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Wearing a parachute for cross country.

Toddsanderson

Well Known Member
OK, so I sold my Glasair because it scared my wife. It was just too much plane for her to handle if I became incapacitated. There was no BRS option, so I traded it for a Cirrus. After owning the Cirrus about 7 minutes I realized how much I hated it, so I am looking for a compromise.

The RV14 appears to have decent speed, interior room, baggage room, and is easy enough to fly that my wife could likely get it on the ground in case I cannot fly the plane.

With that said, an extra measure of safety (and piece of mind) for my wife would be wearing an emergency backup parachute. In my old Iskra TS-11 I wore a bulky military chute every time I flew; however, it had metal seats and comfort wan't really a factor in the plane anyway. You were just hoping to get back on the ground alive.

Would a chute such as the micro softie be comfortable to wear in a long x-county? You can buy a pair of them for $5k which is about $25k less than installing BRS on an RV, but if it is too uncomfortable to wear it is a non starter.

One benefit I see over BRS is the ability to exit the plane with your chute in case of a fire instead of burning up in the plane. One disadvantage would we trying to exit a plane that could be tumbling out of control.

Anyone have experience wearing them on long x county trips??
 
Also, I have read the various threads about not being able to get the canopy off of an RV in flight, and why you do or don't need a chute for acro regs, etc.

The way I understand it is that the 14 has a jettison able canopy. I'm just trying to figure out if it would be comfortable enough to wear.
 
We’ve got a Micro-Softie that was custom-tailored for our RV-3, with sheepskin to match the cushion that it replaces when we wear it. I dont wear it that often, but when I do, I don;t really notice it being much different than the back cushion. Of course, you’ve now got a harness on that, if you have it as tight as you’d want if you were jumping, might very well get old after a few hours.

Borrow a chute from a local friend and wear it sitting in a chair for five hours. If you can stand that, then have your wife try the same thing! That’s probably how you’ll know....
 
I might be wrong, but have never heard of anybody actually jumping out of an RV midflight.

Being it is super rare that the wings would fall off, my backup plan has always been to just keep flying it. I suspect just the process of dumping the canopy and getting out is more risky than learning how to fly a glider.
 
Chute

I might be wrong, but have never heard of anybody actually jumping out of an RV midflight.

Being it is super rare that the wings would fall off, my backup plan has always been to just keep flying it. I suspect just the process of dumping the canopy and getting out is more risky than learning how to fly a glider.

Well there was one, unfortunately he was not wearing a chute.
 
yes to parachute

I live in the Denver area. Anytime I head west I am often over mountainous terrain with NO place to land! I always wear a parachute in that situation. My wife wears one too and is on a static line attached to the seat belt anchors. I've cut my canopy rails so I confident I can get the canopy off my RV-8. If the motor quits the insurance company owns it!
 
Have her learn how to operate the autopilot

If you have a good autopilot that is easy to use, a non-pilot could get the airplane on the ground - the landing itself may not be pretty, but it would be survivable.

The Garmin GMC 305/307 AP has the "big blue LVL buttton" which will hold the plane on a straight and level course with the push of 1 button.

If you can get your wife to learn how to load an approach from something like a GTN 650/750, the AP will fly the entire approach all the way to the runway. However, since there is no auto throttle, your would wife would have to learn a bit about operating the throttle.

The last 100 feet or so would be the hard part - slowing down, touching down and applying the brakes. In my opinion, this would be more survivable than trying to use a parachute.

To be honest, I haven't got my wife past the big blue button step but I hopefully I can get her to learn more at some point.
 
If you have a good autopilot that is easy to use, a non-pilot could get the airplane on the ground - the landing itself may not be pretty, but it would be survivable.

The Garmin GMC 305/307 AP has the "big blue LVL buttton" which will hold the plane on a straight and level course with the push of 1 button.

If you can get your wife to learn how to load an approach from something like a GTN 650/750, the AP will fly the entire approach all the way to the runway. However, since there is no auto throttle, your would wife would have to learn a bit about operating the throttle.

The last 100 feet or so would be the hard part - slowing down, touching down and applying the brakes. In my opinion, this would be more survivable than trying to use a parachute.

To be honest, I haven't got my wife past the big blue button step but I hopefully I can get her to learn more at some point.

