What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Trying to be a new RV owner

ShawnR

Well Known Member
Friend
Hi All

I think I am finally (after years of looking, watching and probably not enough learning), ready to commit to an RV. It will probably be a 4 as I have been talking to some sellers (in Canada). But I have some questions that I hoped could get some brief answers. Don't worry about too much detail. Save the typing for when I really own one and then will need you to hold my hand. ;)

One, an older model (mid 80's) has no lights, electric trim or fuel primer.

Lights....I would really like to have lights on whatever one I get, not that I am going to venture off in the dark, but it does extend the flying day if necessary. I have looked at the FlyLED's stuff a bit. Looks good but are other options available? Will I need to change wing tips or are kits available for most tips. I am thinking there are only a few types of tips..?

Electric trim....one had a manual trim, which is fine for flying but if I wanted to add an autopilot ie Garmin GMC 507, is it hard to modify an older 4 in this way? I wonder what the weight differential would be. The control head would be light as the servo. Removing the trim linkage would remove weight so I would suspect a negligible weight change...? Or am I wrong in that reasoning?

Fuel Primer.....one had no fuel primer pump. O360 engine. Primer recommended? It has been flying for a long time without one but it seems from my limited research, a primer pump is common.

Props.....Most RV4's I have seen have wooden props. Is the reason for that cost or are there other reasons? I would feel better with aluminum but probably mostly cause all of my certified planes have had metal props.

Rear rudder pedals.....I few I have looked at over the years have no rear rudder pedals. But some do. Are they hard to add to a built aircraft? I will be a relatively low time tail wheel flyer and totally new to aerobatics so it would be nice to have the security of a back seat pilot with rudder control. Or are they just generally in the way due to the small area in which they would go?

I think that is enough questions for now. Answers will give me lots to think about and to do further research as I continue my search for an RV4 (or 8) I am looking forward to being part of the RV community, albeit I am not a builder.

Thanks
Cheers,
Shawn
 
Last edited:
Lights....I would really like to have lights on whatever one I get, not that I am going to venture off in the dark, but it does extend the flying day if necessary. I have looked at the FlyLED's stuff a bit. Looks good but are other options available? Will I need to change wing tips or are kits available for most tips. I am thinking there are only a few types of tips..?
If the wingtips don't have provision for lights now, you'll need to either get good at fiberglass and lexan-forming work, or you'll need a new set of wingtips. Vans doesn't make the -4 wingtips anymore I don't think.

Electric trim....one had a manual trim, which is fine for flying but if I wanted to add an autopilot ie Garmin GMC 507, is it hard to modify an older 4 in this way? I wonder what the weight differential would be. The control head would be light as the servo. Removing the trim linkage would remove weight so I would suspect a negligible weight change...? Or am I wrong in that reasoning?
Many -4's have been retrofitted with autopilots and electric trim after-the-fact. Note that manual trim works with an autopilot too... The autopilot doesn't use the trim tab. There's not a lot of room in an RV-4 aft fuselage to move around, so plan to find your smallest friend to help you.

Fuel Primer.....one had no fuel primer pump. O360 engine. Primer recommended? It has been flying for a long time without one but it seems from my limited research, a primer pump is common.
A primer is nice. Even better, a primer solenoid that uses the fuel pump to do your priming for you. But you can get by without one, the carb has an accelerator pump that will provide fuel when the throttle is pumped. Just don't do it when the prop isn't turning, or you'll flood the carb, your airbox, and the ramp below your cowling.

Props.....Most RV4's I have seen have wooden props. Is the reason for that cost or are there other reasons? I would feel better with aluminum but probably mostly cause all of my certified planes have had metal props.
Cost, weight, etc. Wood props are nice to fly behind. Generally want to avoid rain though, or throttle back quite a bit if you get into rain.

Rear rudder pedals.....I few I have looked at over the years have no rear rudder pedals. But some do. Are they hard to add to a built aircraft? I will be a relatively low time tail wheel flyer and totally new to aerobatics so it would be nice to have the security of a back seat pilot with rudder control. Or are they just generally in the way due to the small area in which they would go?
There are a couple of rear-seat pedal designs. They add weight, and take up some foot room. I don't know how hard they would be to retrofit.
 
Howdy Shawn and good choice!

Adding lights would not be hard but it might not be quick and easy either. Locating the lights in the existing tips might take a bit of fabrication. Not hard. Running wires out the wings is not hard but not a 5 minute job either. Adding additional fuses/circruit breakers/switches is entirely dependent on your existing panel and electrical system. Certainly not hard but again, might take some time. If an old ship... this often becomes an complete rewire and new panel (for those that can't stand old/less than perfect). Refitting things in the panel is often not ideal and a balance must be struck. Quite a number of options out there, all depends on your requirements, cost aversion, and ease of installation.

The autopilot pitch servo connects to the elevator push-pull tube - not the elevator trim. Electric trim won't buy you anything there.

I can't speak to the primer on an O-360. I have an O-320 and Marvel carb without primer and have never needed one.

