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Ask a controller... (in memory of Tony Kelly - tkatc)

no tfr for drones

Gil, TK,

At ZMA we work drones, no TFR required, some at very high altitudes and some quite low. Most we talk to and yes they have transponders. We do have some that activate warning areas but not always.

Hope that helps...TK I worked the predators a long time ago and let me tell you how much fun it is running a par on a MQ9.
 
Gil, TK,

At ZMA we work drones, no TFR required, some at very high altitudes and some quite low. Most we talk to and yes they have transponders. We do have some that activate warning areas but not always.

Hope that helps...TK I worked the predators a long time ago and let me tell you how much fun it is running a par on a MQ9.

Do you know how they do collision avoidance for non-flight following VFR aircraft?

Do the drones have active radar that can sense other aircaft in their path?
 
Do you know how they do collision avoidance for non-flight following VFR aircraft?

Do the drones have active radar that can sense other aircaft in their path?

Just like any other aircraft. They are issued traffic and the drone can look for it if they have cameras advanced enough or the controller can give them a vector. I would say that drones COULD have the capabilty (ADS-B or TCAS) but I would assume more of them DO NOT have that equipment. They are ALWAYS working with a controller in the US so that equipment may be redundant to the advisories/vectors offered by a controller.
 
zbv

We have a Drone who does not talk to ATC, but we can get a hold of them, I hope they monitor Guard, I've issued many, many traffic alerts to aircraft into KFLL, KOPF, and KFXE. It seems this particular drone is doing intercept training, really pisses me off on the mid. After issuing 4 traffic alerts, I called for the aircraft on Guard and next thing I notice, the aircraft is returning back into approach. I heard that some drones doing this type of stuff were kicked out of domestic airspace but that is just what I heard. The drones on Flight plans are not the problem, the ones operating on due regard, not talking to anyone seems to create problems for atc and the flying public. This is just my opinion and is not the FAA's position.
 
When ATC tells you "I have an amendment to your clearance; advise ready to copy":

  1. Where does the amended clearance come from? ATC's computers? The controller that is working you? Something else?
  2. How is the controller notified that your clearance has changed and that s/he needs to issue you a change?
  3. Is it usually traffic management initiatives that cause routing changes?
 
1. The controller working you can recognize a bad route for the type aircraft he is working. For example, all jets to BOS go J121 HTO BOS whereas all twins would go V139 HTO BOS and singles would go V1 JFK and so on. So if they recognize that they will amend your flight plan and make sure you recieve the amendment.

The "machine" can also generate a PDR (preferential departure route) while you are inflight and one of the controllers will be responsible to give you that amendment as well.

Additionally, if I saw a route that I know I could shorten, I would do that to save the airplane time and gas. That sort of service comes from experience.

2. The controller amending your flight plan will ensure it goes into the computer so that every controller down the line will also recieve the amendment.

3. Traffic management initiatives do sometimes initiate a routing change but I would say that is fairly uncommon. Traffic Management tries to get things amended before the airplane gets airborne. Commercial airlines "operations" divisions work closely with TMU so they are typically on the same page about weather re-routes etc.
 
Additionally, if I saw a route that I know I could shorten, I would do that to save the airplane time and gas. That sort of service comes from experience.

Service huh? :p Maybe that is what happened when I flew from Indy to an airport north of Chicago. I got "shortened" to out over Lake Michigan ~10 miles offshore. I was in and out of clouds and drizzle, and I was nowhere near gliding distance to anything but the odd freighter. I can't remember exactly what I had filed, but it was definitely a route more over land than what I was amended to.

Any time/gas savings went out the door when they turned me further out over the lake for sequencing, and I still had to fly a couple racetracks waiting for another plane that was landing at the same dog-legged podunk airport I was. I had plenty of gas, but it sure made me appreciate why you need reserves.

It was a memorable flight though. I was cleared to the BEARZ intersection :) and the approach I flew was originally developed and submitted by the guy that gave me transition training out here in Colorado.
 
"unable". If you do not wish to fly out over the lake just use that word. True, you may be sent 200 miles west around ORD! But you do not have to accept a clearance that you feel compromises safety.
 
