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NEW ECi Cylinder AD - Bummer!!!!

Which should...

lostpilot28 said:
I hear what you're saying, Gil. I was only stating that I believe ECI has a great product, and my 2 seperate experiences with both ECI and AERO were very good. It does sound like a PR nightmare for ECI, but reading AERO's letter doesn't make me doubt the quality of their product.
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...probably worry other distributors more than proof of poor quality parts...

I too have dealt with both and use ECI parts - it's a matter of how ECI treats their distributor chain...

What would you think if you were selling ECI parts?
 
az_gila said:
...probably worry other distributors more than proof of poor quality parts...

I too have dealt with both and use ECI parts - it's a matter of how ECI treats their distributor chain...

What would you think if you were selling ECI parts?
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I agree that it's certainly not good customer service on ECI's part. If AERO's letter is telling it like it happened, then that's a pretty crappy thing for ECI to do.
 
Any updates

There was a new thread started by 'Gasman' a few days ago asking this same question but no one replied so I thought I would try this thread.
What is the average turn around time are you experiencing for getting the re-work done on the ECI cylinders?
When I phoned them I had 75 hrs on the engine I was told to keep flying and do a compression check every 50 hrs. The reason I believe was because they were so backed up with returns.
What are you guys experiencing now?
 
I don't know about now, I sent mine in on Feb 5th (arrived at ECi on Feb 10th). I did not hear from them until 3/18 when the rework order was logged in. On April 21 they have finished 3 sets of cylinders and promised to finish the rest 63 sets by May 15th (news release posted on VAF). Soon after I got a phone call telling me that all four of my Group A cylinders were "bad" and they are sending four new ones to me free of charge. I received them on May 6th.

I was surprised by two things: 1. so few cylinders were sent in for rework (3+63). 2. it took so long for them to begin the process and so quick to finish them all. I was not pleased for the down time (three months) yet am happy that I have all four new cylinders.
 
Based on the Amy laboda's article in the August issue of Kitplanes, it looks like the alternate means of compliance ECI was going with is not legal in FAA's view - even for experimental aircraft. At least not until FAA approves the AMOC, and who knows how long that will take. Hope ECI isn't driven into bankruptcy by having to replace all these cylinders.

Erich
 
There may be problems with their approach...

erich weaver said:
Based on the Amy laboda's article in the August issue of Kitplanes, it looks like the alternate means of compliance ECI was going with is not legal in FAA's view - even for experimental aircraft. At least not until FAA approves the AMOC, and who knows how long that will take. Hope ECI isn't driven into bankruptcy by having to replace all these cylinders.

Erich
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This came from an e-mail from an engine rebuilder when it was first announced. I won't give names since it hasn't been cleared with the author, but the points seem reasonable...

The end result of the barrels not being correctly clocked is that the
intake tubes and exhaust will not fit and the push rods and their
shrouds will not perpendicular with the camshaft. This problem comes
about as a result of changing the cylinders manufacturing order of
mechanical operations. Normally new barrels are screwed into the heads
to a specific torque and THEN the flange of the cylinder is drilled for
the mounting studs and further machined which assures the correct
clocking of the barrel to the head when everything is screwed together
tightly.

In order to do the intended AMOC they will be measuring the male threads on
an old barrel that has its flange already drilled and machined and the
female threads in the cylinder head. They then select a barrel with threads
the correct size to allow a proper interference fit with the female threads
in the barrel. During this operation the head must be screwed in at a
specified torque and at the same time have the parts correctly clocked in
relationship to on another when its all done, GOOD LUCK! Any mistake in the
selection of barrel to be matched with the head or miss clocking of the head
on the barrel makes for a piece of junk.
 