Sounds reasonable, but you haven't met my wife. For 25 years she flew with me in everything from Saratogas to Dukes and never an issue. Ice, mountains, Thunderstorms, etc- no problem. She even slept most of the time. She probably has 2000 hours with me. When our kids got older she developed anxiety about everything and flying really sets her off.

I even went as far as to have a custom built simulator made that was the exact physical build of my plane right down to the Beechcraft Yoke, fuel pump switches etc. I am a CFI and gave her instruction in the sim and she did ok. Once we got into the real plane and entered the clouds or hit a bump she would let go of the yoke. I tried for years to get her to control the plane in a landing scenario and it just doesn't work. Her fear is of me dying and her being forced to land the plane by herself.

So, in one final attempt I picked a perfect day to fly the Glasair with G3X. I had her flying the Glasair pretty good doing climbing turns and descents and controlling airspeed pretty well. She could run the autopilot and could use the blue button just fine. However, had I let her continue a descent to landing she would die every time and that is with the gear up. With the gear down she lost control immediately as the pitch changes and airspeed changes with gear movement freaked her out.

She does fine when we take the Citation since it is me and another pilot, but she still is uneasy because the plane is so complex. In the Cirrus she still didn't like flying but that red handle made her feel safe.

I think if I had a plane like the 14 or maybe a super ES that had fixed gear and simple systems I could overcome her fear to fly and if she had a parachute just in case she cannot and I die she has an out.
 
Hi Todd,

Just curious, what don't you like about the Cirrus?

To your original question---I wore a parachute during a significant portion of my phase 1 and thought it was a bit uncomfortable. A -10 is probably easier to bail out of, too.
 
Hi Todd,

Just curious, what don't you like about the Cirrus?

To your original question---I wore a parachute during a significant portion of my phase 1 and thought it was a bit uncomfortable. A -10 is probably easier to bail out of, too.


The cracking finish on a 10 year old plane that was hangared all it's life, the "dead" feel in the side stick, the doors that did not shut consistently, the worthless TKS system, the poorly designed electrical system, the ineffective A/C system, the 162 knot cruise, the $15k rebuild of the BRS, the ridiculous price to maintain a warranty on the Avidyne displays, parts prices that make Beechcraft seem cheap, the rock hard seats, and the horrible wheel pants. Other than that, it was a great plane.
 
I live in the Denver area. Anytime I head west I am often over mountainous terrain with NO place to land! I always wear a parachute in that situation. My wife wears one too and is on a static line attached to the seat belt anchors. I've cut my canopy rails so I confident I can get the canopy off my RV-8. If the motor quits the insurance company owns it!

Bob, Could you please elaborate on what you mean by "I've cut my canopy rails"??:confused::confused:
 
I assume he means that he has notched the upper tracks of the rails out so when the canopy slides back it can also come up. Good idea if you want to exit the plane in flight.
 
Seems like a lot of questions have been raised here, but to your original question about the comfort of a parachute, I can say that I wear mine all the time including when I fly my plane to Oshkosh. I fly a Christen Eagle and wear a chute since my main mission is aerobatics. I can't speak to other brands, but I wear a National 360 and have no comfort issues. It is a backpack, and since I always wear it, maybe it is just that I am used to it, but to me it is just normal.
 
I think it's a great idea and I've done it many, many times. Wore my chute all the way from San Diego to Oshkosh and back in my RV-3. The peace of mind that comes from wearing a parachute is irreplaceable.

As for comfort, if the right chute and fitted properly it shouldn't be uncomfortable at all. I'm a parachute rigger and have lots of customers that are glider pilots and wear their parachutes for many hours on a given flight. They never complain about comfort. Again, the right chute and the right fit.
 
