pastranafan5
Active Member
It's time for me to order my fuselage. I really don't know which model to get. All of my flying has been in tricycle gear, but I'm going to be flying out of a grass strip, and I love how the 7 looks.
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Which one? 7 or 7A?
- Thread starter pastranafan5
- Start date
AndyRV7
Well Known Member
I loved the look of the 7 and wanted to be a tail dragger but I wrestled with the decision and self-doubts for a long time. In the end I bought an RV-7 and am SO HAPPY that I did.
LettersFromFlyoverCountry
Well Known Member
I fly a 7A and I don't have taildragger experience.
The other day I went down to Rushford, MN for their chili feed and have a great time. But they parked me in the grass and when I finally made it to my spot -- through some rough grass -- I looked at just how close to the ground my prop blade is to the ground --- I'd guess about 5".
I taxied back out VERY slowly... one gopher hole and I'm out thousands of dollars.
I'm sure there are a lot of "A" owners who operate off grass strips and are perfectly happy and comfortable doing so, but, man, that's ZERO margin for error I saw on my setup. YMMV.
The other day I went down to Rushford, MN for their chili feed and have a great time. But they parked me in the grass and when I finally made it to my spot -- through some rough grass -- I looked at just how close to the ground my prop blade is to the ground --- I'd guess about 5".
I taxied back out VERY slowly... one gopher hole and I'm out thousands of dollars.
I'm sure there are a lot of "A" owners who operate off grass strips and are perfectly happy and comfortable doing so, but, man, that's ZERO margin for error I saw on my setup. YMMV.
I'm 100% with Dale. Tail dragging will keep you sharp!
Ghost two-six
Member
In May I'll be coming up on 25 years as a CFI. I've done a good amount of BFR's in that time as well. I will say that of those BFR's I've seen a fair share of tricycle drivers that flat out really didn't know how to land an airplane or perhaps just completely forgot. If not for the gear design saving them we'd have been in a bad spot had they landed like that in a conventional gear aircraft.
Now I will say that the folks saying build what you want are absolutely right. There have been plenty of situations wherein I was flying a TW and wishing I was in a trike because in a trike I really wouldn't have to think about it and or work as hard or have even the faintest of doubts.
Thing about a TW is - you learn to feel in your butt EXACTLY when that airplane's gonna quit flying. You can land a trike without really ever knowing that. And believe it or not that "aeronautical proprioception" has helped me flying just about every fixed wing aircraft that I've ever been in - to include ones like the Boeing 777 and 787 which have artificial feel modules simulating what I'm supposed to be feeling.
So in summary - in learning to land a TW well you're gaining skill that's truly valuable. Just one man's opinion YMMV.
Now I will say that the folks saying build what you want are absolutely right. There have been plenty of situations wherein I was flying a TW and wishing I was in a trike because in a trike I really wouldn't have to think about it and or work as hard or have even the faintest of doubts.
Thing about a TW is - you learn to feel in your butt EXACTLY when that airplane's gonna quit flying. You can land a trike without really ever knowing that. And believe it or not that "aeronautical proprioception" has helped me flying just about every fixed wing aircraft that I've ever been in - to include ones like the Boeing 777 and 787 which have artificial feel modules simulating what I'm supposed to be feeling.
So in summary - in learning to land a TW well you're gaining skill that's truly valuable. Just one man's opinion YMMV.
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grubbat
Well Known Member
It depends...
Do you get a cold sweat on the way to the airport wondering if the winds will cooperate? Do you worry that your destination will have a gusting crosswind? Does the thought of digging in a wingtip and cartwheeling down the runway send chills up your spine? Do you like to quickly firewall the throttle without any worry of p-factor and a quartering tailwind? Does your travels begin and end on pavement that is smooth as silk? Does the idea of taxing with limited forward viability give you nightmares? Does the thought of lower insurance premiums make your leg tingly? If so, you may be a nose-wheel driver.
