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Ask a controller... (in memory of Tony Kelly - tkatc)

So I was wondering...what does it mean when a controller gives you the altimeter at some arbitrary time, other than when checking in with a new sector, which is the norm? Or let's say it happens shortly after you just realized you are a 'bit' high/low. My guess it's a polite, non-incriminating way to say, 'get back on altitude'. True? TIA, -Jim
Maybe, but usually it means they just got updated weather.
 
:) I like this little forum I got going here. Now I usually sit back and watch somebody else answer the questions for me. \

I appreciate opinions and answers from other controllers, so thanks in advance. I am sure I won't agree on some of the answers you give nor would you mine but in general terms I think we would all agree. Many of the questions are "area" specific which I may lack knowledge so it's nice to be able to collaborate with others on those subjects.

The latest 2 subjects have been answered to my satisfaction. ie Crossing restrictions are basically PD unless you hear some other accompanying instruction. "Descend to 9000 then cross ABC at 5000" (This would mean go to 9 now and I don't care what altitude you are between 9 and 5 so long as you cross ABC at 5)

As for the arbitrary altimeter...yes sometimes its weather....and yes, sometimes it's a polite reminder.
 
Good thread

:) I like this little forum I got going here. Now I usually sit back and watch somebody else answer the questions for me.
Got a little Huck Finn going on here :cool:
I like it too! When I answer, it's what I've told students who have asked basically the same thing, so it's a good way to confirm my answer (or not :eek:)
 
Fly Heading 090

Question: When is ATC going to transition away from the language "Fly heading 090" to "Fly track 090"?

Isn't this what ATC is really after anyway? I always thought that when ATC gives you a heading, they REALLY want you to follow a track, but 25 years ago, the technology didn't exist to allow many pilots to do this. Hence additional ATC guidance like "Turn left 10 degrees" to get you on the TRACK that they want you on for separation if there are winds which make for a difference between track and heading. Obviously, ATC is not doing wind correction calculations on the fly for each aircraft.

It seems that nowadays, most aircraft can easily accept a clearance or instruction to "Fly track 090", and the few that can't, could fly the assigned heading and then get additional "turn left 10 degrees" instructions when necessary for correction.

Wouldn't this result in a simpler, more direct, and efficient ATC system? Are there other pitfalls? Is this on the horizon at all?
 
Fly "true" track

Question: When is ATC going to transition away from the language "Fly heading 090" to "Fly track 090"?

It seems that nowadays, most aircraft can easily accept a clearance or instruction to "Fly track 090", and the few that can't, could fly the assigned heading and then get additional "turn left 10 degrees" instructions when necessary for correction.

Wouldn't this result in a simpler, more direct, and efficient ATC system? Are there other pitfalls? Is this on the horizon at all?

If we're going fly track headings, how about using true North for reference. Then we can get rid of all those pesky magnetic variation calculations. :rolleyes:
 
Controllers don't want you to track anything...unless its an IFR approach or route. I think TRACK 090 would be so much more complicated. The controller would have to know which aircraft could or couldn't perform such an operation. Every VFR pilot would then have to give type AND equipment suffix so the controller would know which one to issue. It would tie up more frequency as well not to mention if the equipment failed etc etc. The compass is tried and true over hundreds if not thousands of years.

As it sits now...the controller is VERY aware of what the winds will do with his/her vector. It is simple magnetic instruction. Easy to issue, easy to follow. If I want an aicraft to fly due south and I have a hefty west wind, I might issue a heading of 200 vs 180

Vectors are very different from "cleared direct". When a vector is issued we know wind will play a part. When "cleared direct ABC" is issued...we are essentially instructing the pilot to "track" in a certain direction.