I'll throw something out there that may be worth thinking about.
The money spent on a new chute may be better allocated to finding an instructor who is good with new/nervous pilots and get them to spend some air time in your future RV-14 with your wife.
The RV's have some of the most benign handling out of any aircraft I have ever flown. Just looking at how long it takes any person who has never flown before to pick up basic handling of the RV, if I was to place a bet on their survivability in a case of my impairment, I would think they were much more likely to survive if they attempted a landing at an airfield and severely botched it rather than trying to jump out of an aeroplane for the first time. After getting rid of the canopy and facing 200 mph winds, climbing out of the now out of control aircraft and not getting creamed by the tail, they still need remember to pull their parachute, then land in potentially hostile territory and find their way to civilization (forest, water, frozen tundra etc etc.).
Besides, you may only be unconscious and not fully cactus, so they may not even want to leave you to your sure demise.
If I was in your seat, I would do as an earlier poster has suggested and get a big blue "level" button (to buy them time and get calm first), teach them how to press the "nearest" button on the GPS and get some hands on training by a suitable instructor if you don't think you are up to the task.
On top of all this, I would write a check list/instructions for them that they they can stick on the right side of the panel and read every flight. Keep it basic and to the point. We've seen numerous times that RV's landed badly (and even flipped on their roof) can be walked away from, so so even if the landing is botched, you've both still got a winning chance.
Good luck.
Tom
RV-7
 
Tom,

Those are good points. I have given her instruction in everything from a C-182 to the Glasair, and she quits flying the plane once a little turbulence is hit. Thinking it is me, I had her fly with other instructors as well. Same problem.

I agree with you that it would be best to have her fly the plane to a landing. I guess the worst case scenario is that I buy another plane and if she just won't come around she can ride on the airlines.
 
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If you can get her a ride in an RV-10 and then in an RV-14, then she might be able to tell you what airplane she'd like to fly in. Leave it open-ended so that she's not needing to choose between just those two. But don't be too surprised if it's the jet.

Dave
 
If you can get her a ride in an RV-10 and then in an RV-14, then she might be able to tell you what airplane she'd like to fly in. Leave it open-ended so that she's not needing to choose between just those two. But don't be too surprised if it's the jet.

Dave

Yep. I agree. They only reason she likes riding in the Citation is the fact that two pilots are flying it. She feels like I do about the wastefulness of burning 900 gallons of fuel to go back and fourth. The airlines scare her as much as flying with one pilot in a slower plane, but the duration is shorter, so that helps.
 
Sounds like she's developed a full-fledged fear of flying, and if that's the case then there is nothing you can do short of a psychiatrist to fix it.
 
I'm going to offer some food for thought from a different point of view -- is your wife actually mentally prepared to bail out? Please be brutally honest with yourself and with her. My $.02, based upon how you've described her is she's not. While I've never bailed out I was a paratrooper in a previous life and if you've never done it the mental hurdles are difficult to overcome without training -- even in a life or death emergency. My point is I think a personal parachute in the scenario you are describing would at best only provide a false sense of security. My vote would be to pursue more pinch-hitter type training focusing on A/P use as has been previously suggested.
 
Motivation

I'm going to offer some food for thought from a different point of view -- is your wife actually mentally prepared to bail out? Please be brutally honest with yourself and with her. My $.02, based upon how you've described her is she's not. While I've never bailed out I was a paratrooper in a previous life and if you've never done it the mental hurdles are difficult to overcome without training -- even in a life or death emergency. My point is I think a personal parachute in the scenario you are describing would at best only provide a false sense of security. My vote would be to pursue more pinch-hitter type training focusing on A/P use as has been previously suggested.
My only real fear is fire. Bailing out of an airplane with a serious fire would be the lesser of two evils. The RV pilot in the NW who bailed out without a chute did so because of fire.
 
I'm going to offer some food for thought from a different point of view -- is your wife actually mentally prepared to bail out? Please be brutally honest with yourself and with her. My $.02, based upon how you've described her is she's not. While I've never bailed out I was a paratrooper in a previous life and if you've never done it the mental hurdles are difficult to overcome without training -- even in a life or death emergency. My point is I think a personal parachute in the scenario you are describing would at best only provide a false sense of security. My vote would be to pursue more pinch-hitter type training focusing on A/P use as has been previously suggested.

Very good point. I'm also leaning on more training with maybe trying a different angle on the approach.
 
Solution

I have the Solution:

You and your wife fly to Portland and schedule a Rv14 flight...or in any of the other models. Let her see how docile (yet great X country birds) and total performance they are.

Then reassure her by teaching her how to land one god forbid you become incapacitated...

?? Maybe??
 
I have the Solution:

You and your wife fly to Portland and schedule a Rv14 flight...or in any of the other models. Let her see how docile (yet great X country birds) and total performance they are.

Then reassure her by teaching her how to land one god forbid you become incapacitated...

