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So You Think You Can Make That 180 Back After Takeoff

A lot has to do with pilot skill, so anyone contemplating it as a future option should probably practice it and discover their own personal minimums. Just remember you’ll get no thrust and increased drag with a stopped prop so add in a cushion.
 
A lot has to do with pilot skill, so anyone contemplating it as a future option should probably practice it and discover their own personal minimums. Just remember you’ll get no thrust and increased drag with a stopped prop so add in a cushion.

The other thing to remember is that you do the impossible turn to avoid a forced landing in an unsuitable location. You don't have to put the airplane on the centerline of the runway, although that would be a great outcome. All you're really doing is trying to save your skin. So if you damage the airplane landing it on <relatively flat) territory on airport property, so be it.

Just don't stall it and have an uncontrolled crash.
 
A lot has to do with pilot skill, so anyone contemplating it as a future option should probably practice it and discover their own personal minimums. Just remember you’ll get no thrust and increased drag with a stopped prop so add in a cushion.

+1 Exactly. Turning through approximately 180 degrees without engine power is hardly a high risk aerobatic manoeuvre. But like all emergency manoeuvres it is MUCH more likely to be successfully executed by a pilot who is proficient in the technique. Forced off field landings...stall recovery...turnback at take-off...you don't want to be attempting any of these things for the first time in a real emergency. Practice makes perfect.
 
My instructor drilled me on the turn back before my first flight. Best loss, 150 ft. 200 typical. He yanked the throttle, counted to 4 before I could act, then nose down to unload the wing(s) and a fast 180. then straight to a spot and glide speed. Prop full out. It really takes practice (at altitude) to understand the limits.

Edit: Having watched the webinar, the authors did an excellent job of basic analysis and identification of the key variables. The best climb and best glide (practical) were dominate in deciding whether any airplane can successfully perform a turn-back. Everyone that is technically mind should see this and understand that success is first determined by the aircraft performance. Second by takeoff and climb selection, and third by pilot skills. There are many gotchas remaining that can ruin the day, but if #1 is not capable, then the rest are irrelevant.

Watch the webinar - highly recommended.
 
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I tried and practice that, mainly because I operate from a not so friendly airport for take off.
After some practice up high, I practiced at the airport and I could make the turn and land at 600 AGL with counting to 3 for reaction time before starting my turn. Having said that, I don't believe I will try it in a real situation as the margin of mishap is way too great. You will need a very steep turn and right above the stall speed, know what the wind is doing and which way to turn.
 
For the link, go to the EAA web site, Videos and then Webenars, it is recorded there.

As for other comments above, I can tell some REALLY need to watch it. Yes, it something you need to practice and investigate with your particular aircraft...but I think most would be surprised that for some aircraft and under many conditions...it’s just not possible to get back to the runway no matter how skillful you are.
 
Pre Departure brief

A 180 back to the airport should only be an option if briefed prior to departure. In a single pilot operation - yes, talk to yourself. At some locations, the 180 back is a better option than anything off airport. But, at many locations there are viable alternatives nearly straight ahead. This is part of the regulatory requirement to obtain "all available information concerning that flight" -91.103
 
The Impossible 180* turn after eng failure.

I've gone out and taught myself these. Why?? Because at the end of my runway is nothing but buildings, ie certain death. (Death is guaranteed to ruin your whole day) (And the winds are "always" down the bad runway.) So I went up to 7000' first--yanked the throttle, counted 1001,1002,1003, 1004---THEN pushed the yoke forward abruptly. I played with angles of bank, and airspeeds. (Now this is on "my" RV 8, Might be different on your 8,7,6, 4,3, 9, 10, 12, or 14)

Here's what I found. Anything over a 45* angle of bank started stall shuttering. (That's with full flaps)

Also anything below that 85 KIAS "AT" that 45* bank also started the shuttering.

(I should just put this together)----more than 45* bank angle and less then 85 knots with full flaps, was a no no. I "could" get down to 75 KIAS, but my bank ankle had to be considerably less. AND---while making the almost 270* turn back, you've got to remember to get your full 45* of flaps out---(or else):eek:

So after I practiced this routine at a safe altitude numerous times, I went down to a very sleepy airport, and practiced there. Ye-e-e-e-eh, I can do them from 500 feet, but don't forget, I knew it was coming---no surprise factor. I could definitely do them from 700 feet. But---I thought, nah, unless its nothing but hard buildings in front of me, I'm "not" gonna try it below 1000'.

