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RV10 ER Tanks

Dual CiES senders save the day

Another RV-10ER takes to the skies. No issues with the tanks, but discovered a problem with my duplex fuel valve. The issue was probably there before, but I had not flown enough in Phase I and only had a single sender in the standard tanks - so the problem was not really noticeable.

I flew the airplane for an hour on the left tank only and discovered fuel was burning equally from both tanks. After landing, I filled the left tank and within 45 minutes of sitting on the ground, both tanks had equalized. I verified this with the gauges and visually with a dipstick.

So the Condition Inspection started two weeks early, the fuel valve is off to the UK and I'm awaiting a replacement.

Definitely a want, not a need, but it's nice to have very accurate fuel readings from zero to full.

 
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Congrats Krea!
Faulty valve is an unusual failure.
Good advertising for accurate gauges!
Cheers

Thanks Richard. Your posts were very helpful and a motivation to get this large, but straightforward project done. Your modification of the SW floats will definitely help others who want full range fuel quantity, but not the expense of the CiES senders.

Valve manufacturer confirmed defective valve today. They could not explain the failure, though. New valve is on the way, so hopefully back in the air soon.

Again, kudos to Ken Krueger for an outstanding kit with superb instructions. Highly recommended for anyone building a 10 or 14.
 
Thanks Richard. Your posts were very helpful and a motivation to get this large, but straightforward project done. Your modification of the SW floats will definitely help others who want full range fuel quantity, but not the expense of the CiES senders.

Valve manufacturer confirmed defective valve today. They could not explain the failure, though. New valve is on the way, so hopefully back in the air soon.

Again, kudos to Ken Krueger for an outstanding kit with superb instructions. Highly recommended for anyone building a 10 or 14.

Thanks Krea.
I feel like I’ve maybe paid back 2% of all the help I’ve received here over the last 20y! Such an amazing resource.

Ken has done a fantastic job.
My hangar mate is now doing his 10 ER tanks as well.

Now all I need to do is find a home for my standard tanks.
Half tempted to chop them down and install them outboard.

Cheers.
 
Haha. Tongue in cheek (for now)
It’s a shame to see then gathering dust though.

I really thought there would be more demand for them but it seems that everyone I know downunder with a 14 or a 10 under construction (and quite a few completed airframes) are going ER.
Not a good sign for the used tank market.
 
Haha. Tongue in cheek (for now)
It’s a shame to see then gathering dust though.

I really thought there would be more demand for them but it seems that everyone I know downunder with a 14 or a 10 under construction (and quite a few completed airframes) are going ER.
Not a good sign for the used tank market.

I’m in the same boat. The first few ER builders at Synergy Air South sold their tanks and got a pretty good return, now the tanks are piling up unsold.

I’m trying to be patient, but I’m concerned that the price for small tanks will plummet.
 
Tank market values, RV-10

Normally for kits we "hope" to receive what the current Vans pricing is even if one completes 50 to 90%. My GUESS is the parts if deleted we might get $ 500.00 credit for it and if buying the parts separately $ 1,000.00. (I didn't look up pricing but if someone knows feel free to chime in). Why would one buy tanks for $ 2,500 and higher when I could buy the parts for $ 1,000 from Vans or $ 2,500 for ER tanks from SD? (I don't know the current pricing for the SD tanks) About a year ago I looked at completed (And tested tanks) that the builder wanted $ 3,000.00 for and I passed. With all the issues around QB tanks I wanted to have a plan B. Local builder was going to delete his tanks and we agreed he would keep, and I would pay him $ 700.00.
 
Normally for kits we "hope" to receive what the current Vans pricing is even if one completes 50 to 90%. My GUESS is the parts if deleted we might get $ 500.00 credit for it and if buying the parts separately $ 1,000.00. (I didn't look up pricing but if someone knows feel free to chime in). Why would one buy tanks for $ 2,500 and higher when I could buy the parts for $ 1,000 from Vans or $ 2,500 for ER tanks from SD? (I don't know the current pricing for the SD tanks) About a year ago I looked at completed (And tested tanks) that the builder wanted $ 3,000.00 for and I passed. With all the issues around QB tanks I wanted to have a plan B. Local builder was going to delete his tanks and we agreed he would keep, and I would pay him $ 700.00.

Because some people are willing to pay that to avoid dealing with pro seal and others didn’t build their plane and don’t have the tools or the skills - so ready made tanks command a premium. I know Synergy Air South has built several sets of tanks for customers that didn’t have the time or the desire to build them on their own. I can assure you that cost more than $2500.
 
Pro tank building has been around the whole time I’ve been involved with RVs.
Theres always been a steady stream of builders willing to pay someone to build tanks.

There’s a local engineer here that builds heaps of them.
They cost way more than $2500 a set.

