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E-mag / P-mag

vlittle

Well Known Member
If anyone out there has any experience with the new emag/pmag ignitions, please provide an update.

http://emagair.com

I'm especially interested about installation in an RV, flight experiences and impressions about product quality.

Vern Little, RV-9A
 
E Mags

vlittle said:
If anyone out there has any experience with the new emag/pmag ignitions, please provide an update.

http://emagair.com

I'm especially interested about installation in an RV, flight experiences and impressions about product quality.

Vern Little, RV-9A

+++++++++++++++++++++
I've been talking to them about a replacement for the dual mags on my O-320 H2AD .I am impressed by their honesty and forthrightness. I think they have a great product.
Vern Darley
Peachtree City, GA
RV-6A
 
GAMI Info

I saw that the GAMI folks were working on an electronic ignition. If their efforts are up to their usual standards it may be worth waiting for. Here is some of the email excnange I had with them. George

----- Original Message -----

From: John-Paul Townsend
To: George V. Goff
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2004 9:27 AM
Subject: RE: GAMI's PRISMT Electronic Ignition -
George,
It is not yet available for experimentals.
It will handle any and all engines provided that the timing unit physically fits on the engine and the timing gear ratios are correct for that engine.
So having said that, almost all common, horizontally opposed, TCM and Lycoming engines in use today in GA aircraft (and some swamp boats) will be able to use our electronic ignition system.

Thanks,
John-Paul Townsend

-----Original Message-----
From: George V. Goff [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 9:26 PM
To: comments
Subject: GAMI's PRISMT Electronic Ignition -

Is your GAMI's PRISM? Electronic Ignition - available yet for experimental aircraft?
When it is available will it handle non-fuel injected engines?
Is it aimed at the top end market (in HP) or will it handle an O-320 with high compression cylinders (160 HP)?
Thank you, George Goff
 
I've found them pretty forthcoming as well. I'm still looking for an installation manual so I can finish my wiring. I'm ready to order an engine so I have to make my decision pretty quickly.

At least the PMAG/EMAG bolts on to the magneto pads, and no external boxes are required. I'll need a pair of fused circuits to power them, and I think they may have a D-Sub connector for programming, if required.

Anyone who has an install manual, please let me know.

Vern Little RV-9A



Vern said:
+++++++++++++++++++++
I've been talking to them about a replacement for the dual mags on my O-320 H2AD .I am impressed by their honesty and forthrightness. I think they have a great product.
Vern Darley
Peachtree City, GA
RV-6A
 
On The Fence

Wow! we really are impressed with the E Mag here in N Texas.
I first learned to navagate with a sextant. NEXT....., Sat- Nav came on, it sucked.
Then came LORAN, for air planes/ boats ,I waited, and waited, held on to my $$$. Out of the sky! GPS! I think? I saved a bunch by wating for GPS.
Right or wrong, I am not sorry I waited for GPS.
Now the E Mag reveoulition is happening. I wish I had the same forward vision.
I just changed my two Lycoming powered air planes to SLICK MAGS.
It is getting old and expensive to keep up these mags.
Is the E Mag the answer? Let me hear what you think.
Thanks
 
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emag/pmag ordered

OK, I've bitten the bullet and ordered an EMAG/PMAG pair with automotive ignition.

I'm not sure about the automotive ignition and EMC (radio noise). If anyone out there has experience good or bad with auto ignition systems on aircraft, I'd like to hear from you. If this is a problem, I can change my order. It's much easier to change from auto to aviation harness than the other way.

Aerosport Power is installing a couple of these systems very soon on their engines, and they seem familiar with it, so that's good news. I hope that a few of you out there will be flying with them before I'm ready.

Normally, I'm risk averse and want 20yrs of proven reliability before I commit, but... Electronic ignitions are not new, only E-mag Ignitions, the company is new.

So, we are betting on a company and it's execution and not a technology. All indications (my conversations, their order backlog) indicate that they are off and running as an operating business, and seem to be putting into place the equipment that they need for the long term.

I'd like to see some altitude/pressure testing and vibration testing first. They are putting in a pressure chamber, I did not ask about the vibration testing, but that is simple to put in place as well.