"unable". If you do not wish to fly out over the lake just use that word. True, you may be sent 200 miles west around ORD! But you do not have to accept a clearance that you feel compromises safety.

True, make your wishes to avoid over water routing known.
 
The "machine" can also generate a PDR (preferential departure route) while you are inflight and one of the controllers will be responsible to give you that amendment as well.

Thanks for the reply! My second question was intended to ask "how do YOU (as the controller) get alerted that "the machine" has generated an updated clearance you should pass along. Do you see something on the scope? Do you get a message somehow?
 
Thanks for the reply! My second question was intended to ask "how do YOU (as the controller) get alerted that "the machine" has generated an updated clearance you should pass along. Do you see something on the scope? Do you get a message somehow?

I don't know if it's still the case, but when I was an ATC, a new strip would get printed. On days when there was heavy flow control going into a particular region, we would get multiple updates before the flight occured. Since I was a tower controller, we really didn't get enroute updates.

Here's a good generic write up on the strips.
 
Thanks for the reply! My second question was intended to ask "how do YOU (as the controller) get alerted that "the machine" has generated an updated clearance you should pass along. Do you see something on the scope? Do you get a message somehow?

On the original strip, if there is a PDR, it is printed between + symbols at the top of the strip. This PDR MUST be issued. On an "enroute" strip, it is very similar. My enroute strip will show "Plus routing" (routing between the plus signs) that alerts me I have to issue that routing.

The above explanation is not all encompassing for every situation, so I don't want any other controller bashing it, but it is generally how it works.

For controller amusement, I sometimes give single engines routing over the ocean or large body of water. If they accept it, I wait til they're way out there then ask for a radio check to see if I can sense a different octave in his/her voice. :D
 
So there is a streak inside some controllers

On the original strip,
For controller amusement, I sometimes give single engines routing over the ocean or large body of water. If they accept it, I wait til they're way out there then ask for a radio check to see if I can sense a different octave in his/her voice. :D

This is just plane mean (pun intended)
 
"Why are you changing your destination?"

During an IFR flight I was asked 2 times (different centers) why are you changing your destination".

My guess is something to do with a 9/11 type interest as a checks and balance query. Which I completely would understand, but this has been on my mind.

I was flying an airplane about the size (weight) of 50 RV's :D

And....maaaybbe .....there was a 3 hour weather delay for my route. So I thought it best to fly toward the sunny weather and "re-route" :rolleyes: myself for safety!

Anyway.....put down that rudder! what say you Mr. TK
 
John,
You are correct. Those questions are 9/11 related. The guidance has changed several times regarding what they want us to do and for whom. When it first came out it was for ALL aircraft, then changed to air carrier/air taxi types. It has changed several times since so I dont remember the exact rules. We gather that information and pass it on to big brother. That's about all I will say on that matter.

Now, there are crafty pilots manipulating the system, and that is particularly interesting to me. Let's say the aircraft wants to go to JFK and there is a ground stop for 2 hours. I have seen crafty pilots file for TEB or FRG and then when they get airborne request a change of destination to JFK. Essentially bypassing the entire hold and possibly making other "law abiding" aircraft wait even longer before they are released. When that happens, I often ask. I want to know if the pilot is that crafty. I'm sure if that became habitual, the FAA would investigate but I ask just to inform the pilot that I know what he's up to....and I'm giving him a silent nod of approval, so long as they don't do that EVERYTIME! :D
 
Watsonville Dodge

We're based at KLVK in the San Francisco east bay. High traffic areas west (SFO) and south (SJC). Because of that if you file for Monterey (due south) you always get the prefered routing of north (wrong way!), then east out over the central valley, then south, then west. Pretty round about. But if you file for Watsonville, about 30 miles closer than Monterey, the ATC computer will usually give you almost direct, over SJC. So pilots in the know who want to go to Monterey file for Watsonville, then once past SJC change destinations to Monterey. Happens so often there's a local name, the "Watsonville Dodge".
 