The cheapest way you’re getting a tank built for you is to buy a QB wing.
That’s about 10k more than the kit and I’m going to estimate that the tanks are 25% of the work. So there’s $2500 plus parts just there. Made in the phillipines. May or may not leak.
If you ask someone to build them locally I imagine it’s a lot more.

The issue right here right now is there’s a temporary glut of completed 10/14 tanks. It’s just a supply demand thing.
You won’t find a set of completed ER tanks for sale. That’s for sure.
I got asked to build a set of ERs after I completed mine and just flat out refused. Even at my kids weekend burger flipping rate I would have charged thousands.

This discussion isn’t about what the parts cost and you building it yourself…I understand that not everyone wants to pay to have things built for them.
 
I built my ER tanks from
SD and they were not too bad. PITA but they came out really nice:) I will be posting my build videos this week on my YouTube channel. Link is below!
If anyone needed 10 or 10ER tanks built in the US I would be willing to do it for the right price.
 
Pro tank building has been around the whole time I’ve been involved with RVs.
Theres always been a steady stream of builders willing to pay someone to build tanks.

There’s a local engineer here that builds heaps of them.
They cost way more than $2500 a set.

The cheapest way you’re getting a tank built for you is to buy a QB wing.
That’s about 10k more than the kit and I’m going to estimate that the tanks are 25% of the work. So there’s $2500 plus parts just there. Made in the phillipines. May or may not leak.
If you ask someone to build them locally I imagine it’s a lot more.

The issue right here right now is there’s a temporary glut of completed 10/14 tanks. It’s just a supply demand thing.
You won’t find a set of completed ER tanks for sale. That’s for sure.
I got asked to build a set of ERs after I completed mine and just flat out refused. Even at my kids weekend burger flipping rate I would have charged thousands.

This discussion isn’t about what the parts cost and you building it yourself…I understand that not everyone wants to pay to have things built for them.

You referenced you built your tanks in 90 hours. If you can build your wings in 360 hours from a non QB kit I’m impressed. I’m estimating tanks are closer to 10% and that would place completing in 900 hours. Seems about right if not low. That would put the market value of labor at $ 1,000 plus parts IF you can find a buyer. Any input what it took for builders to complete their wings?

BTW my 14 and 10 QB tanks tested perfect but wanted a plan B.

(And the majority for sale built in the Philippines).
 
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You referenced you built your tanks in 90 hours. If you can build your wings in 360 hours from a non QB kit I’m impressed. I’m estimating tanks are closer to 10% and that would place completing in 900 hours. Seems about right if not low. That would put the market value of labor at $ 1,000 plus parts IF you can find a buyer. Any input what it took for builders to complete their wings?

BTW my 14 and 10 QB tanks tested perfect but wanted a plan B.

(And the majority for sale built in the Philippines).

Made me go look..:p
Wing kit took me 409h in total. in spare time over around a year. That's all etch, alodined, Akzo. 3 ailerons too as I dropped one. I imagine that is a middle of the road time. I know what Im doing (quicker), but I strive for good quality (slower).
Tanks were 65 of that.

If you sat me in a room with all the bits and no other distractions for a few weeks I have no doubt I could shave at least 10% off that built to the same standard, probably a lot more.

Built to QB standard of priming, deburring and edge finishing with todays final sized drill kit I could easily knock off 30% or more. But the savings won't be in the tanks. Its the relentless match drilling, disassemble, deburring, prep and priming that soaks up all the time and drives you mad.

So I stand by my first hand experience, the tanks are close enough to 1/4 of the labour of a SB wing kit. Id argue in a QB the proportion may well be higher. 10% of 900h is way off the mark.

Its pointless arguing about it anyway, as currently, the price for 10/14 standard tanks is solely driven by supply (lots) and demand (nil), not by anyones perceived value of the parts and labor.
It can't be contested that tanks built to sell pre ER were selling way above where they are advertised now.

FWIW the emp/tailcone took me 210h and the fuse metalwork 500h.
I stopped counting there at around 1120h. that's probably about right given vans overall 2000h estimate for a 10.
For me, 1120h was all the metalwork finished (QB stage) at 3y into what became a 7y build. I probably spent that much time again on the fibreglass. and maybe half of that again on everything else - FWF - avionics etc.

As a thought experiment...If we apply the market value of labor concept to completed and flying RVs at the moment we get a rather different picture I would suggest!


IMG_7897.jpg
 
Impressive

409 hours to complete a wing is impressive. Vans likes to state they can build these for about the same price or less than our minimum wage. $ 10,000/409 and assuming they have some sort of assembly line process, they are doing ok. (And that’s a good thing) Regardless you are correct it’s supply and demand that will determine their resale value. I wonder if Vans would ever start offering ER tanks as an option? When you think about when they designed the 14 they used 50 gals so the 10 should have a 75 gal capacity for roughly the same duration.
 
