll end up with an airplane for that hanger you will want and need.

I've been keeping an eye out as it could be closer to my house but no luck, not for less than $1500 a month, anyway
 
Hanger space is at a premium. I am on the waiting list at 3 airports but many of the hangers are filled with business inventory, RVs and airplanes that haven't been airworthy in a decade. Many have found they can enjoy the additional security that an airport can provide and use the facilities for everything except aviation. Not sure what their beef would be with you wanting to build an airplane. It's a quagmire without a solution as far as I can tell.

I guess the list gets a lot shorter when the hangar rent is >$800 but agreed, it's really putting me in a tight spot to do what I want
 
Hanger space is at a premium. I am on the waiting list at 3 airports but many of the hangers are filled with business inventory, RVs and airplanes that haven't been airworthy in a decade. Many have found they can enjoy the additional security that an airport can provide and use the facilities for everything except aviation. Not sure what their beef would be with you wanting to build an airplane. It's a quagmire without a solution as far as I can tell.

It's amazing what a phone call to a congressional representative's office can sometimes accomplish. Just sayin'.

Aviation use is supposed to, by law and FAA regulation, take precedence over non-aviation use, PERIOD. It burns me to hear from people on my field who say they're "on the waiting list" for a hangar, when I look around and see a large number of hangars that have boats, RVs, businesses, shops, etc., in them...no airplane or aviation use whatsoever. Most people want to avoid conflict, so they kinda sheepishly accept being placed on this mysterious "list" (which often doesn't exist at all) rather than push the airport authority to give them what they are entitled to by law: a hangar for their airplane (in preference to a hangar being used for non-aviation stuff).
 
My airport wouldnt

I could not build at my airport. They wanted a flying plane or near flying plane. Too few hangars and too many experiences of people using for storage. It pisses the pilots off at the airport when they have a flying plane sitting outside and some guys got an antique fuselage, a car and an old boat in one of the few available hangars.

Your situation is slightly different, but they kind of have to view it the same way.

Now, if there's empty hangars at your airport, that would be a different story.
 
It took a bit of searching, but I managed to find a large "storage unit" at a small self-store facility that had plenty of power circuits in the unit. I added some overhead lights and ended up with a great shop to build my RV-10 in for a reasonable rental cost. Finally moved it to an airport hanger after everything that could be done without the wings installed had been done. And even then, I ended up moving it to an airport a lot farther from my home than the local one, as they don't permit maintenance or construction of any kind in the airport's hangers.

I also found a person not too far from me who was willing to rent his 2 car garage space to me for use as a build shop. So that might also be an option to consider.

While this may not be per the FAA regulations for hanger usage, I decided that trying to fight the airport administration would cost too much and take too much time to be worthwhile. I learned a long time ago that tilting at windmills is usually a painful and unsatisfying venture.

Good luck with your search for build space
 
Thanks Dave, I've been exploring those options as well. They're about the same cost as a hangar. No dice on a garage and that makes me nervous as other people have access to damage parts.

I'll potentially have to truck the plane to an airport quite a way away because they probably won't let me fly off the test flights out of a class b anyway

How large would you estimate your storage unit?
 
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Before I got my hangar I was looking for a workshop space. This might be a good alternative if you can find it. It might turn out to be the easier path in the short term.
 
A car guy at our airport bought a tiny, airworthy (Barely) plane for $6,000 a few years ago. He hung it in his hangar to get the airport authority off his back. I think thats wrong on many levels, but it meets the letter of the law.

That’s an option.
 
It's amazing what a phone call to a congressional representative's office can sometimes accomplish. Just sayin'.

Aviation use is supposed to, by law and FAA regulation, take precedence over non-aviation use, PERIOD. It burns me to hear from people on my field who say they're "on the waiting list" for a hangar, when I look around and see a large number of hangars that have boats, RVs, businesses, shops, etc., in them...no airplane or aviation use whatsoever. Most people want to avoid conflict, so they kinda sheepishly accept being placed on this mysterious "list" (which often doesn't exist at all) rather than push the airport authority to give them what they are entitled to by law: a hangar for their airplane (in preference to a hangar being used for non-aviation stuff).

SOOOOO true!
 