However,
Do you fly off a bunch of gopher-hole grass strips with mud and other nose-grabbing gotchas? Does the thought of a slow-nose-over give you diarrhea? Do you like a challenge every time you fly? Do you want to throw-up every time you see a nose wheel plane? Does a taildragger just look sexy to ya? Do you interpret higher insurance premiums as a badge of honor? Do crosswinds beg to be conquered? Do you want to be a member of a subgroup of aviators who fear not the tail wheel? If so, enter into the tail wheel domain.
Seriously, its really comes down to you and your goals. Either one will give you lots of fun and enjoyment.
Good luck in your search!
cj
Do you get a cold sweat on the way to the airport wondering if the winds will cooperate? Do you worry that your destination will have a gusting crosswind? Does the thought of digging in a wingtip and cartwheeling down the runway send chills up your spine? Do you like to quickly firewall the throttle without any worry of p-factor and a quartering tailwind? Does your travels begin and end on pavement that is smooth as silk? Does the idea of taxing with limited forward viability give you nightmares? Does the thought of lower insurance premiums make your leg tingly? If so, you may be a nose-wheel driver.
However,
Do you fly off a bunch of gopher-hole grass strips with mud and other nose-grabbing gotchas? Does the thought of a slow-nose-over give you diarrhea? Do you like a challenge every time you fly? Do you want to throw-up every time you see a nose wheel plane? Does a taildragger just look sexy to ya? Do you interpret higher insurance premiums as a badge of honor? Do crosswinds beg to be conquered? Do you want to be a member of a subgroup of aviators who fear not the tail wheel? If so, enter into the tail wheel domain.
Seriously, its really comes down to you and your goals. Either one will give you lots of fun and enjoyment.
Good luck in your search!
cj
Basically, I made the same choice for the same reason. My wife had a few 'requests' (meaning 'requirements') for our aircraft choice: Things like no yellow, wanted to sit beside me, and warm buns (aka seat heaters).
Then she hit me with just one more 'request': No surprises. Meaning, as much as possible, she wanted me to build out any propensity for the airplane to catch me by surprise during the flight.
"Hmmmmm," thought I. A ground loop counts as a surprise, so an RV-7A it is.
Now, I know, this is a very difficult aircraft to ground-loop, but it certainly has happened. And if there's a way to do it, I'm certain I could blunder my way into finding it. That perspective alone has made me quite comfortable with my -7A decision.
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longranger
Well Known Member
I'd bet that nose overs are rather surprising too. I'd rather the airplane go around the vertical axis unexpectedly than the lateral one, but that's just me. The best advice in this whole thread or the many, many others just like it, is to build/buy what you want, not what someone else wants.
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roadrunner20
Well Known Member
I too liked the look of the 7 & wrestled with it. Then, I built the A model.
5 years later, I changed it to the TW & am very happy with the results.
I had 0 TW time, but learned.
comfortcat
Well Known Member
funny advice?
Lots of advice to "Build What you want"
But what do you want? How do you know what you want?
So my advice is to get a bunch of tail wheel time. Not expensive and actually kinda fun. Cub, Aeronca, Citabria, that kind of thing. Actually, I'd get my TW endorsement.
THEN decide.
I have C-140, C-170, Citabria and Decathalon time, but I'm building a 9A.
Go figure.
CC
Lots of advice to "Build What you want"
But what do you want? How do you know what you want?
So my advice is to get a bunch of tail wheel time. Not expensive and actually kinda fun. Cub, Aeronca, Citabria, that kind of thing. Actually, I'd get my TW endorsement.
THEN decide.
I have C-140, C-170, Citabria and Decathalon time, but I'm building a 9A.
Go figure.