I plan on a dual electronic ignition. If, in my opinion, there is not enough validation testing or in-flight testing before I'm ready to fly, I'll put in a conventional mag for a while.

Vern Little RV-9A
 
Electronic Ignition isn't new, just the company.

It is my understanding that there have been some starting issues with the E-mag and P-mag. The Unison Lasar electronic ignition is still the top of the line, with pre-programmed advance curves, and dual redundancy, it is the way to go in electronic ignition. :)
 
ignitionguy said:
It is my understanding that there have been some starting issues with the E-mag and P-mag. The Unison Lasar electronic ignition is still the top of the line, with pre-programmed advance curves, and dual redundancy, it is the way to go in electronic ignition. :)

The only starting issue I have heard about is positive. This is the only electronic mag that Skytech will warranty their starters with due to kick back damage. This is because the Emag will not advance the timing until running, where the other types may. There is a statement from Skytech on the Skytech website somewhere.

I'd like to know more about this starting problem if there is a story. I have an Emag bolting to my engine now, with a Slick mag on the left for backup.

UPDATE: 2/9/05 Just got an email from Brad at E Mag. Evidently there have been starting issues for this device. It happens as a hesitation while going from starting to running. Emag is addressing it by a small firmware update (#04) done free of charge. Since my Emag was still in the box I sent it in for the upgrade. Worth noting: Emag has also had a few issues with oil seals on devices prior to Serial Number 117 IIRC. If you send it in they will fix FOC again. Great customer support and willing to adapt to customer improvement suggestions.
 
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E-mag

I have been running an E-mag since October. I have had no starting issues with it, except that starting is much better than on the old mags.

The problem with the Lasar ignition is that the plugs must be gapped at 0.018 to allow the ignition to run in "mag" mode. This means that you lose out on one of the major benefits of electronic ignitions - a much hotter spark. I'm using the emag recommended 0.035 plug gap. The other lasar problem is the control box, the emag advantage is that everything mounts where the magneto mounted. No extraneous components to mount.

The original emags/pmags used a 3 wire connector - those shipping now use a 4 wire set up (separated the "stop producing sparks" wire from the tach pulse - means only one mag is needed to drive the tach, no drop outs when mag testing). I am using automotive leads & plugs and have had no radio interference problems. The ability to use $2 plugs is a real bonus.

I have found E-mag a great company to deal with, friendly, prompt service with firmware updates provided foc (on the one occasion it was required). I
recently had my engine overhaulled by Aerosport power who screwed up the E-mag somehow. E-mag checked it out, again foc. They get my vote.
 
Ignitionguy Unison?

ignitionguy said:
It is my understanding that there have been some starting issues with the E-mag and P-mag. The Unison Lasar electronic ignition is still the top of the line, with pre-programmed advance curves, and dual redundancy, it is the way to go in electronic ignition. :)
NO offense to ignitionguy but the Lasar has had lots and lots of problems. You can often find them on eBay for sale cheap. The idea of a marriage of traditional Magneto and electronic ignition sounds good, but it adds a whole level of complication, weight and reliability issues. I understand they needed to do this to make the FAA happy, but for an experimental aircraft I think the Lightspeed, JeffRose and The P-mag/E-mag offer a better set-up. From someone who is named ignitionguy and has no name, I have to ask, do you work for Unison? :eek: George
 
Jeff Rose status?

As a point of interest I believe that Jeff Rose is no longer selling new ignitions. Apparently he still supports those in the field, but I understand he found that problems with suppliers made it increasingly difficult to produce a quality product.

Pete
 
Emag/PMag

Mine should be here today or tomorrow. I ordered one of each for my ECI IO360. Still a little confused on the wiring but hopefully it will come with a decent set of instructions.

FYI, they have been great to work with and have contacted me with information on availability and shipping. I don't really see a down side to these units.

Darwin N. Barrie
P19
Tired of wiring!!!!
 
The only down sides of the P-mag/E-mag are the typical ones for a new company with a new product, relatively little accumulated flight hours and uncertain future support. From everything I've read, they have an excellent product and great support. Two key ingredients for success.
 