And finally....controllers don't like change!!!
 
well put.

tk nice job explaining this one. The wind plays such a vital part in our everyday work. It can be your friend or at worse enemy, just like flying. One thing we should be talking about here is the pilot controller fam program. After sep 11, we were no longer able to fly in the cockpit of air carriers. With a large portion of the workforce able to retire soon, the faa needs to bring this program back so controllers know more about crm and pilot workload flights. Sorry to vent but I train many controllers at ZMA and I think if this program was back in service, more controllers would be more aware of what pilots can and can not do.... I apologize for the venting but for such an important job, we need, faa, aware. I have heard that they are bringing this back, but as usual, this has taken too many years...

TK, thanks for your work here and your efforts are valiant.

BC.
 
I'll give you a ride in a 6

tkatc, been reading the posts here and enjoying it. I live and fly on Long Island. Where are you in NJ. I love giving rides. I'm flying a 6 out of Spadaro's 1N2.
 
RFazio,

I am in southern NJ and fly out of 17N. If you are serious about a ride then let's make it happen. I read over your web site briefly and I know I could learn a lot from you.

You might have figured out that I am in the market for an RV. Came close on a few occasions but still looking. I would be more comfortable with an "A" model because I have never flown a tailwheel and it scares me a bit. But if I open my search up to tailwheels it gives me more options.

My little thread has fizzled out a bit. Maybe it's because there is less flying in the winter and thus less questions arising. Either way...I'm always looking to learn and/or teach.
 
Email me directly

Email me and we can talk easier. My email is [email protected]

Sure I'm serious. I gave a ride today to a stranger who walked up and was curious about the plane. He was a pilot at my airport.

Richard Fazio
 
Somebody send me this question via email and I thought I would answer it here.

saw a thread on the Van's Forum and thought I would ask a question:

I know each transponder has I believe what is called an S-Code? Can you trace a transponder back to an individual airplane with no other information other than what you see on the radar? Also, I fly from an airport under the outer layer of class C. How closely do you pay attention to those type of airplanes like mine that are going from their aiport away from the Class C airport. for example, I am to stay below 2300MSL until out of the Class C, but I am actually at 2500.


I am not very familiar with an s-code... I think you are referring to transponder types. All I really know about that is mode c and mode s transponders are capable of transmitting altitude. i.e. "Squawk altitude" is what we say when we want you to turn your mode c or s ON. As in, you flip your transponder button to ALT.

Transponders are considered "secondary radar". I can see your target on my scope with or without a transponder but the transponder allows a certain code (1200, 7700, 7600 or any assigned code), usually with altitude to be interigated by my radar equipment. This allows me to see your altitude and squawk code, ie 1200

As far as airpace violators, I see them on occasion. If they interfere with my operation I will certainly track that target and find out who they are. Sometimes I will see them approaching a local airport to land, I will have someone at the airport give me the tail number and track you down. Most times, if it isn't that bad, then all we want to do is talk to you via phone. We explain what we saw and how it could be dangerous and urge you to be more cognisent of what you are doing. In the worse cases we will pass on the info to FSDO and let them handle it.

In your example, a couple hundred feet will get my attention and we will complain about it to other controllers in the room but if they didn't interfere with my operation I usually don't do anything unless it becomes habitual.

As far as some sort of equipment to identify your plane squawking 1200....no. You are just another VFR aircraft and we don't/won't know who you are. BUT...if you have a major violation, we will track you, even up to hundreds of miles away We may even scramble fighter jets to intercept you depending upon the severity. For example, if you want to see fighter jets up close...penetrate the prohibited area (P40) over Camp David. You will QUICKLY get an escort!!
 
Briefly read up on mode s. It does seem to give ATC personalized info about the aircraft but there are very few ATC radar sites in existence. They predict the future will see more of this but the majority of ATC sites do not use this info.
 
I know of Garmin 330 which is a mode S transponder that has a configurable area for the tail number and if you have put your tail number in the configuration, then they will see that. I know of at least one person that has elected of not putting his tail number in his 330.
 
recommended equipment

this is less of a procedural question but since you brought up the thread, I want to take advantage ...

For a new builder or someone planning a panel upgrade, are their equipment recommendations you, as a controller, would want to see more pilots have on board and for me, the pilot, will make my experience and interactions better ?