I went through this at KSMO a while back. I even went so far as looking into getting a lawyer to file a part 16 complaint! All very expensive and unlikely to work in a reasonable amount of time. Then I just did the smart thing. I just borrowed a friend's plane put it in the hangar got it "inspected" then moved my project there on a quiet weekend. Years later there have been no problems. If it can be done in Santa Monica it can probably be done in Hawaii. Always better to ask for forgiveness than permission.
 
I went through this at KSMO a while back. I even went so far as looking into getting a lawyer to file a part 16 complaint! All very expensive and unlikely to work in a reasonable amount of time. Then I just did the smart thing. I just borrowed a friend's plane put it in the hangar got it "inspected" then moved my project there on a quiet weekend. Years later there have been no problems. If it can be done in Santa Monica it can probably be done in Hawaii. Always better to ask for forgiveness than permission.
They check the registration,. It has to be registered to the person leasing the hangar

Some other issues have crept up a d it's looking like I'm going to have to bag the whole idea, unfortunately
 
They check the registration,. It has to be registered to the person leasing the hangar

Some other issues have crept up a d it's looking like I'm going to have to bag the whole idea, unfortunately

Have you called the local FSDO to discuss this? Might be worth a shot.
 
RV?

I went through this at KSMO a while back. I even went so far as looking into getting a lawyer to file a part 16 complaint! All very expensive and unlikely to work in a reasonable amount of time. Then I just did the smart thing. I just borrowed a friend's plane put it in the hangar got it "inspected" then moved my project there on a quiet weekend. Years later there have been no problems. If it can be done in Santa Monica it can probably be done in Hawaii. Always better to ask for forgiveness than permission.

Hey, I didn’t know you’re building an RV!

Skylor
 
If they've recently evicted some current tenants...

they obviously recognize a problem and are trying to solve it. With demand for hangars high at this airport, allowing an unfinished airplane in just creates another potential problem. One possible solution/suggestion to airport management might be to cull through their wait list and attempt to determine who's really legitimate. One way to do this would be to require 6 months rent as a deposit to hold a place on the list. If there's no cost to be on the list, then you've likely got the same people on wait lists at every airport on the island. Without doing something like this, no one likely knows what the demand really is. The airports end up planning and building more hangars than are necessary and end up wasting money and are back in the storage-building business.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
AOPA is probably a good resource too.
And contact the AOPA Airport Support Network (ASN) volunteer for that airport, if there is one. You can search for the different Hawaii airport ASN's at this link. As an example, for KPHL the ASN is Bill Melohon. AOPA will call the airport authority and get the FAA involved if needed. You don't have to be an AOPA member for this.

The FAA specifically addressed this issue as you posted: Shelter for maintenance, repair, or refurbishment of aircraft, but not the indefinite storage of non-operational aircraft. Construction of amateur-built or kit-built aircraft provided that activities are conducted safely;

If the airport has received FAA grant money they do not have the authority to deny it IF you fill all other requirements. We went through this here in St. Augustine years ago and the airport authority had to relent.

:cool:
 
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Looking at another angle, are you sure the space is even practical to build in? My city owned t-hangar has horrible lighting, no insulation, and only 6 outlets on one 15A circuit. I honestly don't know if it would be possible, much less enjoyable to do the whole build in there.

Are there any privately owned hangars at your airport of choice? one of them might have a corner they would rent and would more likely be set up better for building and wouldn't necessitate "going to war" with the city. Even if you push them and they they relent, I do believe they are allowed to have progress checks and set a deadline to make it a flyable airplane. So they could continue to hound you with the threat of eviction if you're not making fast or even steady progress.
 
My public airport requires an airworthy aircraft be inside the hangar. Kit or project aircraft must have a completion timeline which the builder must periodically update and be actively working.
Additionally, a hangar can be used as an FBO, maintenance shop, flight school or skydiver business, all of which are airport specific businesses. A shop that manufactures aircraft parts and accessories is not permitted because those items can be built off airport in a garage or a factory.
 
A number of people have said to contact AOPA. I'm sure their legal services are a great advocate.

I would also recommend contacting a local chapter of EAA, if one exists in HI. While AOPA can help all pilots, EAA might have a bit more knowledge or push for a builder in your area.
 
To check which? The fsdo wouldn't have anything to do with state land.

Well, it's an FAA regulation about proper use of airports which receive federal grant money...so *somebody* at the FAA is responsible for enforcing it, I'd guess. Find out who and call them! :)
 
another member that built here reached out to me and some of the other hurdles I thought were easily surmountable are going to be deal breakers. Every time I think I can finally build a plane, something comes along and stops me. For like 15 years. :mad:
I'll have to buy a flying airplane and ship it here if I want to enter the experimental world. Probably means I'll have to go with something other than a vans. Mustang ii or something.
 