Wiring an Emag

The wiring is straight forward - instructions are provided. There are 4 wires, +12v power, ground, "p-lead", and tach (or tack). The power should be protected with a 5A c/b or fuse, it should be switched by the master switch otherwise the electronics in the mag will be working all the time and flatten the battery. I grounded mine to a vac pad blanking plate stud. The "p-lead" wire will stop sparks being produced when it is grounded, it does not switch off the mag. The tach pulse will drive your engine analyser and will keep pulsing even if the "p-lead" is grounded (useful for a mag check - don't have to switch mags feeding the tach). Read the instructions about spacing the HT leads.

Hope this helps, Pete
 
Good info. Thanks.

So an individual switch for the power lead isn't really needed? As long as it's switched by the master? And then have a switch for the p-lead just like for a mag.
 
That's right. My opinion is that the number of components between the battery/busbar and the emag should be minimized for reliability. I only have a c/b which is fed directly from the switched side of the master realy. If the master relay fails the mag (or pmag in a few weeks) keeps the engine going until I get on the ground. A "mag" switch is needed to tell the emag to stop producing sparks (for example during the run-up mag check) - it does not switch off the electronics. BTW turning the power off to the emag with the engine running is not recommended.

Pete
 
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P-mag Power Requirement

I am considering a Pmag for my project but have a question. Their info says the thing makes it's own juice, so in the event of an alternator/battery/contactor failure I'd be able to continue. If this is true, why does the unit require a power lead connection to the buss? Is this just to supply field current to get it going? If this is the case, has anybody out there actually pulled the power while running to make sure it really works?

Steve Zicree
RV4
 
I've watched my engine in the Mattituck Test cell running with two P-mags.

When we switched off the power from the alternator/battery, the engine never skipped a beat. It just kept on running from the self powered P-mag.

I'm told that once a certain rpm is reached the P-mag runs on its own generated power and the planes power is now the backup.
 
Hmmmm, I was just thinking about checklists and runups.

Would a prudent pilot then do TWO mag checks per side?

One for fouled plugs/inop alternate mag and another for power off operation?

One would need to wire each power lead to a switch. I understand this is adding a point of failure into which could be an otherwise bulletproof system.

Hmmmmmm, permanent magnets rarely "break" but the coils they induce can cook! It would be worthwhile to look at those during SOME kind of interval.

Maybe just a 100 hour/annual check is all that is needed?

Sorry, I try not to overthink things. What do you all think?

:confused: CJ
 
John,
Why not just do the check with the power to the Pags off? That way you check back up electric function and spark plugs, ignition leads, etc all in one check. You do need an active aircraft electrical system to get the engine started, so your check for the aircraft electric system/pmag integrity would be checked by the fact the engine started.
Good Luck,
Mahlon
"The opinions and information provided in this and all of my posts
are hopefully helpful to you. Please use the information provided responsibly and at you own risk."
 
mahlon_r said:
John,
Why not just do the check with the power to the Pags off?

Well, yes indeed!

What I am pondering is where to locate (if at all) the switch for the power lead.

If I make it independently switched, it becomes a possible point of failure.

If I put it on the main bus, I can't check it during runup without shedding the main. This resets the GPS, flight plan, radio programming and ummmm, stuff.

I suppose a PM check would be fine.

Thoughts?

:confused: CJ
 
For what it's worth, Bob Nuckolls the electrical system guru recommends you connect each P-Mag to the main battery bus through a three-position switch: OFF-ON-BAT.

With the switch in the OFF position, the the P-Mag is disconnected from aircraft power. Its orange "switch" lead is also grounded, which disables the ignition module even if the P-Mag's generator is turning.

With the switch in the ON position, the P-Mag is still disconnected from aircraft power, but it is allowed to self-power if the engine is already turning.

With the switch in the BAT, position, the P-Mag is connected to aircraft power and will draw current either from the aircraft's battery bus or from its internal generator, whichever is providing greater output.

So I guess you'd start up with both P-Mags on BAT, then make sure the engine will still run with #1 set to ON and #2 set to OFF, then again with #1 set to OFF and #2 set to ON. That will tell you that both P-Mags' generators are working before takeoff.

Yes each P-Mag has a single point of failure, but you still have what seems to me like an excellent amount of redundancy with a setup like this. (Use a good switch and change it out every X years if you really want to!)