BTW, I wanted to say "thanks" to you and the other controllers contributing to this thread. I was doing an internet search to cross reference a question recently and found a forums of/by/for controllers and most of those posts were bashing pilots. I really appreciate this open dialog !
 
over flying C and D airports

When overflying a Class C or Class D airport with an operational tower and flying above the ceiling of the airport, what are the required radio communications / What are the preferred (aka best practices) radio communications -before, over, and departing ?

I ask, because I thought I knew but was scolded once ?
 
I haven't forgotten about your question. I will reply soon but I am super busy trying to buy an RV!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
RV buying IS hectic but I think I have got it under control right now....I may be the proud new owner real soon .


Now, back to your question, I suppose the number 1 thing a controller would want you to have is a good sounding radio. Second, a good transponder. Those are the things a controller uses to provide service to the flying public. We don't care if you have glass or steam, FI or Carb, leather or cloth. It just is unseen to the controller. GPS capability is nice so we can give you shortcuts.

As far as communications go....if you are OVER the airspace, meaning ABOVE the vertical limits, then no communications are required. As far as flying through these spaces then a C or D only requires 2-way radio comm. A Bravo requires a specific "clearance" to enter.

The simplest way to explain what a controller wants to hear on initial contact is "Where and What". Where are you, including altitude, and what do you want. ie. Approach, Exp123 is 5 north of Podunk, 3500, request advisories to BFE.
 
over flying C and D airports - thanks

Thanks. I deliberately left out "B" knowing you are non-gratis until the "Cleared to enter". As I noted, I was "book sure" I know the comms requirements when flying above the C or D airport airspace but I received a "chastising radio call" from the airport/tower on one occasion when a younger pilot. Now I just always make the call.

Also thanks for the advice on good equipment. I've flown more than one rental that had marginal radios or transponder. I'll probably do more regular radio checks at my local airport to stay ahead of any degradation in comms quality.
 
TRSA

The ceiling of a class D control zone surrounding an airport is marked on a sectional chart in blue. What might not be so obvious is a Terminal Radar Service Area (TRSA) marked in black surrounding some class D airport control zones. In my area for instance, MBS has control zone ceiling of 3200 feet indicated in blue on the sectional chart. Surrounding that is a TRSA marked in black on the chart with a ceiling of 10,000. Some areas of charts might be cluttered with too much information. If you are looking for a particular color on the chart, you might overlook important information in another color. While it is not mandatory for VFR pilots to be in radio contact with TRSA controllers, it is recommended. It is possible for a novice pilot to be scolded for not communicating while in a TRSA.
Joe
 
Class B Clearance

Regarding Class Bravo clearances, I got the most casual clearance I've ever heard while flying around the LAX Class B the other day.

I was VFR at 2,000 flying from Chino to Santa Monica, a short 20 min flight in my 172 (still dreaming about that RV). I was abeam downtown and started a turn to the north to avoid the 2,000' ceiling of the Class B ahead. As I'm initiating the turn this is what I heard from the controller:

"It's ok 96Hotel, you can enter the Class Bravo, no need to turn north. Proceed direct to Santa Monica."

Now having it pounded into my brain that you are not cleared to enter the Class Bravo without hearing those magic words "You are cleared to enter Class Bravo" I was a tiny bit apprehensive. I debated for a moment what I should do...should I request clarification? Should I avoid the Bravo anyway? Should I follow the instruction and proceed direct? In the end I read back "96H cleared to enter class Bravo, direct Santa Monica". Never heard anything about it.

I thought it was amusing the informality with which that clearance was given...he almost sounded like an older sibling helping out his little brother. It was a beautiful evening to be flying.
 