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A car guy at our airport bought a tiny, airworthy (Barely) plane for $6,000 a few years ago. He hung it in his hangar to get the airport authority off his back. I think thats wrong on many levels, but it meets the letter of the law.

That’s an option.

This^^^!! And sell it when you get your airworthiness certificate. I bet a lawyer would cost almost $6,000 and that's not guaranteed to work.
 
To check which? The fsdo wouldn't have anything to do with state land.

I had the Memphis FSDO get involved in the same sort of complaint recently, i.e. airport will not allow construction in a hangar. Originally, this airport said "No construction in hangars". The FSDO's response was not entirely what I hoped for but it was apparently approved by the FAA grant complianance folks in D.C. and gave some relief. Here is what the FSDO approved and is written into their new leases:

" P. Non-commercial construction of amateur or kit-built Aircraft is allowed in the Hangar so long as it does not involve any activity prohibited by this Lease or by applicable Federal, state and local rules, regulations and ordinances, including, but not limited to, fire and safety codes. Lessee shall complete construction of any Aircraft within twelve (12) months of first entering into this Lease. If construction of the Aircraft is not completed within twelve (12) months then Lessee can apply for an extension of time of up to six (6) additional months to complete construction, so long as Lessee has been diligently engaged in the construction of the Aircraft during the first twelve (12) month period. If Lessee fails to engage in any construction activities for a thirty (30) day period of time then this Lease shall terminate."

Email me directly if you want to discuss kjashton AT vnet DOT net
 
That's fine if you're about ready to take the nearly-complete plane to the airport, but for most of us, hopelessly unrealistic if you're beginning the project.

Dave
 
no need for hangar for a lot of the work

There is a lot of building work that can be done without needing a hangar. A hangar is only needed toward the end for final fitting of the wings. Even temporary wing fitting can be done in e.g. a home driveway with the help of a couple of buddies.
I and others have managed to build wings and fuselage in spaces not much bigger than a single garage... and of course there are bits of airplane stored in various corners of the house. If you really want to build, there is a way to get lots done without a hangar.
 
Yeah, housing is a little different here than the mainland or australia, I'd assume. I don't have that kind of space here. Not to mention 10k to ship the kit here.
 
Yeah, housing is a little different here than the mainland or australia, I'd assume. I don't have that kind of space here. Not to mention 10k to ship the kit here.

Out of curiosity, how is it different?

If you have a garage, that's half the battle...
 
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Out of curiosity, how is it different?

If you have a garage, that's have the battle...

I do not have a garage, I have a carport, which is 3 blocks from the ocean so anything that doesn't get stolen, would start to show the effects of the ocean immediately. Put a new tool in my toolbox and it will literally be covered in rust in a couple weeks

space of any kind is expensive here. Houses are much smaller than the mainland, and don't usually have basements (though I am an exception and before you ask no I can't build there because the entrance is too small to get parts in or out, it's not so much a basement as a dug out crawl space you can stand in, it's actually pretty sweet)
I do not have space in my house to store two wings or a fuselage, and if I had an airplane in my carport, that's one of two parking spaces I can't use to park my vehicles (we have 2), I have no other parking. Street parking isn't really possible. Lots here get subdivided or houses get added onto for multi-generational housing until there's no space left. Means there's little to no parking that isn't on your property. My house is 1300 sqft on about 1/8 acre, I actually have a pretty big yard by oahu standards because my house is small.

there is also no DAR in the state, so I have to go through the fsdo or fly one in from the mainland (least of my issues)

I have nowhere to do final assembly

they likely will not allow phase 1 out of HNL class B, and I might have to truck the plane to dillingham, over an hour drive without traffic. I MIGHT be able to get a hangar there, but building there would be pointless as no progress would be made.

it's $10,000 to ship a kit here from the mainland. The cheapest way I can figure to get a partially completed kit I want to buy here is to buy a cargo trailer, put the kit in it, ship the trailer, and sell the trailer once here. To rent a 20' container and ship it is literally $10k. Roll on roll off service is a lot less, I think, and the trailer should be easy to sell here at purchase price.

