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Logging 0.1 hours

Ed_Wischmeyer

Well Known Member
Last night’s forecast for this morning was winds 6 knots, and at 10 AM, 12 knots, and getting gusty at 2 PM. With that in mind, the “plan” was to take off at 8 AM, fly 30 nm away to fly the LPV approach on autopilot, including the published missed approach – I’ve hardly ever flown a published miss on autopilot.

Forecast was still good this morning, so takeoff was pushed back to 9 AM. Driving to the airport, FSS reported winds at 3,000 were 31 knots. Oh… And I saw one plane flying sidewise on what would have been upwind. Uh, oh.

Plan B was that we’d do pattern work and I’d fly from the right seat, as I’d not done that in a while. Called the tower, traffic was light, they could accommodate us, so we saddled up. However, Clearance Delivery said that there was a fresh PIREP for moderate turbulence between 300 and 800. I’d never encountered that before, but it was an easy decision to taxi back to the hangar and log 0.1 for operating an aircraft for purpose of flight.

Twenty minutes later, the ATIS reported winds 18G20 vs forecast of 12. As my copilot said, “we live to get tossed around another day.”
 
Beg to differ.

14 CFR 1.1 Definitions says

Flight Time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing...
(Emphasis added)

You didn't have a landing, thus no flight no time. Or an infinite amount of flight time. :)
 
There's been all kinds of interpretations and this has been a discussion point over the decades. I don't know which way the FAA pendulum is swinging at the moment.

Actually, you can log absolutely anything! The sticking point is that logging time for currency, or for a license or rating... those things have lots of conditions, and those, too, have evolved over the decades.

So, yes, I can log it as flight time, but it might not count for anything other than as a reminder of interesting conditions.

Want more detail? https://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/regulations/logging-flight-time-on-the-ground/ has a great discussion, and references an FAA legal interpretation from 2004:
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...erps/2004/Kania_2004_Legal_Interpretation.pdf
That legal interpretation was, I think, written in response to a Part 121 question, but there's a case to be made that it applies to Part 91 operations, too. And in that sense, my 0.1 hours is loggable as flight time.

Years ago, a retired FAA attorney referred to the FARs as, "a monument to vagueness."

Some years ago, Jeppesen, I think, published a copy of the FARs annotated with all of the FAA interpretations. It's hiding on my bookshelf and I can't find it...
 
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Another badly written rule. The plain English interpretation is that you’re up to 10+ hours and still going up, as ‘the time began…’ but ‘it has never ended (still waiting for that landing!)
 
"Flight Time means:

(1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under its own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing."


I can twist this up so badly that it could mean anything.

-taxi out time doesn't count because it's only positioning before getting to the "for purpose of flight" portion. This means time starts on the takeoff roll because that' the first movement that is intentionally for the purpose of flight.

- taxi out time does count, because it' s the first movement for the "purpose of flight."

-taxi out to a rolling takeoff i.e. a soft field takeoff results in the whole thing is part of one movement under it's own power "for the purpose of flight," but a position and hold clearance results in the taxi not counting, because the taxi was just to get into position where the second movement under it's own power was "for the purpose of flight."

-high speed taxi texts for a new airplane count because they are done so you can certify an new design, therefore "for the purpose of flight"

-time starts when you taxi from the hangar to the fuel pumps because getting fuel is an essential part of the flight and the part of the "purpose"

- Time stops when you hit the runway because the aircraft came to rest after being in the air and the landing rollout isn't for the purpose of flight

- time doesn't stop until you're in the tiedowns because the landing roll and taxi is still part of the flight and when is the airplane actually at rest anyway?

-taxi doesn't count, but on the takeoff roll you hit a kangaroo on the runway and abort the takeoff thereby logging .001 hours of flight time.

Feel free to pick whichever one you like :)

Bottom line; unless you are using the logged time for the purposes of currency or in pursuit of a certificate or rating the FAA couldn't care less what you log.
 
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Day job

We log Block (taxi + flight) in our logbooks. That's what duty time is based on per the 135 regs. I'm not sure about Part 91 though. The aircraft time is only Flight time of course.

OOOI (Out, Off, On, In)

You could certainly get violated while taxiing around. Might as well get credit for it. Your intention was to go fly so it seems to meet the intent.
 
Worth It?

I have to ask:

Is the 0.1 hours even worth the potential trouble should you ever find yourself in the position of having your log book scrutinized?

Skylor
 
I have to ask:
Is the 0.1 hours even worth the potential trouble should you ever find yourself in the position of having your log book scrutinized?

What potential trouble? As long as I have appropriate requirements logged for currency, that's all that matters. Or similarly, if I was seeking a rating or license.

I've never heard of a logbook being examined to demonstrate currency, but I bet it's happened after accidents or violations.

And for many licenses and endorsements, there's no requirement to carry your logbook.
 