So guys--------------think about your own particular situation. Is there decent grass and flatness in front of you? Land straight ahead---forget everything I've said here. (And I forgotten to mention, this is practice for an engine failure at your home airport---if you're out in tim buc tu, one is probably NOT gonna know the layout around "that" airport if the engine quits.)

2>Next--- See if there's "empty" roads or fields just off to your left or right. ONLY IF THERRE'S ZIP----NADA there--ie---you're gonna die---then go up and practice what I've said here. And please go high enough at first, so if you wind up going straight down due to a )*^$#, you've got plenty of altitude to pull out of it.

ALSO: If you do practice this at altitude, and then down low, make sure you learn em in both directions, left AND RIGHT. Ya never know. You might have to go right.

I could have written this in a little better order, but I was too lazy to rewrite it all:p

Taking off, blankaty blank engine quits, you've attained whatever "your magic altitude" is for "YOU" from your practicing. (Never forget it--note what your airport looks like at "that" particular altitude.) If It's me, I'm immediately lowering the nose, thumb already running out full flaps, banking left up to 45* and airspped no less than 85 Kts.

Go out and practice practice, practice. (At altitude first) Actually its fun:cool:

AND------------do em every 6 months------or you'll get rusty.:mad:

And last but not least, I know guys out there will poo poo me. I've got well over 900 hours in my 8, and roughly 23000 TT
 
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...but I think most would be surprised that for some aircraft and under many conditions...it’s just not possible to get back to the runway no matter how skillful you are.

There was an article with analysis by Charlie Precourt in one of the flying magazines not long ago. He basically compared best climb rate and best glide sink rate. But his analysis has a glaring error. He made the assertion that if your sink rate is greater than your climb rate, you can not make it back to the runway. This is incorrect. What he should have said was that if your sink rate is greater than your climb rate, you can not make it back to your take-off point.

Whether you can make it back to the runway depends also on how long the runway is. I can't make it back to my take-off point, but if the runway is long enough, I can make it to the runway. (need to also account for the turn of course, so the glide path is longer than just magically turning around, and the sink rate is increased some).
 
Now go repeat all this with zero flaps and use best glide speed. For the turn, you would ideally use the minimum sink speed adjusted for the bank load factor. For a 45 degree turn, your load factor is 1.4, so increase speed above the 1-g min-sink speed by 20% - which is pretty darn close to your best glide speed. Try 100--105 kts with 45 bank, zero flaps.

Flaps are primarily for increasing sink rate - which is the last thing you want to do in this scenario. The reduction in stall speed is of no help since you should be flying well above the clean stall speed.

I've gone out and taught myself these. Why?? Because at the end of my runway is nothing but buildings, ie certain death. (Death is guaranteed to ruin your whole day) (And the winds are "always" down the bad runway.) So I went up to 7000' first--yanked the throttle, counted 1001,1002,1003, 1004---THEN pushed the yoke forward abruptly. I played with angles of bank, and airspeeds. (Now this is on "my" RV 8, Might be different on your 8,7,6, 4,3, 9, 10, 12, or 14)

Here's what I found. Anything over a 45* angle of bank started stall shuttering. (That's with full flaps)

Also anything below that 85 KIAS "AT" that 45* bank also started the shuttering.

(I should just put this together)----more than 45* bank angle and less then 85 knots with full flaps, was a no no. I "could" get down to 75 KIAS, but my bank ankle had to be considerably less. AND---while making the almost 270* turn back, you've got to remember to get your full 45* of flaps out---(or else):eek:

So after I practiced this routine at a safe altitude numerous times, I went down to a very sleepy airport, and practiced there. Ye-e-e-e-eh, I can do them from 500 feet, but don't forget, I knew it was coming---no surprise factor. I could definitely do them from 700 feet. But---I thought, nah, unless its nothing but hard buildings in front of me, I'm "not" gonna try it below 1000'.

So guys--------------think about your own particular situation. Is there decent grass and flatness in front of you? Land straight ahead---forget everything I've said here. (And I forgotten to mention, this is practice for an engine failure at your home airport---if you're out in tim buc tu, one is probably NOT gonna know the layout around "that" airport if the engine quits.)

2>Next--- See if there's "empty" roads or fields just off to your left or right. ONLY IF THERRE'S ZIP----NADA there--ie---you're gonna die---then go up and practice what I've said here. And please go high enough at first, so if you wind up going straight down due to a )*^$#, you've got plenty of altitude to pull out of it.