Click here for Bob's recommended diagram.

mcb
 
Hmmmm, That sounds reasonable!

After looking at Bob's diagram and thinking it over... I like it!

One switch with 3 positions for each P-Mag.

Start engine on Bat, Taxi to runup area and...

Brakes set
Mixture full rich
RPM 1,800
Alt Air Check
Exercise Prop (check oil pressure)
Left P-Mag On, then Off (125 RPM max drop) return to Bat
Right P-Mag On, then Off (125 RPM max drop) return to Bat
Max. difference 50 RPM
Pitot on (check amps)
Engine to Idle, then 1,000 RPM
Controls free and correct
Lights, Camera, Action!

Good practices?

;) CJ
 
mburch said:
Yes each P-Mag has a single point of failure
Actually, I take that back. Each P-Mag has a single point of failure that might prevent it from starting the engine, but unless the switch fails shorted (which seems unlikely to me) then once the engine is running the P-Mags are on the case for good. Pretty cool setup.

I should add that, from looking over the archives of the AeroElectric email list, Nuckolls seems pretty bullish on the P-Mags. That alone is enough to make me seriously consider them, once I get to that stage.

mcb
RV-7, emp done, QB fuse/wings in two weeks
 
In order to be in trouble with a dual P-mag system, you would need the following to occur:
Alternator failure AND
Battery failure AND
Both P-mags fail

Seems unlikely. That's what I like about the P-mags. They are independent, self-contained and self-powered (above a certain RPM). Even if one gets completely fried for some reason, the other one should keep going.

I've been fairly conservative on my project, sticking with time-tested stuff. But the P-mags have too many advantages to pass up. Mine should be arriving soon, to be installed on my engine by Mattituck next month.

Dave
 
pmag, emag

I ended up with conventional mags. I prewired my RV-9A to support emag/pmags in future should I decide to upgrade.

The emagair products were not available due to development delays, and I needed my engine (Aero Sport/Superior O-320 A1AC2 - roller lifters). So, I decided that I'll let someone else be the guinea pig(s), while I use the old, proven technology.

I developed an electrical system design and reviewed it with emagair. They had some tips which were beneficial. Whatever electrical design you choose, have them give it the once-over.

I'm rooting for these guys. In a few years when my mags need rebuilding, I'll give them another look.

Vern Little RV-9A
 
Davepar said:
In order to be in trouble with a dual P-mag system, you would need the following to occur:
Alternator failure AND
Battery failure AND
Both P-mags fail

Seems unlikely. That's what I like about the P-mags. They are independent, self-contained and self-powered (above a certain RPM). Even if one gets completely fried for some reason, the other one should keep going...
What about a single E-mag/P-mag setup? I don't hear much about that.
It seems with this setup you would have to have two failures before you started gliding. The electrical system and the P-mag would both have to fail. Two failures is what traditional mags require before an engine stoppage.

With a duel P-mag setup you have triple redundancy because both P-mags would have to go down before you did. Is this over kill?

I ask because I'm thinking of using the E-mag/P-mag setup. Which, BTW, is what they recommend. This also makes me wonder if they will stop building the E-mag because most customers seem to be installing duel P-mags.

Thoughts?
 
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P-mag + E-mag should be perfectly fine. However, the difference in price between a P-mag and an E-mag is "only" $250. Heck, that's like $.50 in airplane-dollars (kind of like dog-years). The other choices for additional redundancy were more hassle (extra battery) or more dollars (like the very pricey B&C SD-8 back-up generator).
 
Davepar said:
Where's Bob's diagram for the switch? That sounds like a good idea.

The switch diagram is on the Z13/8 diagram.

Also Bill, most people are going dual P-Mags because the cost difference is negligible.

:cool: CJ
 
Emag/Pmag

With Brad's recommendation I went with one each. Piece of cake wiring. I'm about 2 weeks from firing up. I'll keep everyone posted.

BTW, these guys are great to deal with.

Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
 
Captain_John said:
Also Bill, most people are going dual P-Mags because the cost difference is negligible.CJ
CJ, you haven't figured out yet that I'm what my Father would call a "cheap SOB".

I thought the main reason was price because the safety margin seems slight.

