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veneer panel

gmpaul

Active Member
Yesterday I was in Houston at a wood working show and came across some beautiful veneer and of course the first thing I thought of was my panel. Man that would sure look good: swearling grain, satan finish, very unique, all the time telling myself no you don't need this because.....
Ok now I'm the proud owner of a bundle of some real pretty veneer.
Here's the question: has anyone had any luck in applying wood veneer to an aluminum panel and how did you do it?

Thanks G.P.
 
NO!

Hi G.P.
We have beautiful bird's eye maple veneer on our -6A and it has been on there for a year and a half but is starting to crack in the narrow spaces between the round instruments (airspeed/alt, etc) and the cracks are slowly widening but now seem to have stabilized. I'm not sure that I'd do it again.

I also don't know whether or not to have the aluminum dash warm as in the summer before you apply the veneer. Ours was 3M glue backed and stuck (sticks?) incredibly well. Apparently there's a big difference in the coeficient of expansion/contraction.

Regards,
 
No also

I agree with Pierre!
I had the same experiance.
There are other ways to get the same effect.
I've seem the rich wood under thick plastic.
Also, and I haven't about this one in the RV group, but my hangar mate and RV-6 guy is in the sign business and the computer graphics run on vinyl sheets are fantastic and can be customized for you. So effectively it would be a vinyl overlay on the metal panel. Just a thought!
Good Luck
 
Water Transfer printing

Here's another way to accomplish the same thing, without the problems. This is what the auto mfgs are doing. There are people who will do this for custom prders.

I plan to use this on my RV-10. There are a WIDE variety of 'skins' you can use

http://www.watertransferprinting.com/
 
Kydex

Kydex, which is a plastic like material used in many automotive and aircraft application is available with a wood grain finish.

http://www.kydex.com/products/textures#

For those that have seen the Aerosport Products interior panels, they are made out of kydex.

Getting a small enough piece of kydex to do a single instrument panel or a set of inserts will probably be the biggest obstacle. Minimum order quanties are more than what you would want for a single aircraft. The kydex would also have to be backed by alumunium for use in a panel.

bob
 
The Veneer should not be attached to the aluminum. If you could find a way to sandwich or float it in there but not attach it to anything, you should be okay. The wood will contract and expand with temperature and moisture much more than than anything else in the aircraft, if it is glued, bolted or screwed to the aluminum, it will create enormous pressure as the wood expands, leading to cracking and splitting. Much like how a wooden prop can stretch bolts, except obviously veneer is much thinner.
 
We did a mahogany veneer overlay in our Jodel. ( wood RV!)
Basically we cut out the exact panel without the screw holes, then attached with velcro tabs so that it stood off (just the height of the screw heads). Thus easy to remove when an instrument needed work, and we had to re-varnish it frequently due to the heat causing it to check.
It was a thing of beauty, but sometimes we wished it wasn't glossy, and the thickness made a couple instruments a bit harder to read from the co-pilot's seat.(my seat!)
I think perhaps the faux finishes may be the way to go now....easier to add to other parts of the cabin as well.
 
I have always veneered my panels. I just like the look of it. I have found that the wide-grained woods, such as maple and Oak will crack and not look as nice as the finer grained woods such as Cherry.

Vic
 
Several years ago at Van's Homecoming I saw a beautiful panel that looked like wood but was some kind of laminate material, maybe like you would see on a counter top. Did not look chintzy; looked like a fancy wood. I have looked at counter top laminates in the last couple years and haven't found anything that looked nearly as good.
 
Walnut Burl

I had mine made by Aero Enhancements. I don't think they are still producing the overlays. The Walnut Burl veneer is glued to a black plastic base (approx. 3/16"), the type was applied on the veneer and then covered with some type of clear acrylic. I gave him my CAD file used to cut the panel and it matched perfectly. When I did a google search it looks like they are still is business but not producing the overlays.

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Gary
N715AB
700 hours
 
**necrothread alert** :)

On my Mk I panel (following some bad advice) I did a fiberglass layup with a veneer overlay, using West Systems 207 clear hardener. A test layup was done on a part cockpit part called a "diamond plate" over 6061 aluminum, and while I scrapped the fiberglass panel a long time ago the diamond plate is still there, and has held up with no changes. Both were vacuum bagged for 12 hours, then 3 coats of satin poly applied, and came out well.

I also took the panel down and had a sign shop laser print/burn burn an osprey into the panel before sealing, the size and location was limited by his machine, so next time I'll have it done on the glove box door.

I'm planning on doing the same to the new panel (this time using 2024T3 aluminum), sometime this summer. Lot of effort, but it's worth it to me, and I'm having fun.
 

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Well... time for a stick in the mud opinion. The panel's primary function is functionality, not beauty. Anything over the top can be a visual distraction.
 
Transparent glass layer

Never tried it on Aluminum, this comes from boatworking...

I like to carefully wet out a layer of woven glass over my laminates. If you are careful you won't be able to see the glass under your clear coat.

