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  #21  
Old 06-19-2022, 06:08 PM
Ralph Inkster Ralph Inkster is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Posts: 1,841
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"Good afternoon Canadian builders.

I'm have my final inspection in a few days. My configuration includes the VANs supplied gascolator on the firewall and the the VANs supplied AFP pump and filter assembly past the fuel selector. The inspector told me a similar config was failed recently."

Sounds pretty conventional to me. Ask specifically what your inspector thinks is wrong with the set up. You have a gascolator, you have a drain (I assume)! Make sure your MDRA guy isn't confusing your system for the one described below...


MDRA is having their hissy fits over aircraft equipped with full circulating systems with electronic fuel injection that have full recirculating plumbing incorporated (unused pressurized fuel drained right back into the tank). Which MDRA is insisting be equipped with a series of fuel filters & drains to mimic the functions of a 'gascolator' (kind of).
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  #22  
Old 06-19-2022, 08:16 PM
1bigdog 1bigdog is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Markham, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 268
Default Yes, all conventional

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Inkster View Post
"Good afternoon Canadian builders.

I'm have my final inspection in a few days. My configuration includes the VANs supplied gascolator on the firewall and the the VANs supplied AFP pump and filter assembly past the fuel selector. The inspector told me a similar config was failed recently."

Sounds pretty conventional to me. Ask specifically what your inspector thinks is wrong with the set up. You have a gascolator, you have a drain (I assume)! Make sure your MDRA guy isn't confusing your system for the one described below...


MDRA is having their hissy fits over aircraft equipped with full circulating systems with electronic fuel injection that have full recirculating plumbing incorporated (unused pressurized fuel drained right back into the tank). Which MDRA is insisting be equipped with a series of fuel filters & drains to mimic the functions of a 'gascolator' (kind of).
Yes, drain in the wings and on the gascolator. No return plumbing.

Thanks
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  #23  
Old 06-19-2022, 08:20 PM
1bigdog 1bigdog is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Markham, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Inkster View Post
"Good afternoon Canadian builders.

I'm have my final inspection in a few days. My configuration includes the VANs supplied gascolator on the firewall and the the VANs supplied AFP pump and filter assembly past the fuel selector. The inspector told me a similar config was failed recently."

Sounds pretty conventional to me. Ask specifically what your inspector thinks is wrong with the set up. You have a gascolator, you have a drain (I assume)! Make sure your MDRA guy isn't confusing your system for the one described below...


MDRA is having their hissy fits over aircraft equipped with full circulating systems with electronic fuel injection that have full recirculating plumbing incorporated (unused pressurized fuel drained right back into the tank). Which MDRA is insisting be equipped with a series of fuel filters & drains to mimic the functions of a 'gascolator' (kind of).
And specifically he was concerned that the filter didn't have a drain.
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  #24  
Old 06-19-2022, 09:50 PM
rv6ejguy's Avatar
rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
Posts: 6,261
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I'll get Les Kearney to comment here in more detail. I understand a new information circular will soon be distributed to MDRA inspectors making all this crystal clear for them after claiming they lacked guidance from Transport.

You'll only need drains in the lowest point of the fuel system. On RVs, that's generally where Vans puts the quick drains at the wing root. This is only logical as you can't drain water from a point higher than the lowest point as some inspectors were insisting on.

This has been an drawn out ordeal for Les and other builders in Canada going on for a few years now. I think it's finally resolved but we thought so twice before too...
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Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 457.6 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
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  #25  
Old 06-20-2022, 07:16 AM
kearney kearney is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Canmore, Alberta, Canada
Posts: 64
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Michael

You need to demonstrate that your fuel system provides an adequate supply of clean fuel. Properly sized filters and low point drains meets this requirement.

As Ross mentioned I have been chasing this issue with TCCA for a very long time. I have it in writing from TCCA that gascolators are not mandatory. FWIW, a filter with a drain IS a gascolator.

I recently received confirmation of this from the Assist. Director General of TCCA, Andy Cook. That being said, some MD-RA inspectors feel that gascolators must be installed. Rather than argue, I suggest you reach out to the MD-RA general manager, Al Mahon and see what he says. I know he knows what the current requirements are.

An RV10 builder received his SCofA yesterday. He was initially snagged for not having a gascolator but it was issued after he contacted TCCA. I have built 2 RV-10s without a gascolator and in December an RV14 was approved as well.

If you still have a problem, send me an email (les@kmcl.ca) and I'll help you out.
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RV10 C-GCWZ Sold and now vacationing in Tulsa
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  #26  
Old 06-20-2022, 07:50 AM
1bigdog 1bigdog is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Markham, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kearney View Post
Michael

You need to demonstrate that your fuel system provides an adequate supply of clean fuel. Properly sized filters and low point drains meets this requirement.

As Ross mentioned I have been chasing this issue with TCCA for a very long time. I have it in writing from TCCA that gascolators are not mandatory. FWIW, a filter with a drain IS a gascolator.

I recently received confirmation of this from the Assist. Director General of TCCA, Andy Cook. That being said, some MD-RA inspectors feel that gascolators must be installed. Rather than argue, I suggest you reach out to the MD-RA general manager, Al Mahon and see what he says. I know he knows what the current requirements are.

