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Planning avionics upgrade RV-4

Firstlight

Active Member
Hello Folks,

Well, I am delighted to report that after 3 years without an RV, there is an RV4 on my horizon. We're not there yet, but the end is in sight. This one belongs to a buddy, and he spends most of his time flying his '8 these days.

This one is a nicely built machine with a bit of a hodge-podge VFR panel. I'll fly it this way for a while, but I think I'd like to eventually upgrade the panel and expand the airplane's capabilities a bit. My problem is I don't know anything about the glass panel equipment and various autopilot options that have transformed the homebuilt flying environment. I'm a bit like a dog watching television when I try to read all the EFIS/EMS/ARINC/RS232/AP acronyms.

I see a fairly regular stream of equipment trading on the used market, but I have a hard time telling which stuff is a good possible choice, and which stuff is out-dated or no longer supported. Can anybody recommend some gear to watch out for that fits into the space-constrained RV4 cockpit? I'd like to end up with a functional XC panel with good autopilot. If we win the lottery, I'd like to upgrade all the way to IFR requirements. If you can recommend things that have the ability to play nicely with something like a 430W, that would be great too.

Cheers,

Wayne
 
Sure is plenty to read on this constantly evolving matter.

I would suggest you look at a budget first and go from there. What I look for in a panel or end up installing myself is:

a reliable means of keeping right side up in the soup. Having had a shiny glass screen EFIS roll inverted 50 feet AGL on takeoff and already in the soup, I require backup for IFR ops. Having heard of others who have had 2 EFIS's do it simultaneously, I would want 2 different brands if EFIS only.

I prefer round gauge for airspeed at least, and preferably altitude and backup attitude indicator as well. This is a personal matter but I for one find round gauge airspeed much easier to read during critical times.

A panel mount IFR GPS. A 430W is possibly the best economical option today especially if you have more than one aircraft with a 430w as the data cards are interchangeable.

A means of in flight weather depiction. ads-b is evolving and free once the hardware is purchased. Some of the EFIS's will now display ads-b. A Garmin Aera is compact and will do it also.

A 2 axis autopilot. If I was installing an EFIS I would likely go with the EFIS manufacturers servos as it is the economical and integrated choice.

Engine monitoring I believe is best done with a digital screen. Alarm limits may be set and space may be saved.

Of course all the Garmin stuff will play well with a 430w. Have you read this:
http://garmin.blogs.com/pr/2014/07/...nectivity-to-mobile-devices.html#.VI4qLHvT60A
2 way flight plan transfer makes the lack of airway flight planning in the 430 series less onerous.

Recommend you invest in some inexpensive crimpers, strippers, etc; you can install your own avionics, autopilot servos, etc and make your upgrade dollars go farther.
 
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RV-4 Panel

Wayne

Send me your e-mail and I'll send you a picture of my RV-4 panel just to give an idea of what you can install in a -4 panel.

Good luck with the purchase


Bruno
[email protected]
 
Feel free to call me an I can talk you through the various options available, and cover some of the good, bad and ugly of each.

There are ways to start an upgrade small while planning for future upgrade phases.
 
wayne,

first, define your mission.
if your mission is VFR, a single screen, single ahrs set up will be fine. I have a single 10' skyview system in my RV-4. I don't do single engine IFR so redundant systems were not a requirement for me. This setup gives you all the neat features, autopilot,FD,map ect, but fits in the panel no problem.

if IFR is your mission and system redundant systems are needed you have a tougher way to go. to get dual screens in the RV-4 you will have to go with the smaller screens. Two 7" dynons will flt but it is a tough fit. you are not going to get a lot of redundant systems in a RV-4 panel, there is just not enough panel space. I personally don't think that round gauges are needed as back-up in any case, for IFR, dual screens with dual ahrs and dual backup batteries are fine in my option. that is doable in a RV-4. the only question is how to get the radios in the plane also. If you were to wan't something like a 430 it would probably need to be put in a center stack type setup.

there are some deals out there on used screens, as people are jumping to upgrade to the new touch units.