ALSO: If you do practice this at altitude, and then down low, make sure you learn em in both directions, left AND RIGHT. Ya never know. You might have to go right.

I could have written this in a little better order, but I was too lazy to rewrite it all:p

Taking off, blankaty blank engine quits, you've attained whatever "your magic altitude" is for "YOU" from your practicing. (Never forget it--note what your airport looks like at "that" particular altitude.) If It's me, I'm immediately lowering the nose, thumb already running out full flaps, banking left up to 45* and airspped no less than 85 Kts.

Go out and practice practice, practice. (At altitude first) Actually its fun:cool:

AND------------do em every 6 months------or you'll get rusty.:mad:

And last but not least, I know guys out there will poo poo me. I've got well over 900 hours in my 8, and roughly 23000 TT
 
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In all of the discussions about turn-backs, it seems to always be altitude that is discussed. The altitude above the airport is meaningless, without also having the distance from the airport (i.e., what is the slope of the line back to the airport). 700' agl two miles from the airport vs 700' agl 1/4 mile from the airport are very different situations.

Perhaps the EAA video discusses this, I haven't yet watched it.
 
Demonstrated in RV-9A

A very experienced and highly skilled CFI demonstrated a 180 degree turn and return to the runway, in a fixed pitch -9A. This was done from 300 feet AGL at 110 knots, with a closed throttle. I've never experienced anything like it and it felt like a fairly violent steep turn/wingover. It certainly demonstrated the RV (and CFI) capabilities and I think it would take a quite a bit of practice to perfect the technique.
 
The airport I typically teach out of (JYO) has one runway direction that gives you "straight out" landing options and one that gives you very few in the other. For this reason, my primary students get a takeoff briefing process hammered into their heads on every. single. flight.

At some point in their training I will yank the throttle somewhere and begin the count and the startle factor of 3-4 seconds is the norm....for the experienced students. For the newbies they frequently freeze.

After that, we go into the simulator and that's where the fun starts, because I can control wind conditions and reset each time. And it's a very eye-opening experience for them when they realize what can and can't be done with a 172, safely. We go back up in the air after that and practice at altitude.

We're also lucky to be very near an airport with an 8,000' runway (KMRB) where we can practice some of these scenarios - especially power off 180s - for the first time with a high margin of error.

What's interesting to me, though - and this is purely anecdata - is that the engine failure on takeoff is, statistically, the least-likely scenario we face in emergencies....but there's no better lesson in energy management, I think. Maybe glider flying....
 
Turn back.

I add one more thing at my home airport, a thirty degree turn off of take off runway heading gives a huge advantage in the turn back. Uncontrolled airport. I can turn back consistently from 600 ft. the runway is 5002 ft. Long, in a strong headwind I might run off of the end at a very slow speed. I have practiced a lot and had a pilot observer in the right seat to monitor bank and airspeed.
 
I've gone out and taught myself these. Why?? Because at the end of my runway is nothing but buildings, ie certain death. (Death is guaranteed to ruin your whole day) (And the winds are "always" down the bad runway.) So I went up to 7000' first--yanked the throttle, counted 1001,1002,1003, 1004---THEN pushed the yoke forward abruptly. I played with angles of bank, and airspeeds. (Now this is on "my" RV 8, Might be different on your 8,7,6, 4,3, 9, 10, 12, or 14)

Here's what I found. Anything over a 45* angle of bank started stall shuttering. (That's with full flaps)

Also anything below that 85 KIAS "AT" that 45* bank also started the shuttering.

(I should just put this together)----more than 45* bank angle and less then 85 knots with full flaps, was a no no. I "could" get down to 75 KIAS, but my bank ankle had to be considerably less. AND---while making the almost 270* turn back, you've got to remember to get your full 45* of flaps out---(or else):eek:

So after I practiced this routine at a safe altitude numerous times, I went down to a very sleepy airport, and practiced there. Ye-e-e-e-eh, I can do them from 500 feet, but don't forget, I knew it was coming---no surprise factor. I could definitely do them from 700 feet. But---I thought, nah, unless its nothing but hard buildings in front of me, I'm "not" gonna try it below 1000'.

So guys--------------think about your own particular situation. Is there decent grass and flatness in front of you? Land straight ahead---forget everything I've said here. (And I forgotten to mention, this is practice for an engine failure at your home airport---if you're out in tim buc tu, one is probably NOT gonna know the layout around "that" airport if the engine quits.)