We're based at KLVK in the San Francisco east bay. High traffic areas west (SFO) and south (SJC). Because of that if you file for Monterey (due south) you always get the prefered routing of north (wrong way!), then east out over the central valley, then south, then west. Pretty round about. But if you file for Watsonville, about 30 miles closer than Monterey, the ATC computer will usually give you almost direct, over SJC. So pilots in the know who want to go to Monterey file for Watsonville, then once past SJC change destinations to Monterey. Happens so often there's a local name, the "Watsonville Dodge".

I don't really know of that anomaly happening around here but I would guess its a question of real estate. Watsonville is probably owned by the controllers due south so you are routed more directly. Monterey is probably owned by another facility and the facility that owns Watsonville doesn't want more traffic than necessary so the routing takes you AROUND that airspace. Hard to explain but hopefully you understand me.
 
Update

Back in October I went on my first "long" trip in the RV from San Jose, CA to California City. I decided to file a flight plan and get flight following on the trip since I haven't done either one of those for years since I've been building.

Both went without a hitch but I had a question about ending flight following at the end of the trip. When I got close to the end of each leg, I asked to terminate. However, on the return trip, just before I was going to call and cancel, ATC asked me if I had the current ATIS at RHV. I told him that I hadn't but I wanted to terminate.

I guess I'm wondering what would have happened if I didn't terminate. Would he have given me the current ATIS and then stayed with me for a while longer? I'm guessing he would have. I was about 40 NM out when I terminated.

Next time I'll let it play out.

Here's an update to my previous post at the end of last year.

So, on Sunday, I was once again at the end of a trip where I was receiving FF. Once again, the controller asked me if I had the current ATIS for my destination airport. I told her that I didn't and she proceeded to give me the numbers. At this point I decided to hang in there and not terminate radar services just to see what would happen.

When I arrived at my normal call in point, ATC told me that my service was teminated, remain on the current transponder code, and contact the tower. I would imagine that they called the tower about my arrival, who by the way, monitors the nearby SJC radar. They sequenced me like normal with no problem. I guess the advantage was that they knew exactly who I was and where I was due to the transponder code. No fuss, no muss.
 
I would imagine that they called the tower about my arrival,

In ATC-speak, you got a 'handoff' to the tower.
Just remember that with flight following you need not worry about class C or D airspace, but it is up to you to not fly into SFO' class B airspace without a specific clearance to do so. This applies even if ATC gives you a vector.
 
This is normal ops in my experience. If you remain with VFR traffic advisory up until your destination (if able), the controller is waiting for you to report field in site to switch you to tower - most will tell you to report it in site. If you are behind the curve and fail to report in site, they are going to hand you off. If a slower area, quite outside of the main cls C terminal area, and/or a ways from your destination you'll get a 'squawk VFR'. If close in, usually 'remain this code'. Just my experience as an aviator, not a controller :D
 
Flight Following and Class C and D airspace

In ATC-speak, you got a 'handoff' to the tower.
Just remember that with flight following you need not worry about class C or D airspace, but it is up to you to not fly into SFO' class B airspace without a specific clearance to do so. This applies even if ATC gives you a vector.

Gentlemen please be careful with Flight Following and controller airspace. While I agree if you are handed off to the controlling authority for a given airspace you are fine. You cannot depend on Flight Following clearing you through others airspace. I live under the PHL class B airspace and it is quite common to receive flight following from PHL approach control. But there is no guarantee that PHL approach will provide clearance into the PNE airspace (Class D) which is under the PHL Class B. It is the pilot?s responsibility under Flight Following to remain clear of controller airspace unless he is specifically cleared into it.
 
Above is not quite correct. Rules for going into class C and D say you must be in contact with ATC. Talking to center, etc., is all that is required. It is very common for center or approach control to not hand you off until you are well inside a class D area. There is nothing wrong with that.
But class B requires a specific clearance ("N12345 is cleared into the SFO class bravo airspace"). And of course class A requires an ifr clearance.
 