CC
curtis
Well Known Member
I have seen a few tailwheel RVs that have gone over on there back recently, it is not just the A models. The one tailwheel recently in Kansas that was landing on a grass strip was fatal.
maniago
Well Known Member
TW can be expensive
I'm about half way through TW endorsement, and if money is a pinchy subject, then maybe go with an A model. When done, it'll be about 2k to get my endorsement in a Decathalon. And of course thats just the endo - insurance company probably wants some other TW time from you as well; in my case, Pitts time as well. Add another 2k min. Just food for thought....
I'm about half way through TW endorsement, and if money is a pinchy subject, then maybe go with an A model. When done, it'll be about 2k to get my endorsement in a Decathalon. And of course thats just the endo - insurance company probably wants some other TW time from you as well; in my case, Pitts time as well. Add another 2k min. Just food for thought....
Veetail88
Well Known Member
Just one more data point.
I hadn't flown in years and had 0 tail-wheel time, but built an 8 because "that's what I wanted to build".
4 hours in an RV-9, another 12 or so in a Decathlon, 4 more in an RV-6 and I found myself current, touting a tail-wheel endorsement and ready to fly my 8. YMMV.
Sure it cost a few bucks, but doesn't everything that's any fun at all?
The moral of the story? Thou shalt not fear the tail-wheel!
If you have the drive and the dough to build an airplane, you'll have what it takes to get the training you'll need to safely operate your dream plane.
I hadn't flown in years and had 0 tail-wheel time, but built an 8 because "that's what I wanted to build".
4 hours in an RV-9, another 12 or so in a Decathlon, 4 more in an RV-6 and I found myself current, touting a tail-wheel endorsement and ready to fly my 8. YMMV.
Sure it cost a few bucks, but doesn't everything that's any fun at all?
The moral of the story? Thou shalt not fear the tail-wheel!
If you have the drive and the dough to build an airplane, you'll have what it takes to get the training you'll need to safely operate your dream plane.
n82rb
Well Known Member
like everyone says, build what you want, the fear of tailwheels is over blown. especially for an RV.
If your insurance company wanted pitts time to insure an RV you need a new insurance company. landing a pitts vs an RV is like comparing a mack truck to a corvette. two totally different worlds.
bob burns
rv-4 N82RB
If your insurance company wanted pitts time to insure an RV you need a new insurance company. landing a pitts vs an RV is like comparing a mack truck to a corvette. two totally different worlds.
bob burns
rv-4 N82RB
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wjb
Well Known Member
Mine said the same thing, sorta! Put the little wheel it the back. Happy wife; happy life! (I don't think our better halves will be great friends, Larry!)
Also, +1 on the TW endorsement .. a Citabria is a joy to fly and it feels sooooo good to stick a perfect wheelie.
tkirk
Active Member
During the build phase, I too, worried about which model to build. I loved the TD, but was nervous about the perceived "handling characteristics". However.....I think you should build the model you want, and stop worrying about handling, grass strips, etc. The RV is a GREAT airplane, and either model serves most missions well. In the long run, learning TD vs training wheel is a non issue. I had about 100 hours total PIC time and 10 hour TD when I finished my 7. Get good transition training when it is time for the first flight ( I used Alex D.), and you wont look back. I love everything about the 7, and I am so glad I picked the model I wanted!
I currently fly a C150 and rent C172's and a J5 cub. Interestingly, the Cub's prop is about 30 years old, but is almost pristine even though it routinely lands on grass strips. The 172's have dings in the props that have been repaired and even the 150, that is taken very well care of, has some dings.
In the end, I a building a 9 (no "A").
YMMv, HTH.
Tim
In the end, I a building a 9 (no "A").
YMMv, HTH.
Tim
agirard7a
Well Known Member
Tail or nose?
This is very well stated. I'm building an A and flying a tail wheel.
What I am still learning in the tail wheel, is not to land the plane
But let it land when it wants to. Holding just off the runway until it finally bleeds off enough speed and touchs down like butter. Anytime I try to land the plane
On my own, it bounces either the mains or sometimes the tail. Of course speed over the numbers is a direct correlation on how far the plane will glide down the runway before touch down. Cross winds have not been an issue.