2>Next--- See if there's "empty" roads or fields just off to your left or right. ONLY IF THERRE'S ZIP----NADA there--ie---you're gonna die---then go up and practice what I've said here. And please go high enough at first, so if you wind up going straight down due to a )*^$#, you've got plenty of altitude to pull out of it.

ALSO: If you do practice this at altitude, and then down low, make sure you learn em in both directions, left AND RIGHT. Ya never know. You might have to go right.

I could have written this in a little better order, but I was too lazy to rewrite it all:p

Taking off, blankaty blank engine quits, you've attained whatever "your magic altitude" is for "YOU" from your practicing. (Never forget it--note what your airport looks like at "that" particular altitude.) If It's me, I'm immediately lowering the nose, thumb already running out full flaps, banking left up to 45* and airspped no less than 85 Kts.

Go out and practice practice, practice. (At altitude first) Actually its fun:cool:

AND------------do em every 6 months------or you'll get rusty.:mad:

And last but not least, I know guys out there will poo poo me. I've got well over 900 hours in my 8, and roughly 23000 TT


Full flaps is going to reduce your ability to glide substantially. Personally I would stay clean until the runway is assured. If however you feel the need for flaps ½ Flaps will provide 90% of the stall speed reduction full flaps provides with much less drag.
 
Just me

At airports i am unfamiliar with, and dont know the straight out options, I usually do a climb out in the pattern. It keeps me close to the airport if things go bad. But it seems to me, the engine failure on take off most concerning is one caused by fuel starvation just after rotation; those that happen when all the available fuel is used up on the taxi out and/or runup. I think the easiest way to avoid this scenario is to make the runup of sufficient duration to ensure fresh fuel is being pulled from the tanks, and not just the fuel stored in the float bowl is being consumed.
 
I add one more thing at my home airport, a thirty degree turn off of take off runway heading gives a huge advantage in the turn back.
Another option is to hold runway heading and let any crosswind present drift you off the centerline. Then any turn back is into wind, which will artificially tighten the the turning circle and keep you closer in. I do this at both controlled and uncontrolled fields. Every little bit helps.

At larger controlled airports, keep in mind the location and orientation of adjacent runways, too. There's little point in trying to make almost 360 degrees of turning to make the runway you left if you can make a 180 to a parallel runway, or a 120 or 240 to a diagonal.
 
180?

My instructor drilled me on the turn back before my first flight. Best loss, 150 ft. 200 typical. He yanked the throttle, counted to 4 before I could act, then nose down to unload the wing(s) and a fast 180. then straight to a spot and glide speed. Prop full out. It really takes practice (at altitude) to understand the limits.

This is partly the crux of the problem. Unless you have 2 widely spaced parallel runways or a very wide airport with lots of room between the runway and hangars, parked aircraft, etc., or a VERY strong crosswind (and you remember to turn into it), the impossible turn is more than 180 degrees of turn due to turn radius offsetting the aircraft from the runway. If you plan on 270 + 90 (conservative but closer to the truth than 180) then you will see you need much more altitude than 150 -200'. In fact, anyone that thinks they can do a true impossible turn with only 150-200' altitude loss in an RV is simply setting themselves up for failure.

Also, prop "full out" may not give realistic results either, especially with an idling engine because: 1. In a real engine out scenario you may not have the luxury of oil pressure to control the prop, 2. An idling engine with a constant speed prop "full out" is likely to produce thrust.

Personally, in my RV-8, I would not attempt a turn back with less than 800' AGL to spare. And I have practiced this a LOT.

Skylor
 
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I should have mentioned that the EAA is collecting data on the turn back performance of different aircraft. The project is in support of the development of a preflight tool that you could use for your aircraft. There are several test cards you would fill out. In return, you would get a assessment of your aircraft’s capability to “make the turn”. Again, watch the video for details.
 