ECI

I don't have all the details about the AERO/ECI feud. What I do know however(lawyers getting involved) has caused me to buy engine parts from sources other than AERO. My current favorite is Dart Aircraft in Waco, TX. Excellent service and prices. I just don't think that ECI has the deep pockets to handle the cylinder debacle in a more timely manner. A reminder about Lycoming-they have had more than their share of problems over the years including, like Continental, some major crankshaft problems. Lycoming is strictly a sales/service organization. ALL Lycoming parts are made elsewhere. I would hope that most of ECI's parts are made inhouse and that would cause me to favor ECI. I personally have no problem with ECI parts.
 
ECI Rocks

They seem to have a different policy for outside US. I boaght new cylinders on my own before I took the engine apart so I would have minimal down time.

When it came time to notify them they just said, send photos of the old cylinders with the rockers arms destroyed and a copy of the receipt I paid for the new cylinders and they would send a refund ck to me, which they did.

Rick from Canada
 
Group A Cylinders

I just found out that I have four group A cylinders on my O-320. Although I trust the cylinders, I don't like the idea of compression tests every 50 hours.

Has anyone had thier group A cylinders reworked? Did this ever get approved as AMOC? I notice that thier MSB 09-3 (cylinder rework) is now gone from the website.

If not rework, has anyone gotten replacements or discounts on new cylinders? Would appreciate any insight before I call ECI next week.
 
So I have a cylinder that does not have P/N AEL65102, but has a S/N in the "B" group.

I have been told by ECI that the cylinder (A titan EXP cylinder), is not recalled and therefor not eligible for replacement.

They are offering to rework the cylinder as per their proposed AMOC at no charge.

I note that the continental cylinders in this range also have an AD against them.

Any opinions on whether I should go for the proposed AMOC rework, buy a replacement outright or since the cylinder does not have a AD assume there is no problem?
 
I am not aware of anyone who has actually had the AMOC completed posting information regarding their success/satisfaction etc. It appears that all Group B cylinders are now being replaced with new ones, regardless of whether the aircraft is experimental or not - see Amy Laboda's article in Kitplanes a month or two back on this issue.

I am unwilling to have the AMOC completed on my Group A cylinders when FAA has not approved it. What would I do if the FAA decides to disallow it? For now, I will live with 50 hr inspections. It doesnt take long, and the cowl is off anyway at one time or another over that interval. Others have idnicated they are not comfortable with this and are just sucking it up and purchasing new, but discounted cylinders. Pick your poison.

erich
 
The issue is the P/N is not AEL65102 and therefore not officially part of the AD, tho it has a cylinder serial number is in the "B" range, it is a titan EXP tapered fin cylinder.

I believe from the Kitplanes article and the AD dated 2009-12-26 that any P/N AEL65102 cylinder whether installed on a certified or experiemental engines are covered by the AD.

Was wondering if there is any feeling on a NON AEL65102 otherwise in range of the AD.

Feels like i'm in limbo. :p
 
Since the EXP cylinders are experimental, would the FAA even issue an AD? I would hope they would...
 
61DX said:
Since the EXP cylinders are experimental, would the FAA even issue an AD? I would hope they would...
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I hope they don't because if they do, then they will start issuing AD's on all Experimental aircraft and that could be a real mixed bag, mostly bad. JMHO
 
Group A vs Group B

Does anyone out there know what the difference is between the Group A cylinders & Group B?

Why is there going to be AMOC to fix the Group A's but not the Group B's, which have to be removed & never repaired per the AD.
 
Well, it's been a couple of years since this thread about the bad ECi cylinders was started.
For myself, I had four 'B' cylinders that I returned to ECi to be "reworked". However, I'm not flying yet...but close. :eek:

Anyone have any performance reports that they would want to share regarding the ECi Group A /B cylinders?
 
TX7A said:
Anyone have any performance reports that they would want to share regarding the ECi Group A /B cylinders?
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Well this has nothing to do with the subject of the AD (cylinder heads leaking/popping off the barrel), but with 1450 hours on my Group A's, I have pulled them off for increasing oil consumption, and am going to replace the jugs becasue it is the simplest option.