Having learned how the tail dragger performs, I believe will help me tremendously in a nose wheel. Letting the plane bleed off speed before it touchs down and holding the stick back to keep the nose off as long as possible is the key. As many people have stated, the nose wheel is only for slow taxiing and parking.
Personally I like the look of the tail dragger. But there is no doubt a great advantage of visability on the ground with the A model. The problem I believe with the A model is some land them like a Cessna or Piper tri gear and force it down to the runway before it's ready to land on its own. You can't do this with these A models.
This is very well stated. I'm building an A and flying a tail wheel.
What I am still learning in the tail wheel, is not to land the plane
But let it land when it wants to. Holding just off the runway until it finally bleeds off enough speed and touchs down like butter. Anytime I try to land the plane
On my own, it bounces either the mains or sometimes the tail. Of course speed over the numbers is a direct correlation on how far the plane will glide down the runway before touch down. Cross winds have not been an issue.
Having learned how the tail dragger performs, I believe will help me tremendously in a nose wheel. Letting the plane bleed off speed before it touchs down and holding the stick back to keep the nose off as long as possible is the key. As many people have stated, the nose wheel is only for slow taxiing and parking.
Personally I like the look of the tail dragger. But there is no doubt a great advantage of visability on the ground with the A model. The problem I believe with the A model is some land them like a Cessna or Piper tri gear and force it down to the runway before it's ready to land on its own. You can't do this with these A models.
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DanBaier
Well Known Member
More "it depends."
Properly flown, it seems to me handling a 7A is much like a 7 on the landings. In a 7A, ideally, you put the main gear on and coast out quite a way with the nose wheel off - rudder skills required (albeit not as much necessary in 7A as 7). The notion that somehow in the 7 it is easier to sense the point of a full stall landing doesn't quite match my experience. (Either the 7 or the 7A rewards the pilot with good airspeed control and rudder skills with a good result.)
Another factor might be the choice of motor. From the aircraft I've flown, if it has a parallel valve Lyc, fine. If it has an angle valve Lyc, it might have a tendency to feel a little nose-heavy. This could give an impression that the 7A versus the 7 is more difficult (granted, with some planning relative to W&B during the build, much of that should be something that can be neutralized).
If you had good TW training, the shift from 7A to 7 should really nothing to be deeply concerned about.
There are pros and cons to both the 7A and the 7. It is important to note 7s are not immune from flip-over accidents - but that they flip over for different reasons. (Which ever choice you might make, you should google for the NASA study on the RV nose gear and go through that carefully.)
Dan
Properly flown, it seems to me handling a 7A is much like a 7 on the landings. In a 7A, ideally, you put the main gear on and coast out quite a way with the nose wheel off - rudder skills required (albeit not as much necessary in 7A as 7). The notion that somehow in the 7 it is easier to sense the point of a full stall landing doesn't quite match my experience. (Either the 7 or the 7A rewards the pilot with good airspeed control and rudder skills with a good result.)
Another factor might be the choice of motor. From the aircraft I've flown, if it has a parallel valve Lyc, fine. If it has an angle valve Lyc, it might have a tendency to feel a little nose-heavy. This could give an impression that the 7A versus the 7 is more difficult (granted, with some planning relative to W&B during the build, much of that should be something that can be neutralized).
If you had good TW training, the shift from 7A to 7 should really nothing to be deeply concerned about.
There are pros and cons to both the 7A and the 7. It is important to note 7s are not immune from flip-over accidents - but that they flip over for different reasons. (Which ever choice you might make, you should google for the NASA study on the RV nose gear and go through that carefully.)
Dan
The second best advice in this thread is build what you want....
The very best advice is to get at least a couple of hours of dual instruction in a tail dragger so that you can make a decision of whether you think you like the challenge or not.
I know of numerous heart breaking stories where people built the RV they thought they wanted and then after completing it found that a tail dragger just wasn't for them.