An RV10 builder received his SCofA yesterday. He was initially snagged for not having a gascolator but it was issued after he contacted TCCA. I have built 2 RV-10s without a gascolator and in December an RV14 was approved as well.

If you still have a problem, send me an email (les@kmcl.ca) and I'll help you out.
thanks for the support. Will let you know how things go Wednesday.
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  #27  
Old 06-20-2022, 10:23 AM
TS Flightlines TS Flightlines is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Ridgeland, SC
Posts: 3,086
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Michael and others, Just thinking out loud here.
Our wing root filter packages for the RV10 and 14 ( and others) use the tank drains as the low point of the system. In the wing roots, the filters are slightly higher than the tank drains. But----if the inspectors are wanting filter drains (IE like a gascolator) I suppose we can come up with something.

A conventional gascolator like the Vans/Usher, or the Andair have drains, but the fitting ports are alot higher, depending on the gascolator. Thats something that promotes a plumbing problem---especially when the tank supply port is low on the rib. If you install either of those version gascolators in the wing roots, there is a fairly significant elevation change in the plumbing to get to the ports, then back down to the fuselage fittings. In the case of the Andair GAS375, thats about 3.25 +- inches. Space in the root is fairly small, so that might promote an issue.

Some builders have gone to using the Aerolabs gascolator unit with the drains. Nice unit, but does have its own little quirks for install. Most common location is under the selector valve, but with the RV14 and the angled tunnel, and little room, it promotes a problem.

A note about the elevation change in the plumbing. Not an issue, because the way the selector valves are positioned in the RV7/9, 8, 10 and 14, its already high so the fuel is pulled up, to the valve, then back down to the boost pump. Over the years has proved to be a non issue.

Tom
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Teflon Hose Assemblies for Experimentals
Proud Vendor for RV1, Donator to VAF
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  #28  
Old 06-20-2022, 07:10 PM
DerekS DerekS is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 76
Default One more data point

I completed the final inspection on my RV-10 last week. (Woohoo). I had a Aerolabs gascolator in the tunnel so no issues there but did have a conversation with the inspector about what would be a sufficient drainable filter.

His concern specifically was that the filter had to have a drain. He further clarified that just putting a T in front of the standard position filter would not serve the purpose, since the filter was on it's side and could accumulate water.

If the filter had been vertical with a T at the bottom for a quick drain, then that would have been ok.

YMMV, feels like we are moving closer, but still a topic to check with your specific inspector.
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  #29  
Old 06-20-2022, 08:41 PM
rv6ejguy's Avatar
rv6ejguy rv6ejguy is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Calgary, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS View Post
I completed the final inspection on my RV-10 last week. (Woohoo). I had a Aerolabs gascolator in the tunnel so no issues there but did have a conversation with the inspector about what would be a sufficient drainable filter.

His concern specifically was that the filter had to have a drain. He further clarified that just putting a T in front of the standard position filter would not serve the purpose, since the filter was on it's side and could accumulate water.

If the filter had been vertical with a T at the bottom for a quick drain, then that would have been ok.

YMMV, feels like we are moving closer, but still a topic to check with your specific inspector.
Did you happen to ask this inspector what purpose a drain on the bottom of the filter would serve since in most RV-10s with root filters it's a couple inches higher than the drain on the tank? How could you possibly drain water from the filter after using the tank quick drain? US regs don't require this so, I have to wonder if MDRA inspectors somehow believe that the laws of physics are different north of the 49th Parallel?

If you got water in your load of fuel or your caps leaked outside after a rain, that water will be the in the tanks when you sump them. It cannot migrate uphill into root filters or anywhere else outside of the tanks.
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Ross Farnham, Calgary, Alberta
Turbo Subaru EJ22, SDS EFI, Marcotte M-300, IVO, Shorai- RV6A C-GVZX flying from CYBW since 2003- 457.6 hrs. on the Hobbs,
RV10 95% built- Sold 2016
http://www.sdsefi.com/aircraft.html
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiy...g2GvQfelECCGoQ



Last edited by rv6ejguy : 06-20-2022 at 08:49 PM.
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  #30  
Old 06-20-2022, 09:14 PM
DerekS DerekS is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rv6ejguy View Post
Did you happen to ask this inspector what purpose a drain on the bottom of the filter would serve since in most RV-10s with root filters it's a couple inches higher than the drain on the tank? How could you possibly drain water from the filter after using the tank quick drain? US regs don't require this so, I have to wonder if MDRA inspectors somehow believe that the laws of physics are different north of the 49th Parallel?

If you got water in your load of fuel or your caps leaked outside after a rain, that water will be the in the tanks when you sump them. It cannot migrate uphill into root filters or anywhere else outside of the tanks.
Having tried to aviate in a number of different countries over the years I've observed in each country the need to be a little bit "better" than the worlds largest fleet - normally due to some (perceived or real) unique operating condition, but sometimes also because someone thinks or thought its a best practice. Normally not the guy you get to meet.

Since water in the fuel puts airplanes into the trees at the end of the runway pretty consistently, and the US doesn't have aluminum tree decorations at the end of their runways, I think we can safely say this one is not driving a lot of accidents, even if we can contrive ways of getting the water downstream into some later low point.

That said the path to getting planes into the air, in the short term is figuring out the path that gets the piece of paper and long term fixing the silly things that slowly strangle the sport (of which there is a long list).

I was in short term mode.

Derek
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