The Webinar is Great

This is becoming more important as development keeps going on around airports, limiting options for off-field forced landings. The webinar started with a look at the statistics, which are pretty grim. I know of one pilot (Barry Schiff, Brian's Dad) who has done it twice. He had to because there were no good options with flying straight. I know another guy who did it in an Aeronca C-3 bathtub, of all things. I knew one pilot who died trying. Just setting a decision altitude is not enough. Whether an airplane can get back to the departure runway depends on many things I'd never thought about... density altitude, wind, runway length, gross weight, engine performance, pilot performance, and of course how well the airplane glides among other things. I was surprised when one of the presenters did some tests with his Cherokee 140 and discovered that it didn't matter how high he climbed, he could never get back to the runway because the airplane could not outclimb it's glide. In fact, the higher he climbed, the worse it got because he was also flying further out of gliding range. They're working on software that, after plugging in airport-specific and airplane-specific data, will suggest possibilities for return to the departure runway or another runway, and failing that, places to land off field. Toward that, they offer free downloadable test cards so pilots can determine performance data for their own airplanes, and further, they'll analyze your submitted data and provide you with results... then they can anonymously add that data to their dataset. I'm thinking we RVers have a bit of an advantage since most of our airplanes have a bit of extra horsepressure in the bank so we can climb a bit better than the average spam can. Testing will determine if I'm right about that. It was a great two hours, highly, highly recommended.
 
To posters 13 and 21. I'm at zero flaps on the takeoff. As I'm bending the airplane around in that 270* turn, to get back to the airport, I'm running out my flaps to lower my stall speed, so I don't stall and die. (At 45* bank, I'm gonna stall with no flaps, and I'm at max bank trying to get back to the runway) ) The airport is right there----behind me. To leave the flaps up---well Ok, sure, but that would mean I'm high enough above the airport, that I can afford the luxury of having a higher stall speed, and more time to glide back, ie, I'm farther away. Understand?
 
Watching the presentation of how the Cherokee could never make it back to the airport was an eye opener for me. It wasn't just the flying technique, but there are multitudes of factors involved, density altitude, runway length, wind speed, airplane performance. They also discussed the Mooney on YouTube that made the impossible turn. Using the tool that was presented, it showed the only reasons the Mooney made it back are the low density altitude from a very cold winter day, and the Mooney was over 500ft. If the Mooney was turning back at 400ft, or the air temperature was 75degF, it would not make it back to the airport.
 
I add one more thing at my home airport, a thirty degree turn off of take off runway heading gives a huge advantage in the turn back. Uncontrolled airport. I can turn back consistently from 600 ft. the runway is 5002 ft. Long, in a strong headwind I might run off of the end at a very slow speed. I have practiced a lot and had a pilot observer in the right seat to monitor bank and airspeed.

This is a great point! Departure from my home field leaves few options to the South. Angling the southerly climb out would be an excellent option for possible power loss on take off.
 
Understand?

No


Full flaps doesn't provide for much additional stall speed reduction but it does produce a significant increase in drag (typically not good in this type of flight situation)

It might make sense in a very specific set of circumstances but that is the biggest problem with this type of situation..... there is no standard condition.
 
webinar

Very good webinar - the best I've seen on the "impossible turn". One thing I learned from it is to not fly an underpowered aircraft! :D You just need to be able to climb faster than your glide speed, stay awake in case something happens to your engine during climbout, and get the nose down.

Gotta admit, some of my climbs are a bit shallow trying to make sure I don't get CHTs over 400, but I'm certainly going to take into account what I learned in this webinar, and run the test cards they suggest. I'm in "test card" mode anyway, so not a problem.

Avoiding a straight out departure also seems to be a pretty easy way to reduce risk.
 
Assume engine out

Every takeoff it is assumed engine out, unless proven otherwise.
It’s going to quit, one day. I assume it will be today and I’m focused and ready. So ready that sometimes a bit disappointed it doesn’t quit. Kinda weird but those who train and train and train sometimes deep down would like to see the real thing, but at some time, not want to see the real thing. Hard to explain.

For my -9, I’m at pattern altitude a little past half way down the runway and so I have more margins and options. All that hp and prop is my margin maker at takeoff.

Engine out in the twin is either a VMC rollover or crash straight ahead unless you clean it up VERY fast. Blue line means nothing in the Aerostar with both flaps and gear down.

Assume the worst and stay focused and tell your passenger to hush up while you are in the cone of danger.
 
After reading a few articles on the subject I have changed from climbing out at VY to VX...I'm usually solo and I can climb decently. I have practiced the 180 and feel that at 500' agl I can do the 180 plus have 100' to manuever ...but that's if I know its coming, so realistically 600' would be my personal decision height.
 
To posters 13 and 21. I'm at zero flaps on the takeoff. As I'm bending the airplane around in that 270* turn, to get back to the airport, I'm running out my flaps to lower my stall speed, so I don't stall and die. (At 45* bank, I'm gonna stall with no flaps, and I'm at max bank trying to get back to the runway) ) The airport is right there----behind me. To leave the flaps up---well Ok, sure, but that would mean I'm high enough above the airport, that I can afford the luxury of having a higher stall speed, and more time to glide back, ie, I'm farther away. Understand?