I would stay away from the older simpler systems like the D100 series just because the skyview and G3 systems offer so much more for not that much more money.

as for garmin gs dynon vs whoever, lets not go there. :) there are many threads about that subject.

bob burns
RV-4
N82RB
 
I'm a bit like a dog watching television when I try to read all the EFIS/EMS/ARINC/RS232/AP acronyms.

You too?? I thought it was just me. Then throw in some ADS-B chatter to really muddle my brain. I'll learn all this stuff someday and do an upgrade on my RV-8...
 
Hi Everybody, thanks for your thoughts. Thanks also to Bruno and Jesse for the offer of additional off-list info. I certainly will be taking you up on it.

I plan on flying this airplane VFR for the next few years at least. However, I'd like to make sure that whatever upgrades I do now are going to play nicely when I make it IFR. I'd go all the way right now, but the budget won't allow that at this time.

I'd like to install an autopilot in the relatively near future. I know that some autopilots can fly a coupled approach, while others are essentially limited to following the pink line, or acting like a wing leveler. I sure don't understand the differences between them, though. It's one thing to hand-fly a spam can through wet, thumpy clouds. I know I don't want to be doing that in the '4. I hope that what I buy today (hopefully used, but what do I know?) for a few years of pleasant VFR XC flying, will be something that can also communicate and be useful flying a precision approach.

When I fly IFR now I rent a spam can with a 430W, and I use my ipad with a Stratus ADSB unit. These things work really well, there are no cables, and they have been mostly reliable. However, I can't imagine having an ipad in the cockpit of the RV. Maybe I need to be more creative?

Here are two specific questions for you:

1.) Is there a "drop dead" date before which I should not consider used autopilot equipment if I want it to eventually be used during precision approaches?

2.) Are there any older EFIS systems that I should ignore because they are no longer supported, or are not compatible with modern WAAS radios? I did have an EFIS roll over and die on me one dark night over Detroit without any warning or alert flag. I nearly rolled over and died too!

;-)

Thanks in advance,

Wayne
 
Hi Wayne,

I can certainly help you out with autopilot information. Please feel free to PM me any questions you might have regarding capabilities/mission selection/etc. Trutrak is currently offering special pricing on a couple of our autopilot models. Let me know if I can help!
 
You can cram a whole lot of stuff in an RV4 if you like, but some of it will depend on the airplane already. We've done a pile of RV3 & 4 upgrades for folks and know them well...that said, some things one would need to know would be:

1) Do you have a stack on the center tunnel by the battery (and is the battery in the tunnel or on the firewall)?
2) Do you have a right hand armrest with switches/breakers on it, or are they all on the panel?
3) Is the fwd top skin screwed on like most, or did someone rivet it on?
4) Are you going to do this yourself or drop it off somewhere to get done?

You're received some good info, but just be awe bit wary that some of the info you do receive I can promise will be slightly skewed by what the opining folks have to offer you from a business perspective! :)

Now: To answer a few of your specific questions.

1) While there isn't necessarily a drop dead "date" for autopilots, there certainly are brands to avoid. For example Navaid (Long since discontinued), S-Tec, or any of the certified Autopilots. TruTrak is an excellent product and most any of them can be upgraded for a very modest fee (even old ones - we have one being upgraded now for a customer that is over 12yrs old), but be sure to check on that before purchasing...
2) Indeed there are specific EFISes to avoid: Blue Mountain, Chelton, OP Technologies, and a few other random ones. I'd stay if you stick with a currently produced product (almost any Dynon, most GRT's, most Garmin stuff), you'd be in good shape. That said, it will differ greatly on the exact models as to HOW they will interact with a potential autopilot (again, depends on the brand and model of the autopilot) and a certified GPS. For example, if you want it to do precision approaches and that means you NEED to ensure the EFIS has the capability to receive GPS ARINC signals (either internally or through a converter). Sorry to inundate you with yet more crazy acronyms!