Above is not quite correct. Rules for going into class C and D say you must be in contact with ATC. Talking to center, etc., is all that is required. It is very common for center or approach control to not hand you off until you are well inside a class D area. There is nothing wrong with that.
But class B requires a specific clearance ("N12345 is cleared into the SFO class bravo airspace"). And of course class A requires an ifr clearance.

I mostly agree with this statement. If you are getting flight following, the controller is LIKELY going to coordinate with the adjacent facility to get you approval to go through, (except Bravo airspace) (say a Class D like PNE), however, technically speaking it is the pilots responsibility if you are merely receiving flight following. If unsure, just ask.

From the AIM:

d. VFR Requirements. It is the responsibility of the pilot to ensure that ATC clearance or radio communication requirements are met prior to entry into Class B, Class C, or Class D airspace. The pilot retains this responsibility when receiving ATC radar advisories. (See 14 CFR Part 91.)

Now it is my opinion, if you are being vectored by ATC, they WILL make sure you are "pointed out" to adjacent ATC facilities. I am PROHIBITED from entering another controllers airspace without approval, so, if I vector you there, I will make sure I have approval. While the rule above still puts responsibilty on the pilot, ATC will not violate you because they would essentially be snitching on themselves. And therefore, it WILL NOT happen.
 
When I have any concern about being cleared into airspace, I just ask the controller to "confirm I am cleared into/through XXX airspace"

Just did this on our recent flight to Roche Harbor, when we stopped at Scappoose for fuel------decent path took us into PDX airspace. Response was that we were cleared, and to report Scappoose in sight.
 
it sure would be nice for my forefight ipad to say, 5 miles from class b airspace, get your clearance, it does just about every thing else. it is amazing how easy it is to forget that one. :confused::confused:
 
When I have any concern about being cleared into airspace, I just ask the controller to "confirm I am cleared into/through XXX airspace"

Just did this on our recent flight to Roche Harbor, when we stopped at Scappoose for fuel------decent path took us into PDX airspace. Response was that we were cleared, and to report Scappoose in sight.

Completely agree. Not only is this the technically correct thing to do, I would think the controller would respect you a little more for being an "aware" pilot. Maybe that doesn't matter to ATC, but at least makes me feel good.
 
Not enough time

At RV speeds is 5NM enough time to call the controller, receive a response and get a clearance before violating the class b airspace?

What if the controller is busy or doesn't hear you for a multitude of reasons?
 
Oh, the iPad warning would be nice. My garmin warns me IF I bust airspace but clearly the airspace is depicted well in advance. What might you be doing up there Turbo? : )
 
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ADS-B

Tony,

I now have ADSB in and out. Can you tell us exactly what ATC shows on your screens?

What is a good way to check operational functionality next time I fly?

Are there any new tricks or terminology I should use when contacting ATC for IFR or VFR services?

Don
 
Don,
ADS-B is transparent to us controllers. I don't know who has or doesnt have the equipment. My perspective has not changed so the procedures would remain the same.

If you want to cross check what ATC is seeing vs what you are seeing I would make a simple request to ATC. I would wait til I had a few targets to compare and then ask them to verify the info you are seeing. Here is a sample of how that might go....

"Approach, N123, 5 south of ABC at 3500' requesting advisories for equipment check"

"N123, squawk 0222"

"Roger, squawk 0222"

"N123, Radar contact, how can I help you?"

"Approach, N123 is checking out my new ADS-B equipment and would like to verify some targets.... I show traffic at 12 oclock and 5 miles at 3500' and another at 3 oclock and 6 miles at 2800'"

"N123, I concur, I also show traffic 1 oclock and 12 miles opposite direction at 3500'"

"Thanks approach, my equipment doesn't see that far but could you point him out as he gets closer?"

"N123, Wilco."
 
Tricks for VFR Flight Following

Are there any new tricks or terminology I should use when contacting ATC for IFR or VFR services?

Don

Don,
From the flying side of the fence I have found when requesting "VFR Flight Following" to first listen to the frequency to make sure ATC hasn't just issued a control instruction to another aircraft that requires a reply from that aircraft. Once that has been confirmed I broadcast "XYZ Approach/Center, N123BB request VFR flight following." What you have done here is informed the control facility that you are not already on their display and what it is you want for a service. Then the controller can decide (based on their workload) if they can fit you into the system.