No, I don’t understand. Best glide speed for our aircraft is well above stall. In this maneuver, the objective is to get back to the runway. Running out the flaps will always work against you in this case. Once you are assured of making the runway, or have picked a landing point, deploying the flaps at that point is a standard emergency checklist item. If you’re worried about stalling in the maneuver, and you should be, just don’t stall.
 
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+1 Exactly. Turning through approximately 180 degrees without engine power is hardly a high risk aerobatic manoeuvre. But like all emergency manoeuvres it is MUCH more likely to be successfully executed by a pilot who is proficient in the technique. Forced off field landings...stall recovery...turnback at take-off...you don't want to be attempting any of these things for the first time in a real emergency. Practice makes perfect.

nods

I'm glad that I had in instructor who first demonstrated, and then had me fly, real-world turnbacks. This was during my initial tailwheel training, in a Citabria...we did them from 350'.

I'm glad we did this not because now I "know how to do them," but rather because I now know that it's a very intimidating maneuver. It's not hard at all to imagine how someone trying this for the first time under stress might react poorly and kill themselves.

I maintain that the maneuver is not inherently impossible - rather, the impossibility comes from people who believe they can "rise to the occasion" and try out a whole new flight regime in a do-or-die situation.
 
No, I don’t understand. Best glide speed for our aircraft is well above stall. In this maneuver, the objective is to get back to the runway.

In my world, the objective is to put the airplane down somewhere relatively flat that won't hurt me or the passengers. A runway would be nice, but the grass near the runway would be fine too and much better than stalling it into a bunch of trees. A chainlink fence isn't a bad thing to hit once you're on the ground. There's some give and lots of deceleration.
 
Our SOP is to always climb the first 400-500ft at vx/70kts and then accelerate to 85+.... gets you through the "danger zone" the quickest/steepest (before obstacles) way possible, I believe.
The options then literally improve with every additional 100ft gained...
On our aircraft (RV7A, IO360/180hp, Hartzell cs prop) this also means neutral pitch trim and very little inputs required to maintain attitude with most other than very aft c.g. conditions (slight nose down trim needed then). The transition to that attitude however stuns many passengers as the resulting deck angle gets really quite high ;-)

Of course this angle initially frightens when you think about engine failure... And frankly in many less agile aircraft types this might be an issue.
I did however quite a few "simulated" engine failures at altitude from exactly this attitude and from full takeoff power setting during test flying.
The good news is that the moment the propwash vanishes from the tail, the nose comes down quite easily without excessive input required and it doesn't need as much of a push as you would imagine (although a little) to go from climb to descent and increase speed to best glide 85kts+.
I highly recommend to practice this with your own aircraft as "getting it right" is really quite important for any next steps... Otherwise you either loose too much altitude and go overspeed or you end up with underspeed and high descent rate and with the nose too high.

Having transition trained with Jan Bussell in Florida on his -6A, he "swam against the flow" by instructing and focusing quite a bit on the "impossible turn" despite the common reservations against.
I found this honestly quite enlightening, even though it definitely shouldn't be the first choice of action.
He demonstrated it with as little as 600ft altitude loss including somewhat of an alignment, my comfort zone would be more like 700+ft for a "simple" 180° and 1000ft+ to realign with a runway/airport area. Also, this was flight training with the engine never actually stopped...
In all cases you end up quite a bit downwind and initially offset from the point of liftoff. But that may be a field instead of bad obstacles or buildings.
So it is very helpful to know the surroundings and adapt your plans accordingly.

By the way, Jan taught flaps out only ever well through the turn / when landing / wings level was assured. Speed 90kts+ for much of the turn and an immediate but steady bank angle of about 45-50° if I remember right. Maybe someone else also trained with him and has a better description of his method?
 