In my experience this arrests a lot of what the wood will try to do with temperature and moisture. Partially because of the glass and partially by the sealing action of the epoxy.

If I tried that I would get the best bond I could on the aluminum with a compatible primer system before epoxying the laminate.
 
Being a veneer woodworker and cedar-strip canoe builder, working with veneers is really straightforward and guaranteed to produce a satisfying final product. The keys are as follows:

1. Start with a good quality veneer (see http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2215)
2. Get a good glue, either contact cement or Titebond Cold Press for veneer http://www.rockler.com/product.cfm?page=2220
3. Either a stain (your choice) or not. I prefer to not stain because the wood will darken over time from UV exposure. Stained wood will just be that much darker.
4. A good clear coat protectant. Preferably lacquer. Almost any other clear coat will yellow over time. The clear coat MUST be sprayed with at least four light coats with sanding between the coats. (Spray two coats before sanding).
5. The panel must have ALL holes and switch cut-outs already cut out. Clean the panel well to remove any grease, oils, etc. (Remove any switches or instruments first (duh). Lay the clean aluminum panel on a flat surface.
6. Lay out the veneer (dry) onto the panel and orient. Use a single sheet of veneer if possible. Avoid having to book match any edges. Allow for at least .25" overlay on the panel edges. You can trim excess with scissors. 7. Remove the panel.
8. LIGHTLY dampen the veneer with water using a sponge until the veneer is completely wetted (DO NOT thoroughly soak!). Lay a flat board or sheet of plywood over the veneer and allow to dry (2-3 hours) Add weights to the plywood to really press the veneer down tightly or you will get bubbling of the veneer. Wetting will raise the grain and pre-shrink the veneer. It will also help the veneer flatten out.
9. Lay out the panel on butcher paper on a flat surface. Use a roller and apply the Titebond over the entire surface of the panel. Repeat to the BACK of the veneer. Place the veneer on to the panel and roll the veneer (using a clean roller) from the inside outward toward the panel edges (removes any bubbles and assures a good bond. Cover veneered panel with butcher paper and plywood. Weigh down and allow to dry at least 24 hours.
10. Remove weights and plywood, flip panel over and use a sharp exacto knife to trim around instrument holes and switches. Edges can be cleaned up with a dremel tool and sandpaper.
11. Flip panel over. With veneer side up, lightly sand with 320-400 grit paper to remove any raised grain. Blow away any sawdust. Lightly wipe with a damp sponge to thoroughly remove residual sawdust. (Surface must be absolutely clean before next step.)
12. Spray first (light) coat of lacquer. Allow to dry at least 15-20 minutes. Apply labels (Depending on veneer color you would use white lettering on a dark veneer or black lettering on a light veneer. Labels should be printed on clear background.)
13. Apply second coat. Lacquer should be dry enough to sand (320 grit) within 30-60 minutes depending on humidity. (BTW, humidity should be below 70%). Repeat until you have desired look (4-8 coats). REMEMBER, multiple layers of thinner coats will be better than 2-3 heavy coats. Sanding must be followed with a damp wipe to remove any contaminants. Sand lightly to rough up the surface for good adhesion of successive coats.

https://vansairforce.net/community/showpost.php?p=46511&postcount=13

To save others from searching.
 
Never tried it on Aluminum, this comes from boatworking...

I like to carefully wet out a layer of woven glass over my laminates. If you are careful you won't be able to see the glass under your clear coat.

In my experience this arrests a lot of what the wood will try to do with temperature and moisture. Partially because of the glass and partially by the sealing action of the epoxy.

If I tried that I would get the best bond I could on the aluminum with a compatible primer system before epoxying the laminate.

Duck, do you lay out the glass after you've mounted and let dry the veneer, in lieu of a poly finish? I built a CLC 17LT wood kayak a long time ago and am using the experience I gained from that build on the panel. But now that I think about it, I still used a few coast of poly over the glass deck on top for UV protection.

Thanks,

Steve (also "Duck")
 
Duck, do you lay out the glass after you've mounted and let dry the veneer, in lieu of a poly finish? I built a CLC 17LT wood kayak a long time ago and am using the experience I gained from that build on the panel. But now that I think about it, I still used a few coast of poly over the glass deck on top for UV protection.

Thanks,

Steve (also "Duck")

Substrate-Epoxy-Laminate(veneer)-Epoxy-Glass-Epoxy-UV stable topcoat (varnish/poly of some kind) Absolutely must cover up the epoxy.

Can be done iteratively with a gravity press if the veneer is really flat, otherwise a vacuum bag is kind of a must. I wouldn't try doing it all at once, get the laminate bonded then go on to the glassing later.
 
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Here's the question: has anyone had any luck in applying wood veneer to an aluminum panel and how did you do it?