Darwin, I look forward to hearing your flight reports. I hope to order mine before the end of the year as they told me to expect a price increase next year. :(
 
Emag/Pmag

Hi Bill,

I got one of each because there was just no need to have that redundancy there. I think we get too caught up on "backup" stuff. The technology is better than ever yet we back everything to extremes.

I saw a plane recently (RV) that had dual Cheltons, a Dynon, and still had a conventional AS, ALT and horizon. Just scratched my head.

Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
finishing up
 
RV7Guy said:
Hi Bill,

I got one of each because there was just no need to have that redundancy there. I think we get too caught up on "backup" stuff. The technology is better than ever yet we back everything to extremes.

I saw a plane recently (RV) that had dual Cheltons, a Dynon, and still had a conventional AS, ALT and horizon. Just scratched my head.

Darwin N. Barrie
Chandler AZ
finishing up
I couldn't agree with you more. On another thread I mentioned that a number of people looked at me like I was crazy because I will not have a backup for the Dynon EMS. Truth is, if that thing goes black and the engine continues to make noise, I THINK the engine will continue to run until I find a place to land. If the engine runs really strong right up to the point where it throws a rod, I THINK I will notice the vibration and the silence (and wife screaming, ok not so much silence) before I notice all the zero readings on the EMS.
 
If the engine drops below the P-mag alternator's RPM it will just drop off though won't it? I'd still stick to one mag one EI.
 
The RPM to keep the P-mag going is ~700. If the prop gets below that in the air and you have no alternator and no battery I doubt a mag will do you any good either.

Scott
 
I very happy with them

I installed a P-mag in my RV-6 to replace an old Slick. I noticed, that aside from the engine running perfectly, I am also saving about 1/2 a gallon of fuel an hour. I'm also using automotive spark plugs. I have been using this Emag product for about 150 hrs. 120 hrs for RV transition training and the rest for cruising. My P-mag, from Emag, is linked to the maniful pressure and when flying up at altitude the system adjusts the spark automatically. Truly amazing. In other words, I'm very Happy with the performace it has.

Alex De Dominicis
n727LV
 
As others have mentioned, the only drawback so far to these things is the delay in getting them. They can't seem to keep up with demand. I ordered mine back in July. Brad said mine are in the next production run. Hopefully they get here soon, as my engine is being built up next month.

Dave
 
i have emag pmag

already received mine but my project on hold or not going to happen as quick as expected. might sell what i have and get back in line for next avail... does that help anyone??
email me privately if so..not trying to make $$$ just don't want to lose either..
jeff
 
Thanks for the offer. I'm still keeping my fingers crossed that they'll show up in time. Even if the don't, Mattituck will build the engine installing mags temporarily. I can then install the P-mags when I get them. I'd just rather have Mattituck install and test run the engine with the P-mags.

BTW, somebody mentioned that there is a price increase in the works. Not surprising considering the demand there is for this product. If you sell yours, the replacements might be more expensive.
 
Only problem is that this won't work!

mburch said:
Click here for Bob's recommended diagram.

mcb

I was hooking up my pmag last weekend (after seeing this post) and got everything tested per this schematic and got all the right voltages for on/off/bat. Then I tried to time the pmag and figured out that with this switch setup it can't be done!

To time (and hand prop) the system you need the power on and the PLead grounded! I worked around it and got it timed but had some interesting words...

I emailed Bob and he said to look at Z-33 here:

>>Goto http://aeroelectric.com/whatsnew.html
>>
>>Click on Latest Appendix Z Diagrams
>>
>>Bob . . .

And there I found that to do it 'right' you need yet another switch to control what the PLead sees.

Everything is done now, but I really wonder if this is 'better' than having a breaker control +12 and an on/off switch to control the PLead. Is it that hard on breakers to 'test' them once per flight?

Chuck
 
Switchable breakers?

What's wrong with using switchable breakers for power and other switches for the "p-lead"?

Pete

PS I'm not sure that you really need to test the p-mag generator every flight on a 2 p-mag set up as the failure of one would not be a no-go item (you have just reverted to a p-mag, e-mag set up).
 
Can you turn it off

penguin said:
What's wrong with using switch able breakers for power and other switches for the "p-lead"?