The very best advice is to get at least a couple of hours of dual instruction in a tail dragger so that you can make a decision of whether you think you like the challenge or not.
I know of numerous heart breaking stories where people built the RV they thought they wanted and then after completing it found that a tail dragger just wasn't for them.
agirard7a
Well Known Member
Nose or taip
My thought was to change my nose wheel to a tail wheel
on my 9a now having experience in a TW. Also for my fear
Of flipping over in a grass strip with the A model. I asked the advise of the famous Russian on this subject who has a ton of experience on grass strips with
His 9a. His comment is he would dare take his nose wheel plane
where many TW aircraft dare not go. He has obviously developed skills
to do so. Personally if I was flying into grass strips often I would feel safer
With well developed skills of three point landing a TW minimizing ground speed.
My thought was to change my nose wheel to a tail wheel
on my 9a now having experience in a TW. Also for my fear
Of flipping over in a grass strip with the A model. I asked the advise of the famous Russian on this subject who has a ton of experience on grass strips with
His 9a. His comment is he would dare take his nose wheel plane
where many TW aircraft dare not go. He has obviously developed skills
to do so. Personally if I was flying into grass strips often I would feel safer
With well developed skills of three point landing a TW minimizing ground speed.
rbibb
Well Known Member
Do you really need us to tell you the answer?
If it helps you justify doing what you know you want to do already alright:
Build the taildragger, its the plane you want.
As George Patton used to quote Frederick the Great (IIRC) "never take counsel of your fears".
[email protected]
Well Known Member
Don't fear the transition...
There are many small reasons to pile up that will support any choice that you want. If you want a tail dragger... don't fear the transition. It will be something new and fun.
There are many small reasons to pile up that will support any choice that you want. If you want a tail dragger... don't fear the transition. It will be something new and fun.
RV7 To Go
Well Known Member
7 or 7A
I too wrestled with that decision 4 yrs ago when I bought my 7 kit. Bought the one I liked the best....almost...wanted an 8 but the wife was better with a side by side so I got my second choice.
I had no dragger time so a year ago I thought it might be a good idea to learn to fly one since I was building one. Took about 20 hrs in a Supercub followed by 10 in a Citabria. I then flew commercial to Alberta to pick up my new to me 4 to fly while I was building. I now have 125 hrs on the 4 and love the tail dragger. Most of my flying is from asphalt which certainly keeps you alert on TO and landing, especially in a crosswind.
I would suggest you do as others have suggested and get your TW rating before making the decision. Then you can truly buy the one you want.
Good luck and enjoy!
Al
I too wrestled with that decision 4 yrs ago when I bought my 7 kit. Bought the one I liked the best....almost...wanted an 8 but the wife was better with a side by side so I got my second choice.
I had no dragger time so a year ago I thought it might be a good idea to learn to fly one since I was building one. Took about 20 hrs in a Supercub followed by 10 in a Citabria. I then flew commercial to Alberta to pick up my new to me 4 to fly while I was building. I now have 125 hrs on the 4 and love the tail dragger. Most of my flying is from asphalt which certainly keeps you alert on TO and landing, especially in a crosswind.
I would suggest you do as others have suggested and get your TW rating before making the decision. Then you can truly buy the one you want.
Good luck and enjoy!
Al
ArVeeNiner
Well Known Member
I have most of my flying hours in a taildragger (Aeronca Sedan). Never had any difficulty with it. I built a 9A for something different, among other reasons. I love it! It practically lands itself! I'm sure the 7/7A is also as easy to land as a 9/9A. Hopefully I won't lose my taildragger skills.
Now, pushing it backwards and steering it is sometimes challenging!
Now, pushing it backwards and steering it is sometimes challenging!
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pastranafan5
Active Member
Thanks for the responses everybody. No I don't need anybody to tell me what I want, and if I knew which one I wanted I would have ordered it already. What I wanted was people's thoughts and opinions to help me think about in ways that I may have missed. Again, thanks everybody.