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Well, I had a crazy idea, that as it turns out, wont work. That was to use the 10/14 tanks on RV7s and 8s. That would have given an increase of 8 gallons using the 14 tanks, and 18 gallons if using the 10 tanks. BUT, I'm informed that the leading edge shape is different between the RV7/8 tank and the 10/14 tank. The tank supports at the root ribs are obviously different, but a new fuselage to tank support bracket on the 7/8s could be made.

The shape of the leading edge changes alll of that. Not to say that a similar idea to the SD ER tanks cant be done, with the extra range involved a "BES" ( not my designation but from a VERY knowledgeable designer) might be needed. Thats a Bladder Evacuation System---:eek:

Tom
 
ER tank skin bend

Hello all. I am well under way assembling the ER tanks for new build RV10. I believe I have one of the first few kits to leave Kens shop, delivered about a year ago now.

I’m definitely having some issues getting the ribs installed dry into the skins. Much much harder than the Vans outboard leading edges. In fact, it is such a struggle dry, I don’t know how I’m ever going to be able to assemble these things with Proseal in the mix. Looks to me like the leading edge bend is too tight a radius. Only once I laid the skin on the ground and really opened the skin like a book to try to increase the bend radius would the ribs fit (with extreme force).

What am I doing wrong here? The nose area on all my tank ribs are heavily smoothed to avoid faceting as described in many areas on the -10 build. Is it possible the bend radius on early skins was slightly off?
 
Hi Scott
IMHO it’s highly unlikely that the skin pre punching is inaccurate. Not impossible, but not likely.
The 032 tank skins are stiffer and require a bit more grunt to manipulate than the 025 outer leading edge skins.
The radius only looks tight for the very very LE. It’ll work out.

Fitting the ribs “dry” probably isn’t helping or necessary if the holes are already full size.
The best method I’ve found is to start at the baffle end and insert 2-3 clecoes. Then do every 3-4 down that side and then do the opposite side from the baffle as well.
That will likely require some “levering” with the clecoes for the first couple.
When you do this with dimples and sealant it paradoxically gets easier. There’s some lube and the dimples pull things together a little as well.

With my ER tanks I final drilled the skins (which were slightly under) dimpled and put it all together in one go. No drilling/reaming assembled/disassembled first. Just final drilled the skins (ribs already final size) debur dimple proseal rivet.
One rib at a time.
 
I just finished my entire mini series on doing my RV10 ER tanks. Check out the videos and it should help a little. They are def not as easy of a fit as the LE because the fuel tank skins are thicker. Using the cradles helped out with dry fitting.
 
Hello all. I am well under way assembling the ER tanks for new build RV10. I believe I have one of the first few kits to leave Kens shop, delivered about a year ago now.

I’m definitely having some issues getting the ribs installed dry into the skins. Much much harder than the Vans outboard leading edges. In fact, it is such a struggle dry, I don’t know how I’m ever going to be able to assemble these things with Proseal in the mix. Looks to me like the leading edge bend is too tight a radius. Only once I laid the skin on the ground and really opened the skin like a book to try to increase the bend radius would the ribs fit (with extreme force).

What am I doing wrong here? The nose area on all my tank ribs are heavily smoothed to avoid faceting as described in many areas on the -10 build. Is it possible the bend radius on early skins was slightly off?

I believe the first 5 of Ken's ER kits were delivered to Synergy Air South and one of the five was mine. Yes, some extra manipulation was required due to the bend and the skin thickness. As Richard discussed, everything should fit properly as you do final assembly. We also did one rib at a time.
 
Anyone on here building the ER tanks have to lay down the skins and open the bend radius at all? Something here doesn’t seem right to me. I understand all the different methods to install ribs in these tougher locations and there was no way it was going to happen until the bend radius was decreased.

Aluminum obviously work hardens so it took quite to procedure to open that radius just enough to fight the ribs into place. There would have been no other way to make these ribs fit. Surely this can’t be normal?
 
Anyone on here building the ER tanks have to lay down the skins and open the bend radius at all? Something here doesn’t seem right to me. I understand all the different methods to install ribs in these tougher locations and there was no way it was going to happen until the bend radius was decreased.

Aluminum obviously work hardens so it took quite to procedure to open that radius just enough to fight the ribs into place. There would have been no other way to make these ribs fit. Surely this can’t be normal?

I thought there was something wrong with mine because it was so hard to get the ribs seated while assembling to match drill. I talked to some other builders and was told it was normal. I used a couple small pegs to align the holes and pull the rib down. Once a few were in place it got easier. If I remember correctly start with the top of the tank and do the bottom after. Its much harder if you do the bottom of the tank first. Once your on final assembly the sealant helps it slip in place without so much binding and this part was easier.
 

That is too big. I bought it and it wasn't going to work so I ran my own. Bought a 6/32 stainless bolt and ...


So the Racetronix pass-through wasn't too big, as RVFan671 stated it to be?
 
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