How to contact a tower by phone

Last night, my wife and I flew into Saginaw (MBS) to have dinner with our daughter.
On short final the tower controller warned me that he didn't see my gear down. That thew me for a loop for a few seconds :eek:
I don't recall exactly what I said but it was basically "it would be tough for it not to be down". Not the most elegent of responses, but I was trying to think if something could be wrong, and that was what popped into my mind. My gear fairings are all white, and the sky was white with high clouds, and in a nose down attitude for landing I figured (hoped) that the gear was simply not very visible from the tower.
After I landed, I mentioned that RV's are fixed gear, and he said that's good to know.

But what I never did was thank him for being observant and speaking up when he thought something was amis!! A huge oversight on my part.
I was thinking about it this morning and decided I'd call the tower by phone today and correct that. However the AFD only has the AWOS phone number - nothing for the tower. So is there somewhere else I can look, or is there another way to contact that facility?
 
Control tower phone numbers are un-listed, but usually not too difficult to find. The local FSDO probably has it. They may not give it out, but maybe they will give the tower a message and have them call you.
 
I was "book sure" I know the comms requirements when flying above the C or D airport airspace but I received a "chastising radio call" from the airport/tower on one occasion when a younger pilot. Now I just always make the call.

Are you saying they scolded you for not contacting them when you were not in their airspace, and that because of that you now always contact them even when not in their airspace and not planning on entering it?

Doesnt make any sense to me. If you are flying VFR, not using flight following, not in their airspace, and not planning on entering their airspace, I dont think they have any expectation of contact from you. Furthermore, I would think that they dont want you to contact them unless you have a specific request. No?

erich
 
Congrats and thanks, Tony

RV buying IS hectic but I think I have got it under control right now....I may be the proud new owner real soon .

Congrats on the plane, Tony. She's a beauty! I haven't asked you any questions on this thread, but I've learned much from all your answers. Please promise you'll keep the thread alive for a long time instead of spending all your time with your new toy.

--Stephen
 
Anybody else, besides me, uncomfortable over flying class C without communications? Even with good Radar and transponders, the prospect of sharing some sky with an F-16 in afterburner makes me a kinda tense.
 
Humpty,
Sounds like perhaps you WERE in the Class C airspace. Perhaps you were not but a statement like that sure sounds like he was insinuating something. I doubt we'll ever know but if you were "green" I suppose it was possible.

Anyway, it sounds like you have it all figured out now anyway.

fatherson,
My stomach is in knots (no pun) about such a large purchase that I have dreamed about for years. I learn a lot from the forums but I am entering into the unknown. I'll be much happier when she's home safe in her new home. :D:D:D
 
How about a tower tour

One more thing guys...this is NOT an official FAA approved forum so the advice you get here, while true to the best of my knowledge or opinion, should not be thought of as gospel. Please take it with a grain of salt. It is worth exactly what you paid for it. NOTHING!! : )

Ah Spoken Like a Well Trained Official. I should Know I to work for the 44 Pres. Keep up the good work.
FSDO-11
 
I am glad you brought that up Newco!! I do not want anyone thinking this thread is official in any capacity. It is EXPERIMENTAL!!!:)
 
question for Controller

I had an event that happened to me and would like your comments. I was flying from Santa Ynez, CA to Hawthorne (CA). There was a brush fire pushing smoke south over the Santa Monica mountains. I was in contact flight following. I was in the smoke scooting under the LA Class B over Malibu. The contoller asked me if I was still VFR. I told him I was in the smoke and I had at least 1 mile Vis, and could see the ground, but had no horizon. Immediately the controller replied back that I had permission to entire class B at my discretion, just inform him of any altitude changes or course changes. I cannot figure out why he cleared me into Class B, without a request from me, immediately after I stated I had no horizon? To me it was like any other hazy day in LA, so much crude (smog) there is no horizon, but we fly anyways. Did my statement, "no horizon" send up a red flag??
Thanks for your insight.
 
I think your 1 mile vis was more of a red flag than no horizon. At controlled airports, the VFR minimum is 3 miles vis and 1000' ceiling. Most controllers think this is the VFR minimum EVERYWHERE! So I assume he was just allowing you room to operate before you got yourself into trouble.
 
