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High value transactions

Hangar 1271

Well Known Member
For the first time, I have been stiffed on a purchase on VAF. Fortunately, it was a small amount. However, I am contemplating selling my Dynon Skyview D1000T on VAF and that would be a lot more money. So, what is the current recommendation for making sure the buyer and seller are protected for higher value transactions? Thanks for your input.
 
Use a broker. Not sure if Stein still does this or not but might be worth a shot to contact him.

As a seller, I don't ship until I get paid. I only take payment methods that are hard to impossible to reverse. If they insist on a check, I don't ship until the check clears. I document everything and in some cases won't ship without the package being insured. I always try to ID the buyer and try to find some common connection where I can verify who they are and if others are willing to vouch for them.

If at any point the buyer is not willing to accept my terms, I walk away from the deal.
 
As a seller, I don't ship until I get paid. I only take payment methods that are hard to impossible to reverse. If they insist on a check, I don't ship until the check clears. I document everything and in some cases won't ship without the package being insured. I always try to ID the buyer and try to find some common connection where I can verify who they are and if others are willing to vouch for them.

If at any point the buyer is not willing to accept my terms, I walk away from the deal.

unfortunately that is a one sided approach. How does a buyer protect himself from someone like you that cashes his check and doesn't send the product. Untrustworthy people can exist on either side of the transaction. If I were selling things I never intended to ship, your approach is the one I would select. Many believe most criminals are stupid and will show their hand. Unfortunately not always true.
 
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I recommend Zelle (owned by Chase, B of A, and some other major banks) if available to you and the buyer through your online banking portals. Payments are irreversible. https://www.zellepay.com/faq/can-i-cancel-payment#:~:text=Contact%20Us-,Can%20I%20cancel%20a%20payment%3F,select%20%E2%80%9CCancel%20This%20Payment.%E2%80%9D

If you don't have access to Zelle, I would recommend using Venmo, which is owned by PayPal. Anyone can sign up for free. If you have an account already set up when the buyer pays you, then the payment is irreversible. https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/235171088-Cancel-Payment

With both services you will get the funds immediately and there are no fees for you or for the payer.
 
unfortunately that is a one sided approach. How does a buyer protect himself from someone like you that cashes his check and doesn't send the product. Untrustworthy people can exist on either side of the transaction. If I were selling things I never intended to ship, your approach is the one I would select. Many believe most criminals are stupid and will show their hand. Unfortunately not always true.

Unfortunately the buyer is always at risk of losing money if they are required to send payment before the product ships, whether the seller waits to cash the check or not. In either case, a dishonest seller could just refuse to ship, or they could ship an empty box or a defective product, etc.

It's in the buyer's best interest to get the product before paying or to use a credit card, so they can dispute the charge for nonreceipt of a conforming product purchase. Though if I were the seller, I wouldn't allow either of those options because it's too easy to get burned, even with credit card payments which are routinely disputed without merit and still held against the seller.

I guess the only truly safe option is to meet in person and exchange cash for the product. Just make sure you do it in a public place so you avoid the possibility of getting robbed. ;)
 
use an escrow service. escrow.com is probably the biggest/easiest but there are tons of them out there (check your bank/investment firm). you'll be out $32.50/$1k through escrow.com.
 
I recommend Zelle (owned by Chase, B of A, and some other major banks) if available to you and the buyer through your online banking portals. Payments are irreversible. https://www.zellepay.com/faq/can-i-cancel-payment#:~:text=Contact%20Us-,Can%20I%20cancel%20a%20payment%3F,select%20%E2%80%9CCancel%20This%20Payment.%E2%80%9D

If you don't have access to Zelle, I would recommend using Venmo, which is owned by PayPal. Anyone can sign up for free. If you have an account already set up when the buyer pays you, then the payment is irreversible. https://help.venmo.com/hc/en-us/articles/235171088-Cancel-Payment

With both services you will get the funds immediately and there are no fees for you or for the payer.

It’s highly recommended you not have Zelle tied to your accounts. The fraud rate is very high and you have no protection if someone cleans out the account tied to Zelle. Congress is looking at forcing the banks to provide some protections since the banks created it.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/06/business/payments-fraud-zelle-banks.html
 
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unfortunately that is a one sided approach. How does a buyer protect himself from someone like you that cashes his check and doesn't send the product. Untrustworthy people can exist on either side of the transaction. If I were selling things I never intended to ship, your approach is the one I would select. Many believe most criminals are stupid and will show their hand. Unfortunately not always true.

