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Wheel landings or three point in the RV-8?

KCMI Pilot

I'm New Here
I have practiced three-point, full stall-type landings in RV-8 during my flight with Bruce Bohannon and they seem fine. Have not had much crosswind experience in the airplane and will probably return for more dual with Bruce for that experience. Anyone routinely play with wheel landings in the -8? How about in a crosswind? Just curious.
 
I find three point landings in my 8 more of a challenge than wheel landings. For me, crosswinds = wheel landings.

Steve
 
As Bruce taught me, 3 point always, unless the wind is down the runway and gusting to something ridiculous and I want to make sure I am on the ground in a level attitude in case the gust goes up (3 point and you'll fly away, then gust drops and stall).

I occasionally practice the wheel landings, but it is rare. I have landed in probably 15 maybe 20 cross on a 23', 3 point.
 
Wheel it...

I’ve got some time in tail aircraft, including T6, Scouts, Champs, and my RV-8.

I’m by no means an expert, however, landing with any substantial xwind, you will have more success and CONTROL with wheel landings. As soon as the mains are down, I’m getting rid of any flap I have extended.

I routinely land my RV8 on the mains. I feel I have more control in that configuration than 3 pointing it in strong xwinds.

I’ve seen a number a close calls and a few ground loops when strong xwinds were present and the pilot 3 pointed it....

My 2 cents based on my experience and hours on different tail aircraft. It works for me in being safe and successful. Others may have different experiences...doesn’t mean their wrong!

Cheers,


DP
 
I don't have much TW time, but for the very reasons stated was why I was told 3 points are better on xwind. You get the tail down immediately, tailwheel friction on the ground is higher than in the air. With a sudden xwind gust and the tail up you'll ground loop and tail on the ground not so much. Stick in the lap, and keep it straight at touch down. It made sense and has worked so far.
 
I wheel land my 8 all the time. Does nice tail low wheel landings. Handles crosswinds fine but rudder tends to lose effectiveness when the tail comes down so don't screw around in the transition. Mine doesn't 3 point worth a darn without weight in the back, it tends to drop in. However it is DONE flying so if you aren't confident in your wheel landings or crosswinds a 3 point will get you on the ground safely...just not always gracefully.
 
Lots of threads in the past about this. The RV-8 seems somewhat unique in not setting well at 3-pt attitude.

I find that just at touch-down, it feels very skiddish. No weight on the wheels so you can't brake, and can't resist much side-force. It feels very light on its feet and for a short time, you are kind of a passenger.

Any other tailwheel airplane and I am a 3-pointer as a religion.
 
As a brand new RV-8 owner and pilot, I’m going through the learning curve many of you already have. But my impression is fresh, so maybe someone (the OP?) will find value in it.

My checkout was relatively short, due to extensive Super Decathlon work-up flights and many landings. I was tailwheel current in the Super D and T-6.

My initial impression is the RV-8 asks for different techniques in different situations. Mine has super stiff Grove gear, and with me and 34g of gas, the cg works out to be 80.41” - pretty far forward, but nowhere near the front limit.

In this condition, and calm winds, I’m over the threshold at 73ish knots and decelerating. To three point, I’m out of nose-up trim and giving a *mighty* pull to full up elevator to three-point, or close to it. It’s a lot more force than is “worth it” to me. Are there times and places to do this? Sure. Would I do this in a gusty or strong crosswind? Probably not. I want to have more range and authority because I’m probably going to need it.

Wheel landings when light and forward are pretty easy. Far more easily than the above exercise.

I plan on either carrying fuel in the fuselage tank as ballast when it’s just me flying, or a couple cases of water in the aft cargo to get the cg further aft. Mid-to-aft cg really changes what the -8 seems to like in landing, as does aft.

A wheel landing in this situation/configuration (light weight and forward cg), to me, is FAR easier in terms of pilot effort. This is an elevator force/authority/out of trim issue.

On the flip side, my checkout flight was me (I’m a big guy), and my friend (even bigger), 116 lbs under gross, and a cg of 85.9”. I had to carry more power and speed to wheel it on, and a lot more forward stick to pin it after touchdown. It three-pointed so easily with the aft cg. I had plenty of trim available, and stick forces were FAR more reasonable.

So maybe the right answer is - it just depends. Match your skills, runway length and width, weather conditions, and sound judgement to what the situation calls for. Practise all types of landings - to include no-flap landings in all wind conditions - and be that well-rounded pilot that can pick the right tool for the job at hand.

Hope this helps, or at least adds something to the discussion.
 
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Steve is right - there are many, many threads on landing an -8, despite that fact that it is a really honest tail dragger. What you’ll probably find when you do some searching is that most of the RV-8 guys with more than a couple of thousand hours in type are doing a tail-low wheel landing as a default, and varying to a three-pointer when they have a combination of conditions where it seems right.

I know that you CAN three-point an -8 consistently, and Bruce is one of the guys that does it all the time...but you also have to realize that Bruce has a remarkable skill set. The pursuit of a consistent, perfect RV-8 three-pointer is a noble cause...yet you’ll probably find that a tail-low wheelie will get you a nice, safe, consistent landing until you reach that Nirvana....
 
Thank you for all of the input. I respect Bruce's opinion and will do my best to emulate his technique and heed his advice. As a long time professional pilot who takes pride in graceful touch downs, the RV8 3-point landings don't do much for my pride...lol. It is nice to know there are some options.
 
I have 10 years and hundreds of hours in the -8 and for the vast majority of that time I could not 3 point it to save my life - despite being very proficient with them in other airplanes. The "tail low, wheelie" became the default for many years. I completely bought into the "8's don't 3 point" OWT until one day after being out of the airplane for a while, I just started doing them by accident. No perceptible change in technique - no new focus or intent - it just worked. Since then, I have hundreds of 3 points (some of them pretty good) and frankly cant remember the last time I wheeled one on. For whatever reason, the airplane now "likes" 3 points.