Way back many years ago, when you'd have a bad cylinder (for any reason), you got it repaired. Cylinders were routinely overhauled, cracks welded, etc. Now the new prices are low enough (about a Grand per jug, "loaded"),that it's sort of like "why fool around"....put a new stud on and fly in peace.

Paul
 
No problems with my group As to date; I plan on flying with them until there is a good reason not to. If anyone has any documentation that there are more failures in Group A than cylinders that are completely outside of the AD, I would like to hear about it

I don't believe the AMOC for Group B was ever approved by the FAA.

Erich
 
erich weaver said:
No problems with my group As to date; I plan on flying with them until there is a good reason not to. If anyone has any documentation that there are more failures in Group A than cylinders that are completely outside of the AD, I would like to hear about it

I don't believe the AMOC for Group B was ever approved by the FAA.

Erich
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Nope. That went down the tubes, and Tanya is still Pissed about it :). Tanya has some Group A and Group B cylinders for sale...
 
Scott is 100% right about the AMOC - I confirmed it yesterday on the phone with ECI - it was never approved. The four new cylinders I have en route are Lycomings.... which is what our new engine on the RV-3 was built with as well.

I was really pleased about a decade ago when ECI came on the scene and gave us an alternative to Lycoming parts. With no competition, Lycoming quality control had deteriorated to "abysmal". many of us in the GA world switched over to ECI and Superior parts. Lo and behold, the laws of economics were not lost on Lycoming, and they responded to the loss of market share by getting their products straight again.

Every manufacturer has problems now and again. How they respond to those problem is important. I'll buy parts from whomever is doing the best job at the time!

Paul
 
scard said:
Nope. That went down the tubes, and Tanya is still Pissed about it :). Tanya has some Group A and Group B cylinders for sale...
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When I went down to ECi a year ago, they felt 'certain' that they would get the AMOC. I returned my four 'B' cylinders & got back two of different serial numbers and two of the same serial numbers that I presume were "reworked". I was feeling 'okay' about the deal. But now, hearing that the AMOC wasn't approved, I'm starting to feel a little like Tanya. I may have to re-think this whole me$$. What next??!!!
 
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TX7A said:
I returned my four 'B' cylinders & got back two of different serial numbers and two of the same serial numbers that I presume were "reworked". I was feeling 'okay' about the deal. But now, hearing that the AMOC wan't approved, I'm starting to feel a little like Tanya. I may have to re-think this whole me$$. What next??!!!
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Me thinks you should be asking ECI that. I suspect they will do something for you on the Group B cylinders once you make it clear you are not satisfied and dont intend on dropping it. Let us know how it goes.

erich

P.S. You will want to check out the August 2010 Kitplanes article by Amy Laboda for some clues on how to negotiate with ECI
 
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NTSB: Action needed on ECi cylinders

Posted by GAN two days ago:

GAN said:
The National Transportation Safety Board is recommending that the FAA require repetitive inspection of some cylinder assemblies on Teledyne Continental Motors Model 520 and 540 engines not covered by existing airworthiness directives issued following engine failures, according to a report at AOPA.org.

The report quotes the Feb. 24 safety recommendation, noting the NTSB said it wants the FAA to “require repetitive inspection of Engine Components, Inc. cylinder assemblies produced between May 2003 and October 2009 (serial numbers 7709 through 52884) installed on Teledyne Continental Motors model 520 and 550 engines and removal of these cylinder assemblies once they reach the engine manufacturer’s recommended normal time (hours) in service between overhauls.”
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While not Lycoming engines, it doesn't look good for ECi.
 
I started doing compression checks on my group B's..then forgot all about this issue until i read this thread.

I'm getting close to doing the wobble test so i might as well do another compression test at that time.

Has anyone actually had a failure of a group B cylinder?????
 
I did 4 Group B cylinders almost exactly 1 year ago. I had about 250hr total time on the engine when I filed the warranty claim.