Normally, this is followed with "N123BB Go ahead with your request" and this is where you can shine by providing the following:
1. Abbreviated call sign unless full call sign is requested by ATC
2. Aircraft type with suffix
3. Position (distance & direction from geographical location or an intersection)
4. Heading (which direction you art traveling, i.e. 270)
5. Altitude (the altitude you are presently at)
6. Destination airport

So it reads like this:
N3BB, RV6 slant golf, 10 miles south DWELL intersection, heading 270, at 4500, going to Romeo Bravo Golf.

Why all that you ask? From the controller side of the fence it's called position correlation and if the controller is on their game you can be immediately be blessed with those words we love to hear, "N3BB, radar contact, squawk 0212." With the tansponder code you are now being provided VFR flight following, but keep in mind you are still VFR and the responsibility of traffic vigilance is upon the pilot in command of the aircraft.

YMMV
 
Don,
ADS-B is transparent to us controllers. I don't know who has or doesnt have the equipment.

Tony, I guess that I was under the mistaken impression that ATC could see my N number as I'm broadcasting my ICAO address. My impression sounds mistaken. So I can still be anonymous (yeah!)???

Don
 
Tony, I guess that I was under the mistaken impression that ATC could see my N number as I'm broadcasting my ICAO address. My impression sounds mistaken. So I can still be anonymous (yeah!)???

Don

You can, Don! At least for now. My current facility equipment/technology is ancient. I believe there are many facilities like that across the country and that won't be changing anytime soon. Other facilites do have very nice "more up to date" equipment but even still....they are not using the capabilites of ADS-B for identification or tracking purposes. In other words, this high tech equipment is not being utilized by ATC yet. I suspect they may start to take advantage of the capabilities at a later date but I doubt it will be before the 2020 mandate.
 
Other Radar Antennas

FAA ATC isn't the only one watching airspace over the US. Depending on how bad the violation of airspace mode s will provide the agency asking the question, "Who was that masked man"
 
Picking up IFR clearance coming out of Oshkosh

I know I should know this, but I do it so infrequently that I forgot the best way to do it. If I want to depart VFR from Oshkosh during Airventure, but pick up an IFR clearance after clearing all the inbound traffic, what's the best way to enter this into the flight plan when filing? I'm using Foreflight to file, and it asks for a departure airport. Should I put OSH there even though I don't have one of those cherished IFR reservations? Say, for example, I want to pick up a southbound clearance at the Madison VOR, how is that entered into the flightplan?
 
VFR to IFR

There are a few ways to skin this cat.

I think the easiest way is to call FSS for your weather brief and tell them you are departing OSH VFR on the Airventure routing and want to file IFR and pick up your clearance at MSN. File the IFR routing beginning at MSN.

The info such as ETE, FOB, for the IFR flight plan "form" will begin at MSN. The proposed departure time for the IFR flight will be your ETA at MSN.

Once clear of the show congestion and nearing the TRSA, oh sorry the class C, call MSN approach like any VFR aircraft and get let them know you have an IFR clearance on file and would like to pick it up.

If you are going to be above the Class C, you could obtain your IFR clearance via Chicago Center - once clear of the show traffic/routing you could call the center for flight following and let them know you have filed IFR beginning at MSN and they can get you your clearance.

Remember to follow all the rules for VFR aircraft regarding airspace until you have received your IFR clearance.

If you get a better or easy way, please let me know.

Regards,
John
 
There are a few ways to skin this cat.

I think the easiest way is to call FSS for your weather brief and tell them you are departing OSH VFR on the Airventure routing and want to file IFR and pick up your clearance at MSN. File the IFR routing beginning at MSN.

The info such as ETE, FOB, for the IFR flight plan "form" will begin at MSN. The proposed departure time for the IFR flight will be your ETA at MSN.

Once clear of the show congestion and nearing the TRSA, oh sorry the class C, call MSN approach like any VFR aircraft and get let them know you have an IFR clearance on file and would like to pick it up.