If I am the seller I expect the buyer to do his own due diligence to protect themselves. It is almost impossible to eliminate all risk on both sides.

As a seller it’s my stuff, my rules or pass. Not many businesses out there that will ship you something without payment first.

As a buyer I am equally as cautious but I realize that some risk has to be assumed. I do everything I can to minimize that risk.
 
If I am the seller I expect the buyer to do his own due diligence to protect themselves. It is almost impossible to eliminate all risk on both sides.

As a seller it’s my stuff, my rules or pass. Not many businesses out there that will ship you something without payment first.

As a buyer I am equally as cautious but I realize that some risk has to be assumed. I do everything I can to minimize that risk.

Well said. Whether I am a buyer or a seller, I am under no obligation to make the other half of the party "feel comfortable". There is no requirement for this transaction to take place. If they don't like it, or I don't like it, it doesn't happen - even if there is no fault. Will it take longer to sell? Almost certainly. Do I really care? Not one bit.
 
Do the transaction in person? Also saves on shipping costs and risk of shipping damage. Of course it's unreasonable if the parties are too far apart geographically.
 
An assurance, not protection, is to deal with the long-established members here. Most of us have a reputation to protect.
 
An assurance, not protection, is to deal with the long-established members here. Most of us have a reputation to protect.

Accounts have been hacked in the past, so that may not offer as much protection as you would think. I'd venture that a motivated hacker could get all the passwords from this site in very little time.
 
I think it is helpful to actually talk to the other party. By doing so, you can sniff around a bit to see if they have the background knowledge to support their claim that they have what they are selling. You may find they have no clue about what they claim to represent.
I recently sold a large collection of aircraft tools on this site and had a very nice transaction. The buyer arranged the transportation of the heavy shipment. I tracked the shipment and provided daily updates to ease any worries. The carrier claimed to have delivered it, but it never arrived at the buyer's location which left us both in a bad position. He was familiar with the driver who ran that route and was able to pin him down on where he delivered the missing crate. (120 lbs...something he would remember...) The driver was able to backtrack then next day and recover the missing crate and deliver it correctly. Great teamwork on the transaction.
 
This Is The Way to Protect Both Buyer & Seller

use an escrow service. escrow.com is probably the biggest/easiest but there are tons of them out there (check your bank/investment firm). you'll be out $32.50/$1k through escrow.com.

I have used Escrow.com and recommend.

Merrill
 
If I am the seller I expect the buyer to do his own due diligence to protect themselves. It is almost impossible to eliminate all risk on both sides.

As a seller it’s my stuff, my rules or pass. Not many businesses out there that will ship you something without payment first.

As a buyer I am equally as cautious but I realize that some risk has to be assumed. I do everything I can to minimize that risk.

I share similar thoughts as Brian. I minimize my risks and fully understand that it increases the buyer’s risk. I’ve sold quite a few high price transactions over the years with zero issues. I sleep well because I know it’s not my intent to scam anyone. If the sale takes longer, so be it.

The other fact that I haven’t seen mentioned is that folks like Brian and myself, as well as many others, have a post or two on VAF. I hope that would convey some legitimacy and assist to confirm we aren’t scammers who usually don’t have many posts or a long history on the site.

Somebody mentioned Zelle earlier in the thread. One practice I do whether I’m a buyer or seller, is to always do a test transaction of $1 if it’s the first transaction with the individual. That guarantees the money is going to the correct person. This helps to eliminate the risk of sending money to some unknown person because a typo error. It doesn’t help if the recipient is a true scammer.
 
What is the max amount for Zelle? Would that work for selling an airplane? We are looking into wire transfers for that also. The transaction will be in person, and both of us have a long history on this site, and many phone conversations. Any suggestions to protect us both?
 
What is the max amount for Zelle? Would that work for selling an airplane? We are looking into wire transfers for that also. The transaction will be in person, and both of us have a long history on this site, and many phone conversations. Any suggestions to protect us both?