The webinar was very eye-opening. The main takeaway I got was the analysis that showed the glide line versus the climb angle. If you are not above that best glide angle on climb out, there’s no way you will make it back to the airport in a turn back. There aren’t a lot of airplanes that can do that in standard ISA conditions. Our RV’s are usually an exception, conditions not withstanding, but training in this maneuver is important. A complete power loss during this critical phase of flight is a life or death situation, and the possible dire consequences are immediately in your face. Practicing this beforehand, many times, will help to make the response more automatic. There is no cookie cutter solution here for our RV’s. Every airplane is different. A constant speed prop makes a very noticeable difference, as does gross weight, CG, and density altitude. The three airplanes I built all had constant speed props. My current RV4, which I didn’t build, has a fixed pitch prop. The difference with a complete loss of thrust is dramatic. When we practiced this in the airlines with a complete loss of power during a high energy climb (a Sully aftermath), it required a fairly rapid reduction in pitch, to the extent that we “became light in the seat” as they called it. In my fixed pitch RV4, it’s way less dramatic. In fact, if I’m in trim on takeoff, and lose thrust, I really only need to release any back pressure to completely unload the wing, which should result in zero G loading. It’s impossible to stall a wing at zero G. It’s the same situation with a constant speed prop, but the pitch change and descent rate is greater. Practicing this is important for your airplane with varying gross weights and atmospheric conditions.

I read a controversial idea in one of the magazines a short time ago, addressing this subject. It was determined with testing, that if you turned downwind after takeoff to get a 10-30 degree downwind track (more in lighter winds, less in stronger crosswinds), a turn back after power loss - into the wind, resulted in lower altitude loss, due to tighter turn radius relative to ground track, and closer alignment with the departure runway for the emergency landing. Makes sense to me. I haven’t tried it yet. Probably only applicable at uncontrolled airports.

Whatever you do, you need to think about it and maybe brief yourself before takeoff, so when the unexpected happens, even though you are surprised, you’ll know exactly what to do. Pick an altitude, pick a spot. Those two critical decisions are already made. Now just fly the plane.

This is easy to talk about, not so easy to successfully accomplish. Training is the key, and you can do this training solo. I’ve done it.... but I haven’t done it enough.
 
For me personally a turn back is my absolute last choice, just too many variables to make it the number one priority.
My 8 climbs like a homesick Angel I don't touch the gas pedal till I'm thru a grand, that takes very little time.
There is so many gotcha's in a turn back. Forget the aerodynamics of it for a moment. Obstructions, terrain, Rwy length, WIND, other traffic, overrun at the other end & rushed decisions. I'd rather trim for min glide speed and put down straight ahead +|- a few degrees.
 
E=1/2mv2

Unless there is absolutely no options ahead and I’ve plenty of height I never contemplate turning back. As even if successful you’re now landing high speed downwind. Even a 10 knot wind will double the energy you have to dissipate on our Vans aircraft. I’d rather hit something slowly ahead than take my chances of not stalling and then trying to land at high speed.
But I also generally fly off shorter grass airfields.
 
My technique is to make the decision on the ground, at zero airspeed. Consider all the factors...winds, weather, terrain, obstacles, alternative landing areas, etc. Set a “go/no go” altitude on the altimeter. Engine fails prior to that altitude, you don’t turn around. Above that altitude, make the turn back.

Of course you also need to practice. Often! In my practice I’m comfortable doing it from 600’. But power at idle, constant speed prop is probably not the same as a dead engine. Not gonna test that, so I personally use 800’.
 
250 Foot AGL Turn Back

https://youtu.be/trnwzBYvBQg

I find it helpful to be able to listen to Vx AoA and Vy AoA during takeoff. Flaps 20 in the RV-4 is optimum lift/drag trade off. Flaps 10 would be better, but my Armstrong system only has two settings. ONSPEED reference provides optimum glide cues during maneuvering.

Unlike airspeed, AOA isn’t effected by weight, G load, or density altitude. Nice for us less talented stick monkeys that have trouble with cockpit math.

Vac
FlyONSPEED.org
 
Great discussion here and eye opening I'm sure for lots of folks. One thing no one has mentioned is that generally (and don't beat me up on this because I said generally and not usually) engines don't just slam into a stopped prop. Generally there are a few hints of it giving you some problems before just stopping. Something that is hard to drill in my head is during takeoff at the first sign of any burble in the engine, immediately get in the mind set of what your options are. Without naming any names, or even type of plane, I was in another pilot's plane when on takeoff about 300 feet off of departure, the engine coughed, significantly, where it got both of our attention, but this pilot continued on a fairly shallow climb out messing around with the mixture, looking at gauges, etc. There was at least 5 to 10 seconds of wasted time trying to figure out what happened, which in this case there were virtually no changes made other than maybe 1 click of the mixture to lean a bit. Then I thought to myself, why not make an early turn while you still have power (regardless of what type of field you are at). If this was an actual emergency and the engine gave us 5 to 10 seconds of warning while still providing some power, then maybe we would be on a early downwind where the field would be a breeze to make. And if nothing happened and you cut someone off, or you were at a towered airport and got yelled at, so be it.