If you are going to be above the Class C, you could obtain your IFR clearance via Chicago Center - once clear of the show traffic/routing you could call the center for flight following and let them know you have filed IFR beginning at MSN and they can get you your clearance.

Remember to follow all the rules for VFR aircraft regarding airspace until you have received your IFR clearance.

If you get a better or easy way, please let me know.

Regards,
John

I agree this is probably the simplest way to do it.

The other way, if it is possible, is try to obtain the clearance on the ground through FSS but it could prove more of a hassle than its worth. But that method would be:

File with foreflight ( use your dept time from OSH because your flight plan will remain in the system for 2 hours after proposed dept time AND because it will not enter the system until 30 minutes prior)

15-20 minutes before departing OSH, call FSS for the clearance

You won't be "released" because you will pick up IFR service in the air but you will at least have all the info.

Fly VFR to vicinity of MSN then explain to the controller you have your clearance and want to activate it.

I think this is the easiest on all parties, the controller isn't scrambling for the clearance, possibly having to amend the routing, then issuing a lengthy clearance over the freq. The pilot already knows what the route is, probably has everything plugged into the magic boxes and is ahead of the game.
 
Thread renamed in memory of Tony Kelly - tkatc.

We miss you, and we will never forget you.... from your VAF family.

Got a question? Ask a controller.

Tony_Kelly.jpg
 
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How to choose a "good" route when Filing ?

I'm hoping one of our ATC trained members can help me with this one:

I'm in the process of training up for my Instrument Proficency Check. Once I get current again, most of my trips will be departing from an uncontrolled airport.

In an attempt to avoid always copying a completely new route in the air, are there any tips for filing IFR flight plans which will match up well to what ATC is likely to want me to fly? Is there a way to get the preferred/expected route while still on the ground?

Thanks.
 
Glenn,

I would use the Jepp preferred routes.

Look at the "from" airports for Norfolk & Washington and then pick a destination airport that is close to where you want to go.

You should be able to build an acceptable route.

They also have low altitude routes that allow you to transition areas like DCA/IAD.
 
Telephone Clearance

Haven't done this in a hundred years but at one time if there was no radio contact with ATC or FSS on the ground you could call them for clearance on a phone, they would read you the clearance: 'ATC clears N12345 to KXZY via blah blah blah climb and maintain xxxx on departure contact _______ 123.45 squawk code "clearance is void if not off by xxxxZ".'
 
A void time clearance. I've done those in the pre-cell phone era, calling from a phone booth, running back to the plane to get off in the allotted time.
Because this clearance ties up a chunk of airspace for 5-10 minutes, ATC may give you a clearance that keeps you clear of busy routes, until they've got you on radar and in contact; then you get the popular or better route.
 
Foreflight will give you a number of good routings (I think they are based on historical data) once you put in your departure and destination. I find the simplest usually work...but then again, we're out west of the Mississippi in the wide open spaces....
 
Clearance Delivery by phone

I am based at an uncontrolled airpprt and whenever it's IMC I call Lockheed Martin clearance on my cell. Now that I have Bluetooth in my com panel it's especially easy.

CD dedicated number is 888-766-8267.

They will want to know departure and destination, runway of departure and when your going mg to be ready. Will read you a normal clearance with your VOID time.
 
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And when you file the IFR flight plan with ForeFlight, they will email you in a few minutes with the expected route. At uncontrolled fields, I call 888-766-8267 for the clearance when within 5 to 10 minutes of departure.
I recently learned that you can file IFR from a cow pasture by using a VOR radial and distance to designate the departure airport.
 
Foreflight will give you a number of good routings (I think they are based on historical data) once you put in your departure and destination. I find the simplest usually work...but then again, we're out west of the Mississippi in the wide open spaces....

I've found that it frequently works well along the east coast, too - I filed from KCPK to KANP using the Foreflight-suggested routing, and the clearance the controller read back to me was exactly what I had filed.

The only oddity was that they read the entire clearance of saying "as filed".
 
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