I think the limit is set by your bank and is probably not high enough for an entire plane. I think for large amounts it's best to do a wire. It only takes about 15 minutes to process if you use bigger banks.

Also, wires typically require a bit more oversight than Zelle (e.g., the receiving bank makes sure the account name matches the account number). With Zelle, if you type the email address incorrectly, then you could accidentally send money to a stranger and be out six figures.
 
What is the max amount for Zelle? Would that work for selling an airplane? We are looking into wire transfers for that also. The transaction will be in person, and both of us have a long history on this site, and many phone conversations. Any suggestions to protect us both?

The vehicle you use for the financial transaction doesn’t favor either party. As a seller, my preference is to have cash in hand before turning over an expensive asset.

When I sold my last aircraft, we did the transaction at a branch of the bank. He wired the money. When the banker advised the money arrive in my account, we executed the sales agreement, the branch notary witnessed the sale, and I handed him the keys.

Zelle limits are variable and are set by your bank. Even though I work for a bank, I don’t know what the limit criteria may be. I know my limits have been increased periodically. I used to use Zelle to move money between banks.
 
As has been mentioned, Zelle instant, scheduled, daily and monthly transaction limits vary by financial institution.

A simply Google search for Zelle limit + the name of your bank will get you to the information you need.

Here are the limits for some of the larger banks:

Zelle.jpg
 
Yeah, the Zelle limits are not adequate. I asked who he banks through, but it is not anything local here. Wire probably the way to go for a in person transaction.
 
So far in this discussion, the only really fair and reasonable approach that has been suggested is an escrow service.

Someone said, "most companies won't ship until they have the money" or something to that effect. I find that is not true at all. Many many companies I deal with will ship and enclose an invoice for payment. I've actually been impressed that companies are still willing to do that, but they do.

While I have always had clean transactions from VAF people, my impression from this forum is that there are more scam sellers than deadbeat buyers. So, sorry Brian and Bob, I'm not comfortable with your approach.
 
So far in this discussion, the only really fair and reasonable approach that has been suggested is an escrow service.

Someone said, "most companies won't ship until they have the money" or something to that effect. I find that is not true at all. Many many companies I deal with will ship and enclose an invoice for payment. I've actually been impressed that companies are still willing to do that, but they do.

While I have always had clean transactions from VAF people, my impression from this forum is that there are more scam sellers than deadbeat buyers. So, sorry Brian and Bob, I'm not comfortable with your approach.

Very seldom do I deal with any companies that will ship a product without payment first. I don’t think any shop will send you an 8k crank without you paying first.
 
So far in this discussion, the only really fair and reasonable approach that has been suggested is an escrow service.

Someone said, "most companies won't ship until they have the money" or something to that effect. I find that is not true at all. Many many companies I deal with will ship and enclose an invoice for payment. I've actually been impressed that companies are still willing to do that, but they do.

While I have always had clean transactions from VAF people, my impression from this forum is that there are more scam sellers than deadbeat buyers. So, sorry Brian and Bob, I'm not comfortable with your approach.

So your telling us you know of several companies that will ship a random individual high value products on nothing but an invoice without having an established credit account?
 
Phone a friend

Aviation is a small world. Why not have a friend that lives near the seller do the deal in person? Don’t know a friend in that city? One of your friends probably does. Ask on VAF if someone in X city would be willing to meet with the seller in person and verify the product is real and then transfer the money.

This would scare off most scammers trying to sell a product they don’t have.

Selling a product? Same thing in reverse. Have a friend meet with this person and verify they are real.

Or have a reputable shop do the transaction. Ex. Have the seller go to that shop and get them on the phone. When they say the seller is there and the product is real, wire the money.

Will this stop all scams? No. But it will cut the risk significantly.

If anyone need a friend in Houston, let me know. I can’t guarantee the quality but I can say I met the person and saw the product.
 
I have spoken with almost every buyer/seller I’ve dealt with on VAF. A couple have been fraudulent but it was pretty easy to tell. A couple have even refused to talk…. If I were buying/selling something really pricey I’d either escrow or FaceTime. I’ve done FaceTime where we both show identification with our pictures on it, then I look at GIS records to make sure the address is legit. I also search tail numbers if possible. A bit of a pain but so far, so good!

(Sidenote: May be worth a little piece of tape over DOB and License Number)
 
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