Prop selection is often about cost, weight, and performance. Nothing wrong with wood or metal - both have their pros and cons (as in cost, weight, operating conditions (rain, rocks), etc.). I have a composite ground adjustable from Sensenich which I love (and fly in rain and dirt strips).

I have an older kit and never installed the backset pedals. It would not be difficult to do so. Mine has a pivot point riveted to a floor panel and then a cable connector is crimped onto the rudder cable and attached to the pedal.

None of the things you've mentioned would stop me from buying any particular RV-4. That said, I'm one of those people that buy a thing and then customize it to my liking.
 
I have a -4 with an O-360, aluminum prop, manual trim, no accelerator pump, has a primer solenoid. Even though I don’t have an accelerator pump, I almost never use the primer solenoid. I would expect that since the one you are looking at has flown for years without one, you probably don’t need it either, especially if you have an accelerator pump.

Wood props are fine, torque them at least once a year, preferably in the winter when it’s driest, and if you hit rain, throttle back to 2000 RPM to avoid leading edge erosion.

Manual trim works fine, even with an autopilot, but I want to make an upgrade to electric also to incorporate auto trim and remove the weight of the heavy trim cable.

You can add position lights externally to the wingtips, and cut the leading edge of the wings for landing lights using the duck work brackets and FLY LED 4 combo lights. I recently bought the clear lenses from Flyboys accessories and fiberglassed the flanges for flush lights, but it was a lot of work. Going with newer wingtips could solve the problem, as they all fit, but IMO, they are ugly and the original -4 flat top tips look the best.

I have rear pedals, and they are useless. You can roll the plane with your feet flat on the floor, as there is hardly and adverse yaw. As for takeoffs or landings from the rear, I don’t know if I have enough pedal authority in the back to trust them..I wouldn’t waste your time installing them.
 
Last edited:
Thanks everyone for the input!

I am sure this is just the beginning of questions but that answers the immediate ones I have.
I would be doing a panel makeover in any of the ones I have seen so far. It would come down to how much of the old instruments I would reuse but I am leaning to a Garmin panel of some sort. But that will have to be a whole new thread. I have been collecting photos of panels in 4's and 8's for ideas.

Shawn
 
Read rudder pedals and aerobatics

Note that with a wood prop you'll likely be near or aft of rear aerobatic CG with an instructor, unless you can find a really small/light one. And finding one that's willing to do aerobatic instruction in an RV-4 might be tough too.

If you did find a willing instructor, I'd imagine he/she would also want throttle access from the rear seat.

I asked a CFI if he'd give me a BFR in my RV-4 and he said he did that once and never again!

Finn
 
Great advice so far.
-Place the Trim servo on the deck under the vertical stab.
-Duckworks mount and Fly LED’s for landing and taxi lights in the leading edge
-External position lts and strobes on wingtips
Easy peasy.
Given the -4 CG issue, IMHO, the trade off of a forward CG and loadability for the light feel of a light nosed -4 is worth it. 160HP and C/S is a Goldilocks configuration. However, your mission will dictate.
I recommend you read every thread in the -4 sub-forum to help you understand the -4 limitations and better evaluate your mission.
Also, you’ll find that the older -4’s have a lot of variation. There was a lot more left to the builder than in the newer kits.
Good luck!!
 
RV-4

I have over 1200 hours in SuzieQ and have never wished I had an autopilot. Strictly pilot preference but the -4 flies so well it will stay on track for miles hands off.

Electric trim is one more thing to go wrong/break. Not much going on with a manual trim.

Wood prop: that is all I have run on SuzieQ and love it. I have a Landoll harmonic balancer (search that) which adds 12 pounds or so of forward weight and smooths the pulses on a wooden prop. Throttling back in the rain is not an issue. It doesn't happen often and is usually only for a few minutes. My Warnke prop is an amazingly beautiful piece of ART! Love my -4!

Scroll around today and recent posts and see what Van himself says about a light-weight -4! (read Van The Man .....OSH 22 thread)
 
Last edited:
The autopilot pitch servo connects to the elevator push-pull tube - not the elevator trim. Electric trim won't buy you anything there.
.

Some autopilots (I have a Trio Pro) will drive electric trim, if available. Nothing like starting an autopilot-coupled approach at 140 knots, then slowing, adding flaps, etc., then disconnecting the autopilot on short final, and having everything perfectly trimmed! But for level flight, auto trim is not needed. Most autopilots will indicate if manual up/down trim is needed.

As others have indicated, if getting aerobatic instruction is on your list, best check Vans allowed weight and balance for aerobatics, plus your own and instructor’s weight, aircraft weight and cg. It may be hard to make it all work.
 
Trying to be a new RV Owner

As an early # RV-4 owner I will try to answer some of your questions

------------------------------------------
Lights....I would really like to have lights on whatever one I get, not that I am going to venture off in the dark, but it does extend the flying day if necessary. I have looked at the FlyLED's stuff a bit. Looks good but are other options available? Will I need to change wing tips or are kits available for most tips. I am thinking there are only a few types of tips..?