Pete

PS I'm not sure that you really need to test the p-mag generator every flight on a 2 p-mag set up as the failure of one would not be a no-go item (you have just reverted to a p-mag, e-mag set up).
You are really testing the plugs as well. When you turn one ignition off traditionally you are testing that the other is working and the plugs are not fouled.

I guess with the P-mag, when you switch it off (Bat power) you are testing that the self-power works. I agree with that logic and point you make, but how do you turn it off? I am going to buy them, but have not made the purchase yet.

Can you turn it OFF? What if it starts to miss fire? This can cause the engine to lose power and shake like crazy. Turning the ignition off helps if it's malfunctioning. From the wire diagram I see there is a OFF position.

It makes sense to test the ignitions by turnig one off at a time, like you do with mags for at least a top/bottom plug test.

George
 
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chuck said:
To time (and hand prop) the system you need the power on and the PLead grounded! I worked around it and got it timed but had some interesting words...

Timing the mags is a one-time thing, right? Can't you just jumper the power leads around the switch? Unless you're planning on hand propping your plane.

Dave
 
gmcjetpilot said:
You are really testing the plugs as well. When you turn one ignition off traditionally you are testing that the other is working and the plugs are not fouled.

I guess with the P-mag, when you switch it off (Bat power) you are testing that the self-power works. I agree with that logic and point you make, but how do you turn it off? I am going to buy them, but have not made the purchase yet.

Can you turn it OFF? What if it starts to miss fire? This can cause the engine to lose power and shake like crazy. Turning the ignition off helps if it's malfunctioning. From the wire diagram I see there is a OFF position.

It makes sense to test the ignitions by turnig one off at a time, like you do with mags for at least a top/bottom plug test.

George

I think you're slightly missing the point. With a p-mag 2 switches are required, that do 2 different jobs. Also the "p-lead" does not do exactly what it does on a regular mag, it just stops the p-mag producing sparks, the electronics are still working. So agree that a "mag" check is required to ensure that both ignition systems are functioning properly.

However, a p-mag has its own generator that powers it most of the time. Ship's power is required for starting, but not much thereafter. So if the engine starts we know that ship's power is getting to at least one p-mag, if the run up is good we know that both are operating from ship's power or their own generators, but we don't know if the generators are working. Another 2 switches are required, on the power feed to both p-mags, to interrupt ship's power to check.

Bob Nuckolls doesn't really like circuit breakers, preferring fuses, so he has tried to come up with a system with the minimum number of switches (to remove potential failure points). Seems that for this application a pair of switched breakers might just be the best answer?

I would hesitate to wire the airplane so that it could not be hand-propped (or so that the timing was difficult to check at the annual) - hand propping has got me out of an awkward situation on more than one occasion.

Pete
 
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After looking at Bob's diagrams I don't see what all the fuss is. A switch for each mag that can be used to run it either with ship's power or without, and one extra switch for timing purposes seems straightforward enough. The extra switch could be replaced with an alligator clip lead, since it would only be needed during service. As for the hand propping issue, I can't imagine what circumstance would have me hand propping a plane with an electronic ignition (even if it is a p-mag).

Steve Zicree
 
No fuss really

szicree said:
After looking at Bob's diagrams I don't see what all the fuss is. A switch for each mag that can be used to run it either with ship's power or without, and one extra switch for timing purposes seems straightforward enough. The extra switch could be replaced with an alligator clip lead, since it would only be needed during service. As for the hand propping issue, I can't imagine what circumstance would have me hand propping a plane with an electronic ignition (even if it is a p-mag).
Steve Zicree

I hesitate to say there is a fuss but consider the two systems:

1) Aerolectric says:
3 position switch (off, on, bat)
2 postion switch (plead ground/float)
1 breaker.

2) PMag recommends:
1 2 Postion Switch Plead-on/off
1 Breaker 12V on/off

Both setups offer the same 4 options to the user. On/Off/Bat/Timing. The aerolectric option has almost twice as many connections and an extra switch. Why should I choose extra wires/switches? Is this done to save the breakers from a switch cycle on every flight?

Chuck
 
Just an update on lead times. They are currently at 5 months. I ordered my P-mags mid-July and they won't be shipped until next month. :(
 
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