My point here is that it's likely that the engine is going to give us some sort of an indication at least a few seconds before stopping, and as pilots who say we practice these types of emergencies, we should start thinking about our actions at first sign of trouble rather than trying to figure things out so close to the ground. I'm sure there are many other perspectives and arguments around why we should troubleshoot in those few seconds but I rather be embarrassed at an airport or yelled at than fly into trees or stall.

Just 2 days ago at my home airport i witnessed a nice RV stop in for fuel (purposely leaving out the model). I didn't get a chance to talk to them before they left but they back taxied to RWY 17 behind 2 planes and decided to turn around before getting to the end (in line with the other 2 planes) and wanted to take off before the other two. Shortly after full power up I thought to myself, dang why isn't this plane off the ground yet. Then a few tone changes from the engine, and then nothing..... the plane rolled off the runway in to taxiway Charlie where they had entered the runway for back taxi. Some dialogue with the FBO over COMs and then engine starts back, short taxi and off they went.
Hmm, how lucky was this person to lose the engine on the ground? Cause? Although I'm not 100% sure, I'm fairly certainly fuel selector was in the off position. So many immediate questions came to mind --- Checklist? why not taxi all the way and use all the runway? Why turn off the selector? Ever! Why try to cut off planes taxing in front of you? I can go on. . .

Again, circumstances are never going to be the same every time. This pilot could have been in BIG trouble if they had turned left off of taxi way Charlie to take off southbound without any back taxi. There is plenty of runway to take off towards the south even doing an intersection take off, but there is no doubt in mind that they would have been in the trees if they did that and the engine quite like it did.

I've made intersection takeoffs before and felt guilty afterwards. Thinking to myself, why the heck did I just do that? What if . . . . ? I hope that I continue to learn and make better decisions. Practicing emergencies is great, it's necessary. In my mind many of us make stupid decisions that lead up to the emergency.
 
I can make it back from 400' in the RV-4. Today was calm with no traffic at KIKG. Started at 500', pretty easy although I cheated a bit and didn't count to four. I can probably do it from 300' under the same conditions. Folks at the airport thought I had lost my mind.
 
I can make it back from 400' in the RV-4. Today was calm with no traffic at KIKG. Started at 500', pretty easy although I cheated a bit and didn't count to four. I can probably do it from 300' under the same conditions. Folks at the airport thought I had lost my mind.

I practiced this one day at my airport, my hanger neighbor heard/saw me off the end of the runway low with no power. Poor guy grabbed a fire extinguisher and jumped into his pickup only to see me climbing out opposite direction while he raced toward the runway. He was relieved but not amused.

-Andy
 
Looks easy!

https://youtu.be/trnwzBYvBQg

I find it helpful to be able to listen to Vx AoA and Vy AoA during takeoff. Flaps 20 in the RV-4 is optimum lift/drag trade off. Flaps 10 would be better, but my Armstrong system only has two settings. ONSPEED reference provides optimum glide cues during maneuvering.

Unlike airspeed, AOA isn’t effected by weight, G load, or density altitude. Nice for us less talented stick monkeys that have trouble with cockpit math.

Vac
FlyONSPEED.org
Vac, you make it look easy!
 
The webinar was very eye-opening. The main takeaway I got was the analysis that showed the glide line versus the climb angle. If you are not above that best glide angle on climb out, there’s no way you will make it back to the airport in a turn back....

Scott, the error in this assertion is that the end of the runway is not at the take-off point. Your climb angle started from your take-off point. If the runway is much longer, then you may well be able to reach the runway even if your glide line is below the climb angle.
 
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There are so many variables here that there is really no definitive answer as to weather a turn back to the runway is a preferable solution to landing straight ahead. Practice the return and know that you can do it if you determine it is feasible but don't count on it being the solution in all scenarios. It all depends on where you are in in relation to the runway and altitude you are at, whether you have no or some power etc. Sometimes its just better to crash on the airport property rather than in a swamp, ravine or a bunch of houses. Whatever decision you make don't second guess and hesitate. Fly the airplane to the point of arrival making adjustments as necessary to provide the best outcome possible. Remember that airplanes can be replaced but people can't and generally the insurance company will own it even if its not flyable anymore.
 
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