I have to ask:
Is the 0.1 hours even worth the potential trouble should you ever find yourself in the position of having your log book scrutinized?
Skylor

I can point out one instance where 0.1 hr. might make a difference. Back in another life when I went to take my Private Pilot check ride, the DPE, while overlooking my logbook, asked "How many hours do you need for Private Pilot?" My answer, of course was "40!" He then asked, "How many hours do you have?" My answer was, "40!". He told me that there had been a mistake in my logbook and that I did not have 40 hours. He then asked, "Did you log your time coming over here this morning?" Me-"No." DPE-"How long did the trip take?" Me-"How much do I need?" DPE-"0.3 hours!" Me-"That's what it took!" DPE-"Thats what I thought."

After that, all was good!
 
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Bottom line; unless you are using the logged time for the purposes of currency or in pursuit of a certificate or rating the FAA couldn't care less what you log.

Does the FAA use time for any currency requirements? I can't think of any. All that apply to me seem to be related to quantities of activity vs time. I guess you may be counting a BFR as currency. Maybe all the type rating stuff is different; I don't have exposure to that.
 
I've never heard of a logbook being examined to demonstrate currency, but I bet it's happened after accidents or violations.

.

Had a buddy that got a "courtesy" ramp check from an FAA guy wandering around the airport. He asked the pilot if he was instrument rated and if so, current. Pilot says yes. FAA says when and which plane. Pilot give the date he did his 6 approaches. FAA guy pulls out computer and goes to a website that shows pilots track log on that flight. Lucky for my buddy, he didn't fudge anything. He said he often doesn't do the hold, but happened to do so that day. FAA guys says have a nice day.

While not often seen, big brother is out there, so use caution when technology can be used to challenge your particular interpretation of the regs.
 
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Does the FAA use time for any currency requirements? I can't think of any. All that apply to me seem to be related to quantities of activity vs time. I guess you may be counting a BFR as currency. Maybe all the type rating stuff is different; I don't have exposure to that.

I guess when I said that I was thinking more along the lines of time required for ratings i.e. 3 Hours at night for a private, or 50 hours of x/c for an instruments rating or whatever.

When you put it that way, the only one I can really think of is that if I'm not mistaken theres a hourly requirement for maintaining instrument currency in a sailplane.

This is really getting down in the weeds from the original post. sorry.
 
In the grand scheme of things, this particular 0.1h isn't one in a string that this pilot logs every day. It's a particular 0.1 where the pilot exercised good decision making and aborted a flight for safety reasons. Sounds like a thing pilots should be rewarded for, not penalized. 0.1 isn't going to affect anyone's totals in any meaningful way(*).

(*) and I say that having finished my flight test and shut down with 44.9 hours total in my logbook, when the requirement for a PPL at the time was 45 hours. Didn't realize until I totalled it up back at the school, had to go for another flight as student before I could get my license...
 
Had a buddy that got a "courtesy" ramp check from an FAA guy wandering around the airport. He asked the pilot if he was instrument rated and if so, current. Pilot says yes. FAA says when and which plane. Pilot give the date he did his 6 approaches. FAA guy pulls out computer and goes to a website that shows pilots track log on that flight. Lucky for my buddy, he didn't fudge anything. He said he often doesn't do the hold, but happened to do so that day. FAA guys says have a nice day.

While not often seen, big brother is out there, so use caution when technology can be used to challenge your particular interpretation of the regs.

I feel like theres more to this story. Unless the guy was literally getting out of an airplane after an IFR flight, this seems like a random kind of question to ask.

Also, those 6 approaches and holding don't all have to be done on the same day. it's more of a cumulative thing than that. But even if I was in that situation where I did all the requirements in one flight, I don't think I would be able to provide the exact date and N number of the aircraft I did it in until I looked at my logbook, which is at home in my sock drawer :)
 
Flight Time:

Military is airborne time.

Airline is Prk Brk Release/Pushback to Prk Brk set in gate (Inclds Taxi, holding short of gate waiting for it to open...)

Private/Part 91 Engine running? *

* You made more pilot decisions and did almost as much pilot stuff in 0.1 hours than 1.0 of boring holes in the sky on a sunny day. Obviously no To/Lndg logged. Do the Regs says for purpose of flight? I had to move a jet in Denver from Ramp to a Maintenance hanger I swear was in another state. It took +20 min due to the distance and having to hold short of active runways. There was full pilot stuff and communications and we know ground Ops requires full attention. I logged it. I suppose if you taxi in your RV to / from hanger and fuel pumps / wash rack, no I would not log it.

Renting Plane, "Runaway Hobbs Meter Emergency Procedure: Immediately Mixture to Cutoff, Master to Off, exit aircraft and run a way..... Ha ha.
 
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I had to move a jet in Denver from Ramp to a Maintenance hanger I swear was in another state. It took +20 min due to the distance and having to hold short of active runways. There was full pilot stuff and communications and we know ground Ops requires full attention. I logged it.

I guess the meaning of "for the purpose of flight" is getting pretty squishy around these parts.
 
Flight Time:

* You made more pilot decisions and did almost as much pilot stuff in 0.1 hours than 1.0 of boring holes in the sky on a sunny day. Obviously no To/Lndg logged. Do the Regs say for purpose of flight?

Yes they do! "FAR §1.1 Flight time means: (1) Pilot time that commences when an aircraft moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight and ends when the aircraft comes to rest after landing."
 
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