Refer to TALTRUDA Post above, he covers all of your points

----------------
Electric trim....one had a manual trim, which is fine for flying but if I wanted to add an autopilot ie Garmin GMC 507, is it hard to modify an older 4 in this way? I wonder what the weight differential would be. The control head would be light as the servo. Removing the trim linkage would remove weight so I would suspect a negligible weight change...? Or am I wrong in that reasoning?

My RV-4 was originally equipped with manual trim but now has Pitch and Roll electric trim..I kept the Vans Manual Trim Cable and installed the servo where the manual trim handle used to be and it is working flawlessly..
Installing the servo in the back of the aircraft will be a better choice but a lot more work to retrofit..

---------------------------------------
Fuel Primer.....one had no fuel primer pump. O360 engine. Primer recommended? It has been flying for a long time without one but it seems from my limited research, a primer pump is common.

A manual fuel primer is an easy installation if you are handy with your hands..;)

---------------------------------
Props.....Most RV4's I have seen have wooden props. Is the reason for that cost or are there other reasons? I would feel better with aluminum but probably mostly cause all of my certified planes have had metal props.

My RV-4 now has a Catto 3 Bladded Carbon fiber with nickel leading edge but originally had a WARNKE wood prop, The difference in weight is minimal..

--------------------------------------
Rear rudder pedals.....I few I have looked at over the years have no rear rudder pedals. But some do. Are they hard to add to a built aircraft? I will be a relatively low time tail wheel flyer and totally new to aerobatics so it would be nice to have the security of a back seat pilot with rudder control. Or are they just generally in the way due to the small area in which they would go?

I have removal rear rudder pedals and rear throttle and they are easy to install/remove and add very little weight...They are easy to retrofit to a flying -4..
---------------------------------

If you're still looking for a nice RV-4, a friend of mine has one for sale in the Montreal area....


Good luck in your search, you're going to love the RV-4..

Bruno
 
Thanks all. Good information for me to ponder. I have not committed to one yet.

Another question. One I am looking at needs some TLC. I would like to take it to my home shop to work on for the winter. Is removing/reinstalling wings on an RV4 a big deal? I know the term is a relative question. I am pretty mechanical but never worked on an RV.

I have not seen any plans or construction manuals yet. That would probably help answer my question but you guys are so great....:)

Shawn
 
Pulling the wings is easy and straight forward.
-pull flaps and ailerons
-Use 2 helpers (3 is better)
-need some means of support. Coolers with pillows and blankets or old sofa cushions work well.
-support both wings before you remove the first one
-wiggle up and down slightly at the wingtip while sliding it out.
I recommend leaving the empennage on for transport as the tail will be light with the wings off; don’t want it to accidentally dump over on its nose.
Buy the plans thumb drive from Van’s. Or wait til you are the owner and the builder number has been xfered: then download the plans for free.
Note that some of the plans revisions have been significant. The aft fuselage bulkhead/HS attach comes to mind. What you see in the current plans may not be reflected in the plane you end up with.
 
Thanks andoman!

That is exciting! Way easier to work on it here over the winter! Except for explaining to my wife why the house renovations are not moving forward and why I am in the shop so much...:eek:
 
Winter project

Thanks andoman!

That is exciting! Way easier to work on it here over the winter! Except for explaining to my wife why the house renovations are not moving forward and why I am in the shop so much...:eek:

And why the wings are in the Bedroom. That coffee table looks a whole lot like a horizontal tail. Are those airplane tires holding the door open?:D:D:D
 
Ha!
I built and covered a set of Kitfox wings in the living room.
At least the aluminum won’t reek of MEK and Stits Poly-Brush… I still can’t believe I survived that one.
BEST WIFE EVER!!
 
Lenses for lights

You can add position lights externally to the wingtips, and cut the leading edge of the wings for landing lights using the duck work brackets and FLY LED 4 combo lights. I recently bought the clear lenses from Flyboys accessories and fiberglassed

I cannot find lenses on Flyboys. Do I have the wrong website?

https://flyboys.com/
 
as much as I like the look of the flat top wingtips, and have them on mine with the flyleds made for them, the easiest solution is just switch to the new style tips and flyleds. the 415 lenses, If you can find them, are a lot of work to install and get right.

bob burns
RV-4 n82rb
 
Now....an RV4 owner

Happy to say that I have finally joined the family. The seller and me were able to get our schedules aligned and my "new to me" RV4 has arrived. It does need some love and upgrades that I want to do so will be a project over the winter. I, unfortunately, will not be flying it this year. It is just not worth it to insure it for a few weeks before our field gets snowed in, so I have decided to do the upgrades that I have asked about in this and other threads. Panel, lighting, rear rudder pedals (maybe for insurance), and just general making it into my aircraft.

Thanks to those that have given me input on my questions. Many more questions to come now that I have some physical to relate to.

Woo Woo!!

Shawno

:D
 
Last edited:
Congratulations

Hi Shawn

Glad that you found your new to you -4 and joined the club, you will love every minute.

Cheers

Bruno
 
Back
Top