I felt like ECI treated me very well. They gave me the option of sending my cylinders in first and paying the amount of my pro-rata share when the sent my the replacement or paying full price up front and getting a refund of the amount above the pro-rata charge. I wanted to do the work with as little down time as possible, therefore, I opted to pay for 4 new cylinders upfront. This way, I was able to remove and re-install the new cylinders on the same day.

They gave me an allowance for labor, which brought my total out-of-pocket cost down to about $430 for all 4 cylinders. It did take them the full amount of time they told me it might to process the refund (about 10-12 weeks) but in the end, I did get refund.
 
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Well I just wrote to Mattituck to see if they have the serial numbers on my cylinders.. I will see what ECI are willing to do for me..Engine was first run in 2006 with about 500 hours on them now.

Not looking forward to the answer but I will be happy to be surprised. I think from memory mine were all group B cylinders.

Groan!
 
I have no personal experience removing cylinders, however....

Mike Busch is adamant that removal of multiple cylinders simultaneously is an extremely invasive procedure that can have very undesirable results if not done correctly. This is due to relieving of compression on the case when the the through-bolts on the cylinders are removed. I believe the concern may be regarding the potential for subseqeunt misaligment with the crankshaft berings when the new cylinders are installed, but I am not 100% sure on this. While Mike is a highly respected A&P, he says he will not do this procedure himself on his own plane, let alone someone elses. He recommends it only be done by well-qualified shops experienced in building engines.

Dont mean to pour doom and gloom on anyone, just passing along his opinion. Might be worth a few calls to engine shops to see what they say as well.

erich
 
Looks like my A&P buddy who was going to help me with the wobble test maybe helping in a different way..:)
 
erich weaver said:
I have no personal experience removing cylinders, however....

Mike Busch is adamant that removal of multiple cylinders simultaneously is an extremely invasive procedure that can have very undesirable results if not done correctly. This is due to relieving of compression on the case when the the through-bolts on the cylinders are removed. I believe the concern may be regarding the potential for subseqeunt misaligment with the crankshaft berings when the new cylinders are installed, but I am not 100% sure on this. While Mike is a highly respected A&P, he says he will not do this procedure himself on his own plane, let alone someone elses. He recommends it only be done by well-qualified shops experienced in building engines.

Dont mean to pour doom and gloom on anyone, just passing along his opinion. Might be worth a few calls to engine shops to see what they say as well.

erich
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Sounds like another old wives tale to me. It is done everyday in the field.
I say that if what he says is true then the same thing would happen assembling the engine the first time.
 
FWIW

Don Jones said:
Originally Posted by erich weaver

I have no personal experience removing cylinders, however....

Mike Busch is adamant that removal of multiple cylinders simultaneously is an extremely invasive procedure that can have very undesirable results if not done correctly. This is due to relieving of compression on the case when the the through-bolts on the cylinders are removed. I believe the concern may be regarding the potential for subseqeunt misaligment with the crankshaft berings when the new cylinders are installed, but I am not 100% sure on this. While Mike is a highly respected A&P, he says he will not do this procedure himself on his own plane, let alone someone elses. He recommends it only be done by well-qualified shops experienced in building engines.

Dont mean to pour doom and gloom on anyone, just passing along his opinion. Might be worth a few calls to engine shops to see what they say as well.

---------

Sounds like another old wives tale to me. It is done everyday in the field.
I say that if what he says is true then the same thing would happen assembling the engine the first time.
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They make a point of covering this exact situation at the Lycoming piston engine school - they don't want you rotating the crankshaft unless the cylinder through bolts (thus the case & bearings) are torqued to spec.

What's supposed to happen if you remove cylinders is to install plates in their place and then torque to spec to preserve the crush on the bearings. Or, so they teach it...

Dan
 
DanBaier said:
They make a point of covering this exact situation at the Lycoming piston engine school - they don't want you rotating the crankshaft unless the cylinder through bolts (thus the case & bearings) are torqued to spec.