I COULD build some sort of temp shelter out in the yard and build in it, but the rain and wind here can be viscous.. and then the rust problem, and the heat working in a plastic tarp. I wonder if there is any kind of "rent a shed" type place here. I could build in a shed or shipping container and install AC.

vans estimates $2000 to ship a finishing kit here, I can't get one in time to ship with the kit.

I had another point to make and I've forgotten it. it'll come to me. I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to be realistic within my budget. The other thing is once the kit is here it's basically worthless, so if I can't complete the build I can't sell it. A guy recently GAVE AWAY a complete -6 kit and a -14 tail kit for free because he couldn't sell it. So I need to be sure I won't run into an insurmountable obstacle. But also I'm a little mad I missed out :)
 
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Hmmmm. Sounds like, in your case, building in not an option. It boils down to how bad do you want to build, how much you are willing to spend and how much risk you are willing to take. That my friend is a decision that only you can make.

Good luck.
 
Hmmmm. Sounds like, in your case, building in not an option. It boils down to how bad do you want to build, how much you are willing to spend and how much risk you are willing to take. That my friend is a decision that only you can make.

Good luck.

I'm willing to spend more than I have ��

I've pissed away enougb money on planes I don't want to end up with 30k in a paperweight if I can't finish it
 
Just a thought ... Recently watched an episode of building off the grid where multiple 40 foot shipping containers were used to create a home. Using two 40 foot containers side by side with the common side walls removed would make one heck of shop for assembly of the major components. Final assembly could be the airport an hour away.
 
I have nowhere to do final assembly, and I might have to truck the plane to dillingham, over an hour drive without traffic. I MIGHT be able to get a hangar there, but building there would be pointless as no progress would be made.

I built my RV-9A at an airport that was pretty far away from my house, so I could only get there once a week. What I found worked pretty well was to work on individual parts (drill, deburr, dimple, prime, etc.) at my home during the week, then make the long drive to the airport on Saturdays to assemble the large structures. I stored the finished assemblies (empennage, wings, fuselage) at the airport. It sounds like you could do something similar.
 
Just a thought ... Recently watched an episode of building off the grid where multiple 40 foot shipping containers were used to create a home. Using two 40 foot containers side by side with the common side walls removed would make one heck of shop for assembly of the major components. Final assembly could be the airport an hour away.

There are places here that rent offices built in shipping containers but it occurs to me there's no way to get one on my property without a crane
 
apparently there are available hangars. I thought there was a list but they just evicted a bunch of people. they can evict you for any reason they want (and often do)
if I needed to I could find somewhere to build and just take it to the hangar for final assembly. I just don't know where.

You just gave several reasons why this airport would be off my list in a heartbeat. Evict, evict evict. Why would you want to try for a hanger after saying that.?

Thinking it was the other renters fault for eviction-you just said for "any reason". Really?

I'd look into those reason before trying to rent at all. Verify what happened, might be a big lesson why not to deal with the landlord.

Mike
 
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So I don't want to hijack this thread. I built my RV in Hawaii and was a mess when it came time to go to the airport and get an airworthiness certificate. Philip and I have exchanged a few PM's talking about the struggles I had.

The airport he is talking about has fined people for having a bicycle in the hanger because it's not aviation related. They also fine people that temporarily park in a spot that isn't assigned to them even when it's with permission from the owner of the spot. It's been a big deal there for years. Alot of people just give up and move to the mainland. It's sad, but it's just how it is. Hawaii is beautiful, but it's pretty backwards and corrupt when it comes to aviation.
 
to rent a hangar here they want the N-number, liability insurance, and most recent annual inspection. I can probably sort out 1 and 2, but #3 might be an issue.

I'm certain this is an airport that has received federal grant money and is bound by the grant agreements, to include what the FAA has designated as aviation use, which specifically includes building an aircraft.

however, they're saying no and I have no idea how or who to argue my point with.

from the airport handbook FAQ


Question 8. What aeronautical uses of a hangar are permissible?

FAA Response.

Storage of active aircraft.
Shelter for maintenance, repair, or refurbishment of aircraft, but not the indefinite storage of non-operational aircraft.
Construction of amateur-built or kit-built aircraft provided that activities are conducted safely;

I had the same issue with TKI, refused to rent to me until I had the airworthiness cert. The airport manager wouldn't see reason. I contacted the EAA, they sent an e-mail which the airport manager ignored, nothing else. I found a spot at a different airport....your options are a little more limited.
 
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