Isn't VFR minimum effectively 3 miles everywhere (except the super boonies) once you are more than 700' AGL?

The top of Class G under a Class B seems to be 700' everywhere I look. Minimum flight visibility for VFR is 3 miles everywhere except Class G. It seems to me you told the controller you were in IMC unless you were less than 700' high.
 
vis

So if I remember right, Hawthorne used to be approved for special VFR approaches with vis at 1 mile. If you every flown in the LA Basin, when they report 3 mile vis, it can be less than 1 mile at altitude when you just descend into the smog through the inversion layer. I went into Hawthorne many times under the SVFR waiver back in the 90's. Not sure if they allow SVFR approaches anymore. thanks for the feedback.
 
Considering there may or may not be a migration to NextGen by the time I'm flying (2013), I'm thinking about obsolescence in what I am designing. I am a IFR pilot in the Pacific NW (Oregon) and do a fair amount of IMC every year. I am already forgoing a Marker Beacon and ADF, but am not also thinking of forgoing NAV/VOR/ILS as well. Since I will have GPS WAAS and can shoot RNAV LPV approaches, I'm not sure if there is a need to build in support for these systems.

Now, occasionally I do land at busier airports (SJC, BFI, PDX) that typical sequence IFR traffic via ILS approaches, I'm wondering how much of a distruption or flack I would get by "negative ILS, requesting GPS" to the approach controller.

Any thoughts?
 
here's a question, you're lost comms, you're at 6000ft, and you're doing an approach

approach altitude is 3000ft at the IAF


let's use ILS8 @ KFTY for example, where there are no stepdowns or PT's, when can/should you descend to 3000ft if your ETA is still 30mins out? should you hold at FLANC for 20mins and then start a descend in the hold (this seems really dangerous) or should you just descend to 3000FT the minute you are on published portion of chart?


I figure if you're lost comms, squawking 7600 and stuck in IMC, the controller will clear all the other airspace and your descending will not be/cause an issue

The other question I have, is if you ARE lost comms, what is the required seperation that controllers will grant you? is traffic still only 3 miles/1000ft away?
 
You are basically flying the full procedure - whether there is lost comms or not. Prior to the approach, there are some factors.

Were you last assigned to 6000 before lost comms? If so, that is your expected altitude until you are flying the approach.

If you climbed to 6000 due to a MEA AFTER you lost comms, the expectation is that you would decend to stay at your previous assigned/filed altitude as long as it is at least MEA

Now, the expectation for the approach. If you look at the profile view of the approach. It depends on which way you are coming. If you are coming from the west you can fly straight in. If you are flying from the North, East, or South, you will want to fly a reversal.

If you are straight in, you can see that you can descend to 5000 when heading out from RICCA and once established on the localizer you can descend to 3000 at FLANC.

If you are having to do the reveral, you need to stay at altitude until you reach FLANC and establish yourself on the outbound reversal leg. At that point you can descend to 3000.
 
http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/ATpubs/AIM/Chap6/aim0604.html

The above link describes lost comm better than I could. However, in my experience, I have never seen nor heard of a full comm out IFR aircraft. Many times I have seen partial failure where the aircraft can still hear ATC. I know this because I can request the aircraft to IDENT to acknowledge. If you are recieving ATC instructions and complying then essentially it is not a lost comm situation. You are merely following instructions without replying in the normal manner. If there is a true lost comm event....follow the above guidance and rest assured that ATC will be clearing your path and trying to anticipate your next move.

As far as what equipment you should or shouldn't invest in...well, if ANYONE knew the answer to that I would think he would be a very rich man. As to ILS vs GPS, I don't think you would interupt traffic flow into the busier airports. At my airport, and i am guessing most others, the ILS and GPS course are the same so I don't really care which approach you are flying.
 
First contact with another controller in route.

This question might have been asked and I missed it if that is the case my apologies.