What's supposed to happen if you remove cylinders is to install plates in their place and then torque to spec to preserve the crush on the bearings. Or, so they teach it...
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Well imagine that....Mike Busch may just know what he is talking about after all.

The most likely time for engine failure is NOT when you reach TBO and beyond. It is when your engine is brand new or when it has been recently overhauled or had major work done. Think long and hard before cylinders are replaced and make sure the reward outweighs the risk.

Erich
 
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DanBaier said:
What's supposed to happen if you remove cylinders is to install plates in their place and then torque to spec to preserve the crush on the bearings. Or, so they teach it...
Dan
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They even suggested cutting the base off an old cylinder if you didn't have access to the 'plates'.
 
jdeas said:
They even suggested cutting the base off an old cylinder if you didn't have access to the 'plates'.
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What's the service bulletin number? Would be handy for anyone that is looking for the specific reference. I have seen cylinders pulled in a lot of different ways!
 
Ironflight said:
What's the service bulletin number? Would be handy for anyone that is looking for the specific reference. I have seen cylinders pulled in a lot of different ways!
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Paul,

I assume your question was meant for me. I apologize, I don?t recall the exact reference material from Lycoming. I just shut my hangar and -8 down for the season (at least until Fall). My reference material is in the hangar. Tomorrow we start our driving trek to California.

I believe we gleaned the information from the Lycoming Direct Drive Engine Overhaul Manual or from one of the Service Bulletins, Letters, or Instructions. Perhaps Mel has the correct reference source. There was also specific instructions on the proper cylinder installation hold-down nut tightening sequence for each cylinder.

Regards,
 
DAGO said:
Paul,

I assume your question was meant for me. I apologize, I don?t recall the exact reference material from Lycoming. I just shut my hangar and -8 down for the season (at least until Fall). My reference material is in the hangar. Tomorrow we start our driving trek to California.

I believe we gleaned the information from the Lycoming Direct Drive Engine Overhaul Manual or from one of the Service Bulletins, Letters, or Instructions. Perhaps Mel has the correct reference source. There was also specific instructions on the proper cylinder installation hold-down nut tightening sequence for each cylinder.

Regards,
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Thanks Dago - it was more of a general question for those that posted of this practice.

I think I actually found a good reference - Lycoming SB 1029D tells you how to torque the case together without having cylinders installed using plates to simulate the cylinder flanges. (I used large fender washers and washer stacks, similar to the post earlier in this thread).

It doesn't REALLy tell you that you have to do it when you pull the jugs off - it does say that you should do this when assembling the engine if you have pulled all four jugs. of course, you are going to have to back the torque off and remove the nuts when it is time to put the jugs back on - but you can do this in pairs (front, then back).

Interestingly enough, I couldn't find a reference to this practice, or 1029D, in the Overhaul Manual - mine might be a little out of date (last revision 2002).

I do remember, however, that when I was at Matituck watching them build my engine, how John showed me that with the case bolts loose, nothing turned smotthly or well. Then he torqued it all up (without jugs), and the crank turned smooth as silk. Very impressive demonstration!

Paul
 
Osh

Ironflight said:
What's the service bulletin number? Would be handy for anyone that is looking for the specific reference. I have seen cylinders pulled in a lot of different ways!
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Never saw a bulletin but it was part of lycoming's Osh presentation two years in a row.
 
Ironflight said:
Every manufacturer has problems now and again. How they respond to those problem is important. I'll buy parts from whomever is doing the best job at the time!

Paul
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RE: My four never-run, "B" cylinders that had previously been 'reworked' by ECi.
3/7 - Called ECi about my cylinders.
3/8 - Completed warranty application
3/9 - Got an RMA via email
3/13 - Notified by ECi that new cylinders were shipped
3/16 - New cylinders arrived at the house
Change-out expected within the next few days.
Cost to me: shipping the 'B' cylinders back to ECi, paying A/P friend to change out cylinders (twice!)
 
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