?? Maybe??

You and I both know that, but it is hard to get someone with anxiety to overcome the condition. In the G3 she absolutely loved the ride with the heavy wing loading, but the plane scared her because of the skill it took to land the plane. In the lower loaded wing like the Bonanza she freaks out over the bumps, but can pretty much land the plane with no problem.

I think the key is getting her to overcome the fear of the bumps in a plane like an RV that are easy to fly.
 
My .02 is it might be best to start with seeing if she'll talk to a Dr or therapist to see if they can help her work through the anxiety before asking her to get back in the plane. Constantly putting her back in the situation might be making it worse and not better. I do agree that the more training and information she has on what's going on should help, but there might be other coping mechanisms that you/she hasn't thought of that a professional might could help with.

Lynn
 
Since you solicited advice, it seems like perhaps you need more than airplane advice.

A passenger suffering from the level of anxiety you describe doesn't seem like a good candidate to land an aircraft successfully in an emergency. Nor to bail out successfully. Even trained pilots sometimes have bad results in these situations.

It seems to me either she needs to go via airline to your destination, or she needs to go with you in your preferred aircraft, but under a strong prescription anti-anxiety medication or sedative.

Personally, if I were a passenger suffering a level of in-flight anxiety so high that I could not be trained to fly the aircraft to a landing in an emergency, I pretty much would not be interested in flying GA at all.

Just my opinion, worth what was paid for it...

-Paragon
Cincinnati, OH
 
I wear a chute in my RV-4

Since the majority of my ?fun? flying is in formation and acro, I now where a chute in my RV-4 on every flight. It?s a Strong Seat chute. While not as comfortable as my hand made/form fit seat cushions were, the comfort I feel from this safety item makes up for it. While I agree in general you should be able to land an RV, there are some things only a chute will remedy. Good luck in your search!
 
Why not look at an RV-9?

With it's lowered landing speed, your chance of survival is better.

Either way, pinch hitters course sounds like a better investment than parachutes.
 
Very good point. I'm also leaning on more training with maybe trying a different angle on the approach.

I'll throw in my opinion...
A different approach sounds like a good idea. If she is afraid to fly, she will have no motivation to learn to fly. The first thing, as others have mention, is work on overcoming the fear. Otherwise everything else is wasted effort.
I also believe trying to teach anything to a spouse is a bad idea. A student /teacher realationship immediately creates a power difference and is another barrier to motivation and learning.
 
My only real fear is fire. Bailing out of an airplane with a serious fire would be the lesser of two evils. The RV pilot in the NW who bailed out without a chute did so because of fire.

Same here. As in post-crash fire. As soon as I bail out I take that concern right out of the equation. In fact, I can use smoke from the fire to determine wind direction for landing :D

As a professional in the parachute business, this discussion of parachute or not amuses and concerns me. Parachutes save lives, airplane crashes kill people. I know of SIX successful bail outs from last year alone. That is SIX guys that were able to go home and kiss their wives and hug their kids. I wonder how many died in RV crashes last year..
 
4 seats

Just get a 4 seater that you like.
Take another pilot along when you fly with her!
Otherwise enjoy flying.
 
Same here. As in post-crash fire. As soon as I bail out I take that concern right out of the equation. In fact, I can use smoke from the fire to determine wind direction for landing :D

As a professional in the parachute business, this discussion of parachute or not amuses and concerns me. Parachutes save lives, airplane crashes kill people. I know of SIX successful bail outs from last year alone. That is SIX guys that were able to go home and kiss their wives and hug their kids. I wonder how many died in RV crashes last year..

I'm with you 100% here. When I was flying the Iskra there was not even a thought to what I would do if I had a fire, engine failure, or loss of control. I was pulling the ejection handle and floating under the canopy. The plane was sold to the insurance company at that point.
 
I wonder how many died in RV crashes last year..

I am not going to argue fore or against full time use of a chute when flying, but when discussing stats and other details as part of that decision process, we should consider the full scope not just small bits.....

Regarding the above question -
What should really be asked is how many died in RV crashes last year where the availability of a chute would have allowed for a different outcome?

My opinion is that it would have been very very few... if any at all.
Anyone reading through NTSB reports will quickly see that most all accidents occur in the context of situations where a chute would have been of no use even if the occupants had them.