Also realize that much of the current generation stuff may be much more affordable "brand new" then you might think! Sometimes used is a good deal, sometimes it really isn't.

In the end, it's almost better to sit down and sketch out an idea of what you're end result will be, then buy items that fit that general plan (and budget). What isn't a good idea is to accumulate a bunch of random stuff an then hope you can make it work together. That's why we have always have stuff for sale that was "traded in" as we work with customers to get complete solutions for their upgrades or new builds.

Hope that helps!

Cheers,
Stein
 
The currently available products all have operating and installation manuals on line. You can download the operating manuals and see if you think you could operate the equipment.

That might weed out some possibilities right there.

The next step would be to read through the installation manuals. Some systems are very modular. Even some that aren't, though, seem to end up with a surprising number of different components that need to be fastened to the aircraft and connected to another component.

And some have things like radios or transponders that are either integral or part of the overall system.

Dave
 
Here is a post from the owner of my old RV-4 after he upgraded the panel.

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?p=839842#post839842

AF-5500 EFIS, Dynon D6, AF-Pilot, GTN-650, Audio Panel
16045032872_b0716fcd72_o.jpg


We are getting ready to upgrade the panels in two RV-4's from old steam gauges to Advanced Quick panels.
Since our panels use the Advanced Control Module you can easily add the GPS Navigator at a later date.
We can pre-cut the panel for the navigator and then when you're ready we send the navigator with the harness to plug into the control module.

If you have any questions give me a call.

Rob Hickman
Advanced Flight Systems
N402RH RV-10
 
Autopilot choice

Here is my 2 cents worth.

The -4 has a very nice, somewhat sensitive, feel to it when flying. Could adding autopilot servos change that, depending on the servo? Some servos can be felt through the stick even though they are not energized. Other servos release until they are energized, exhibiting virtually no feel through the stick when flying with the autopilot turned off.

Is this an issue? Maybe, maybe not. You won't know unless you can try these for yourself.

My Rocket has the servos that can always be felt through the control system; my aileron stiffness is exacerbated by a torque enhancer installed on the aileron servo. The autopilot works very well but adds some undesired stiffness to the control system.

I believe this stiffness contributes to a certain amount of instability - aircraft does not return to straight and level after an upset (turbulence) as easily as it would without the interference of the servos. If I were doing it over I would definitely research systems whose servos are released until energized.
 
I believe this stiffness contributes to a certain amount of instability - aircraft does not return to straight and level after an upset (turbulence) as easily as it would without the interference of the servos. If I were doing it over I would definitely research systems whose servos are released until energized.

Pardon le drift, but do you know of any AP systems whose servos are released until energized?
 
Dynon AP servos are powered from ships power via a switch. When unpowered or when powered and the AP is inactive, they do not produce friction in the controls. You should consider a single screen 10 inch Dynon Skyview with 1 ADAHRS for both VFR and IFR. It has a 1-Hr backup battery if you lost ships power. For IFR add a Dynon D1 or D2 for the emergency attitude backup.
 
Dynon AP servos are powered from ships power via a switch. When unpowered or when powered and the AP is inactive, they do not produce friction in the controls. You should consider a single screen 10 inch Dynon Skyview with 1 ADAHRS for both VFR and IFR. It has a 1-Hr backup battery if you lost ships power. For IFR add a Dynon D1 or D2 for the emergency attitude backup.

Just as an FYI, Dynon servos are mechanically identical to Trutrak servos...as are GRT servos....and MGL servos (minus some mounting hole differences). Carry on!
 
Thanks

As I research RV4's, I found this thread. I could not have worded the opening questions better so Thanks everyone for contributing. The thread is older but since no specific models are named, I suspect the information is still relatively accurate.

I am debating that if I get an RV4 without glass, whether I would update the panel for IFR capabilities. There is lots of nice stuff out there these days.

Thanks for contributing to this thread. I am sure there are many other threads to peruse as well.


Shawn
 
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