It is more of a in route question. First contact with a tower seems clear to me.

My fist contact with ATC ( SoCal usally) I use "Experimental N64gh" (my understanding of the AIM that is the correct procedure). With my next call (after they talk to me) I say "64GH is a RV6 ...". If I do not clarify they usually ask. Then I just use "RV 64GH". My question is when they hand me off to the next guy/gal (flight following for example) do I just say "RV 64GH" (what I usually do) or start with "Experimental" again?

Only had one minor problem when dropping the "Experimental". I was handed off and like I usually do I just used "RV 64GH" with my first call to the next controller. He came back with "O so you are not an Experimental any more?". Hard to tell if he was mad, kidding or what because for the rest of the time I was with him he was real helpful. That was a couple years ago. However after that I sometimes wonder what is correct.

A side note for some reason RV and 64GH do not go together to well. Almost every flight with flight following at some point there is confusion as what the heck I am. At that point I usually go go back to "Experimental 64GH is a RV6". I might have just answered my own question. Any way what do the controller say?
 
The "EXPERIMENTAL" statement is only required when landing at or departing an airport with an operational control tower. And then only on the initial call-up.
It is NOT required for en-route communications.
 
So taking that one step further, if on IFR or Flight Following and HANDED off to the landing airport, is experimental still needed in the call sign initially since there was a controller hand off?
 
FSS and ATC know about RVs

RV is an official aircraft type designator, so I just use that (no experimental) and have never had a problem, either while IFR or at a controlled airport.
 
I am not certain of any requirement to identify yourself as an experimental. There are no specific rules concerning experimentals for the controller so I dont find it particularly useful. But I DO know how any plane should make initial and subsequent calls. Either state "type" or "November" but NOT both. Skyhawk12345 or November 12345 works. Since Cessna has names for the specific models like skyhawk or skylane that is helpful but RVs do not so "experimental" is sufficient, ie November 101RV or experimental 101RV.

You'd be surprised at how many controllers do not know the difference between many types of aircraft. The controller is more concerned about wether you are a single, twin, or jet. They also care about weight class. Other than that they rarely care what type experimental you are unless they are the enthusiast/pilot type and then they only want to know out of personal curiosity.
 
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And sometimes....

....have asked me if the "little" wheel was in the front or back!:) when I had my -6A...Really!

Thanks,
 
Mel is right. Check your limitations. Mine says that I have to notify control towers that I am experimental. It also says that if I file IFR I have to also put a notification in the remarks section of the flight plan.

Dan
 
Ok...I did some research. Yes, you have to identify yourself as experimental to operating control towers. Period.

Now, my view, I am responsible for the safe and expeditious flow of air traffic. Why I need to know it is experimental is beyond me. I take no other precautions as a result. If I am unsure of your weight class and the situation calls for increased wake turbulence separation, I will simply err on the side of caution. There are no special rules I have to abide by because the aircraft is experimental.
 
Ok...I did some research. Yes, you have to identify yourself as experimental to operating control towers. Period.

Now, my view, I am responsible for the safe and expeditious flow of air traffic..........There are no special rules I have to abide by because the aircraft is experimental.

Per this quote from the ATC Handbook, 7110.65, you are authorized to provide special handling if required due to the experimental nature of some aircraft. Granted, RVs are like production aircraft and normal ops do not require special handling.

9-2-4. EXPERIMENTAL AIRCRAFT OPERATIONS

a. When notified that an experimental aircraft requires special handling:

NOTE-
14 CFR Section 91.319(d)(3) requires that each person operating an aircraft with an experimental certificate shall notify the control tower of the experimental nature of the aircraft when operating into or out of airports with operating control towers.

1. Clear the aircraft according to pilot requests as traffic permits and if not contrary to ATC procedures.

2. Once approved, do not ask the pilot to deviate from a planned action except to preclude an emergency situation.

b. At locations where volume or complexity of experimental aircraft operations warrant, a letter of agreement may be consummated between the facility and operator.
 
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