So, I'm not saying they have no value.... clearly in certain specific circumstances they can mean the difference between surviving or not, but those specific circumstances are very rare.
 
I would look at the 10. It has to be easier to get the doors open than the canopy. Ride in both. I have heard the 10 is similar to the Cirrus, but still has the fun of flying left in.
 
Here are some pics of how I?ve cut my rails. It has never been a problem even on the windiest days but I do NOT keep the canopy stoped at the cuts. Concerning the discussion that there?s a lot of forward pressure on the canopy my intent would be to slow down to just above stall speed or even stall it if I can?t get it back. However I suspect with adrenaline it won?t be an issue! This is all just theory of course. I hope I never need to create a data point!






 
Interesting Discussion

It's one thing getting disoriented in a plane with a BRS, pulling the handle, and not having to think about the relatively minimal damage the plane will likely do to persons or things on the ground. It's quite another to bail out of a perfectly good aircraft (leaving your spouse behind?) with no thought of what potential damage the bird will do on impact.
In fact, my own experience tells me that most penetration into IMC occurs during the takeoff/climb-out and approach/landing phases, where there's more likely to be some population density. If you bail out then, you probably have a greater chance of scoring some kills with your unmanned bomb. Enroute and above the weather (like most instrument flights), not so much if you decide to exit.
If I'm flying aerobatics, I want a chute on (just in case the plane suddenly becomes "unflyable"). Otherwise, unless I'm often flying over inhospitable territory, the plane needs to be flown or floated to the ground.
With that in mind, to the OP, I would suggest if your wife really likes the big, red handle overhead, you need to learn to like the plane that carries it. Otherwise, take the Citation - it's a great option and one that most of us would envy.
Terry, CFI
RV9A N323TP
 
Yah but

All good points but my particular situation puts me over the uninhabited and unlandable Rocky Mountains a LOT of the time (I live in the Denver area). That?s why my wife is on a static line ... have her unbuckle, jettison the canopy, roll inverted and push... see ya on the ground honey! I rode on real ejection seats a lot in my military career. Those decisions need to (and have been) made on the ground at zero airspeed. If I was building a -10 I would absolutely consider a BRS system.
 
I appreciate the responses. I just can't do another Cirrus. I'm still kicking around a 14 or 10, and maybe BRS is an option on either of them. The Citation is great, but 20 trips a year at $10k each is just ridiculous.
 
As a professional in the parachute business said:
I’ve heard the saying:”In an emergency the pilot’s(and passenger’s) performance descends to the level of his/her recent training”. Unfortunately, you can’t train for bailing out of an RV the way you can for stalls and go-arounds, as training generally is limited to visualization exercises and mental checklist practice.

This presents a dilemma with regard to parachutes for passengers, one that I’ve not been able to resolve fully. It really depends upon the passenger, and I basically let them decide, after some explanation of what is involved, wether we take the chutes or leave them behind. Leaving them behind simplifies things, taking them complicates the flight considerably. You have to ensure the chute is well fitted and worn properly, decide on a fixed set of upper body garments for the entire flight, and provide the passenger with thorough training on the decision process, canopy ejection sequence, and bailout procedures. Skirts and dresses can be a problem.

I like aerobatics, and never fly my 7A tilt-up solo without a chute. A rigorous self-training for bailout precedes each takeoff, including an attempt to viscerally imagine that everything I’m practicing is in the context of a badly damaged or burning airplane tumbling out of control. “Headsets off, secure upper canopy latch (so the canopy does a back-flip), open main canopy latch, locate and firmly pull canopy release, dis-engage seatbelts, find a way to push clear from aircraft, make visual contact with rip-cord, insert thumbs of both hands if possible and push firmly away”. All followed by a mental review of how to “fly” the parachute to a safe landing.

That is a lot to put an occasional or one-time passenger through. Just conveying a sense of what the bailout experience would be like may amount to convincing a passenger to skip the flight altogether! Just going through the motions of donning and removing the chute for each flight becomes a burden. Then there is the 30 Lb. payload reduction. In the end, flying with two chutes is rare, and my wife is not yet convinced that it is worth the trouble.- Otis
 
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Mr. Holt, what type parachute do you use in your RV-7?