So my humble advice is to ignore those who say the airplane cant do "X", and do whatever gives you the best control.
 
Agree with others here, tail wheel low wheelie landing, more control.
My 8 is almost impossible to do a 3 pointer wth just me onboard, it's a heavy machine but I don't mind it plants well:)
 
I had tailwind endorsements in the Cub and C-140 when I checked out in my RV-8, so I started with 3-pointers. I soon learned, however, that wheel landings work much better for me. They are tail-low, or 2 and 1/2 pointers as they say. As soon as the mains touch, I bring the stick back to take advantage of aerodynamic braking without becoming airborne again. I use the same technique in crosswinds, and it worked with a 50 degree crosswind at 20 gusting to 32. I'm also experimenting with tire pressure because I'm beginning to suspect that high tire pressure contributes to bouncing. The max for my tires is 35 PSI, but I tend to keep them at 32 PSI, checking the pressure at least quarterly. Perhaps the optimum pressure varies with different tires.
 
I had tailwind endorsements in the Cub and C-140 when I checked out in my RV-8, so I started with 3-pointers. I soon learned, however, that wheel landings work much better for me. They are tail-low, or 2 and 1/2 pointers as they say. As soon as the mains touch, I bring the stick back to take advantage of aerodynamic braking without becoming airborne again. I use the same technique in crosswinds, and it worked with a 50 degree crosswind at 20 gusting to 32. I'm also experimenting with tire pressure because I'm beginning to suspect that high tire pressure contributes to bouncing. The max for my tires is 35 PSI, but I tend to keep them at 32 PSI, checking the pressure at least quarterly. Perhaps the optimum pressure varies with different tires.

I didn't know you needed an endorsement to have a tailwind. Is that why all my trips always seem to end up having headwinds ! :eek:
 
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Shackletons

I asked a friend of mine who had 7000 hours on Shackletons if they ever used to 3 point them...he just looked at me quizzically.

With an RV8....why land a 100 000 dollar aeroplane on a 50 dollar tail wheel? That's why you have main gear attached to the main spar.

I admit though there are times when you get to the flare and it is easier to just three point it rather than wheel it.

Just my thoughts.
 
Definitive Guide

i think someone like Paul Dye or another wordsmith should take all the threads on landing an RV-8 and put them into the "Definitive Guide of how to land the RV-8". After reading a dozen threads I assumed it would be somewhere between riding a unicycle while juggling chainsaws, and eating a slice of Aunt Myrtle's apple pie. The problem is even if he writes this, I'll still read these threads, since I seem to learn something new each time, and really enjoy the banter!
 
For some reason, I can’t recall many folks talking about how good it feels to grease a 3-point landing in the RV-8. Perhaps my memory is failing me. ;)

Go with what works best for you.
 
i think someone like Paul Dye or another wordsmith should take all the threads on landing an RV-8 and put them into the "Definitive Guide of how to land the RV-8".

I choose not to write about religious issues....and this comes right after “How Many Angels Can Dance On The Head of a Pin”..... ;)
 
To start; I’m a fan of being proficient in any type of flying that your airplane can do, thinking there is a time and a place for, in this case, either type of landing.

That said; for the past 3 years, my tailwheel has been a constant maintenance item. First, the stinger was loose in the weldment. The next year the weldment was loose on the bulkhead. The year after the attach block was worn at the steering shaft. All this to say, I don’t trust the tailwheel to be anywhere near as strong as the spring steel “MAIN” landing gear.

Therefore, I strive for the tail low wheel landing in the -8, so as not to abuse the tailwheel on the rough pavement at my home field. Occasionally I’ll 3-point the airplane accidentally, but it isn’t the goal, and I see it as an error since my intent was a wheel landing.

Just my 0.02. In all other tailwheel airplanes I’ve flown, I try to be proficient at both types of landings.
 
I do tail low wheelies every time simply because I find them harder to do than 3 points.

Having said that, while I've 3-pointed L-4's, Super D's and Citabrias, I've never even tried to 3 point my -8. Mainly because of what I've read here.
 
Does adding a smidge of power at the touchdown to increase elevator authority help any in a -8 three-point attempt?
 
Yes but you are adding another variable. .I notice when people try to land by manipulating two things (elevator and throttle) it almost always isn't pretty. If you need to add power to cushion the decent rate, or add directional control over the tail, then do it, but just keep in mind that moving two things may cause you to over control a little. .
 
Does adding a smidge of power at the touchdown to increase elevator authority help any in a -8 three-point attempt?

Don't know about increasing elevator authority but I find that adding a smidge of power gets a little air over the wing and prevents the bottom from dropping out when I'm about 6-12 inches above the ground. Then I slowly back it off and that gives me a greaser
 
Does adding a smidge of power at the touchdown to increase elevator authority help any in a -8 three-point attempt?

What it does is to slow the deceleration rate that you get at idle (I am talking about airplanes with C/S props, which is probably a majority of RV-8’s). The RV-8 has been shown to have a bit of a negative pitch rate gradient with an aft CG when you get slow, so as you are decelerating over the runway with a heavy passenger, it feels like the bottom drops out And you have to push forward to keep the nose from pitching up and the tail from striking first. Adding that touch of power slows the deceleration rate and gives you more time to make a smooth touchdown before that Funny feeling in pitch sets in.

And before folks start to think that the RV-8 is complicated, it really isn’t - it is one of the easiest and most predictable taildraggers I fly. Aft CG is about the only place it gets a little odd, but other than that, the thing is simple and honest.

Paul
 
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