I use a mini-Softie wedge with the seat back removed. Weighs 15#, It is quite comfortable and results in a slightly more reclined sitting position. I’m very happy with it.- Otis
 
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A tricky dance

I would neither encourage nor discourage anyone from wearing a chute.

It looks complicated enough even with no canopy in this MX video as demonstrated in a few different exit methods and attitudes.

https://youtu.be/RAvFc9rlXPI

Good Luck

PS: FYI, Super Dave Mathieson - the owner / pilot of the MX in the video earned his Super Dave title when flying as a bush pilot. After the pitch and roll control disconnected / fell apart in flight he used his body weight inside the cabin to fly , trim and land the Cessna. IIRC he managed to line it up and land on a runway.
 
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So far in this thread I haven't seen the use of pip-pins (quick release pins) mentioned, instead of cutting the canopy rails. Many folks, including myself, have replaced the the two bolts that hold the front roller assemblies to the canopy frame with pip-pins. Here is a link to one of the threads that discusses it.

As far as being able to pull the pins in-flight, "kevinh" (RV-7A) states in the first post of that thread, "From the testing I performed in flight you can slightly lift/lower these wheels with the pressure of your hand, so I don't think these screws are highly loaded."

In the RV-8, the canopy would only have to open enough to clear the windscreen fairing, before pulling the pip-pins and pushing the front of the canopy up into the airstream. Based on the late Jon Thocker's testing of opening the RV-8's canopy in-flight, one should be able to open the canopy enough to clear the windscreen fairing under many conditions. See his thread on the subject.

Note that there is the possibility of the canopy hitting the pilot's or passenger's head as it departs. A helmet would be in order, as Sean Tucker discusses at 3:55 in this video of when he bailed out of his aerobatic biplane several years ago. Even though he had time to prepare for bailing out, and he purposely leaned forward before jettisoning the canopy, the canopy hit his helmet with such force that he thinks he may have been disabled by the blow without the helmet.

Note that If you plan to use pip-pins on the canopy, make sure they stay lubed and free. Some have found corrosion in the roller bracket and the canopy frame tubing, making the pip-pins difficult to remove. It's probably worthwhile to pull and lube every annual.

I've used the pip pins on my 8. If I knew I was going to fly acro, I'd remove them before takeoff, using the front windscreen roll bar and canopy lock handle to hold the canopy in place. That way, I didn't have to worry about the extra step of pulling the pip pins out if I needed to bail out in a hurry. Never a problem. Then one day, I was down by the guy I bought the airplane from. He advised--leave the pip pins in--for fear the canopy might slide back and depart the airplane during acro. So then, he had me scared. What say you more experienced guys?? Is it safe to take them out "before" doing any acro? Ron Schreck,---Jerry Esquanazi--Can you chime in here??:confused:
 
I have worn my chute on cross country in my RV-4. Normally only put chute on for Acro, but the worst place for your chute is in the hanger when you need to bail in flight. The reason to leave behind is weight, when I had passenger and bags.

There are so many good "comfortable" parachutes on the market from many manufactures as mentioned... Micro Softie is good... The back pack is probably the best, and you can have a soft cover (lambs wool) that attaches to parachute shell for your back to rest on. You remove the back seat cushion and the chute takes that space. It will NOT be more comfortable than seat upholstery, and it's a bit of a pain to put on and take off.

Most manufactures know AC type and can recommend model. Next step try them. Best place are conventions, like Oshkosh were they have all the vendors and you can try the different models on (and they are often discounted).

There are many things to understand before using a chute for sport aviation. RV14 can jettison canopy if you set it up that way (I think it's like the RV6/RV7 tip up).

She should have at min ground training, know how to pull D-ring, know where the risers are, land into wind and have cell phone on her person (and also PLB even better). She should wear the chute getting in and out of plane, not leave it in plane. This reinforces how to get out with it on. It will be a commitment. It is also not cheap. Doing tandem jump is not mandatory.

The RV14 may inspire her to decide to fly it.... I am a CFI as well. I recommend you give her dual in the RV14 (when you build one or buy one). I think that is a better option to bailing out.

Get a good medical, cardiologist, EKG. and assure you wife you will not become incapacitated in flight, and you will out live her and re-marry a 25 year old. :D

Keep the Cirrus.

If it makes her feel better to wear a chute fine, but I don't think it's as practical as the other options.
 
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