I did this on my 1932 Monocoupe 110. Followed advice and recommendations from other antique plane restorers that had gone before me. Panel blank was 0.063 aluminum. Fit, cut and drilled all holes first. Scuffed aluminum with scotch brite pad. Cleaned with acetone. I used rubber cement. Brushed on both the panel and the back side of the veneer. Let it get tacky (plenty of advise on the internet on how to do this). Carefully position on veneer where you want it (get the best features of the veneer piece). Used a heavy rubber roller (sold at wood/veneer shops) to roll out any air bubbles. Weighted it down with a board and some weights. Let it dry. Carefully back drill holes using a wood board underneath. I cut 90% of the instrument holes out with a razor knife, then finished with drum sander on Dremel tool. Light sanding. Varnish with PolyFiber polyurethane clear varnish (which is what I had to use on the rest of the airframe woodwork). Multiple thin coats with plenty of dry time between coats, you don't want to solvent saturate the veneer.

6 years so far in AZ weather extremes and so far holding up.

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Wood on panel

OK! Well now, I have experience with this type of thing and wished I didn't.
Holy Batman does it turn into a problem or WHAT????
I regret the whole process. As others have said get some plastic or anything BUT veneered wood
My thoughts and cost to get rid of it.
Art
 

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wood panel veneer

Problem is wood and moisture. You put wood in an airplane and leave it outside for a while and It absorbs into wood veneer and warps, swells, cracks, and goes to #^&*#&
Art
 
hmmmm..... wonder if the same problem would happen if it was kept in a hangar?

How long did it take to go bad?
 
Bought it this way and planned on panel replacement as a consideration of purchase.
I got a good deal on the aircraft. I guess nobody else liked the panel either cause it was on the market for long time.
As you can see it was pretty hacked up. As a preparation of getting it ready for the new panel I removed all unnecessary stuff and put in the SDS fuel and ignition system..
Only left the transponder, one radio, and a couple round gauges and the switching for the old system..
New panel is Dynon HDX plus plus plus oh ya $$$$$$$$$$$
BUT, I am a 43 year retired home builder and and would never have wood in an airplane.
If kept in a hangar I see no problem with delaminating of the veneer.
But, again why would a person put something in that is so permanent and costly to replace when you can go with glue on carbon fiber or even fake wood or or or.
My three cents worth of experience Art
 
Bought it this way and planned on panel replacement as a consideration of purchase.
It was an 18 year old plane when I got it.
I got a good deal on the aircraft. I guess nobody else liked the panel either cause it was on the market for long time.
As you can see it was pretty hacked up. As a preparation of getting it ready for the new panel I removed all unnecessary stuff and put in the SDS fuel and ignition system..
Only left the transponder, one radio, and a couple round gauges and the switching for the old system..
New panel is Dynon HDX plus plus plus oh ya $$$$$$$$$$$
BUT, I am a 43 year retired home builder and and would never have wood in an airplane.
If kept in a hangar I see no problem with delaminating of the veneer.
But, again why would a person put something in that is so permanent and costly to replace when you can go with glue on carbon fiber or even fake wood or or or.
My three cents worth of experience Art
 
Wood is an act of love

No doubt that using something natural comes with decomposition problems! But that's the reason some people do it anyway. This is close to 'off-topic' but I offer this experience to show how wood can hold up in the elements:

Our other Duck's reference to Chesapeake Light Crafts (
https://www.clcboats.com/shop/boats...ng-kayaks/chesapeake-17-lt-sea-kayak-kit.html ) is a good one for all of us builders. If you enjoyed your EAB, have 'empty garage syndrome,' and want to keep building try your hand at a small boat kit.

In 2006 I put together one of their kits and did a lot of extra artful veneer. That boat has spent nearly everyday in the tropical sun and passaged with me on a circumnavigation in the best and worst of conditions. (Passaged aboard a larger vessel, not saying I went around the big blue on a dinghy) Salt, sun, freezing, submerging, impacts...it got it all. After fifteen years I swallowed the anchor (sold), but that little boat looked just as good as when it was built.

No criticism of Fixit's problem, he didn't build it. That looks like a failure to provide and maintain a sufficient UV barrier. UV will shrink just about everything we put on wood to protect it. That results in micro-cracks of the protective barrier particularly in epoxy, cracks so small you won't see them. Then the water gets access even if it is just varying humidity, it will 'lift and separate.' One of the reasons to try a thin layer of glass to help with that inevitable tension. But damage like Fixit shows doesn't have to happen.

Build the wood right and it WILL hold up for you. Never took a lot of pics but here are a couple to show what the exposed wood looked like.
 

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Peel and stick

I used a peel and stick Mahogany veneer. Very easy and has held up well.
 

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Substrate-Epoxy-Laminate(veneer)-Epoxy-Glass-Epoxy-UV stable topcoat (varnish/poly of some kind) Absolutely must cover up the epoxy.

Can be done iteratively with a gravity press if the veneer is really flat, otherwise a vacuum bag is kind of a must. I wouldn't try doing it all at once, get the laminate bonded then go on to the glassing later.


Only thing I'd worry about is amine blush after glassing. Hate to get all that way and have it go bad. https://epoxycraft.com/epoxy-basics/amine-blush-what-you-need-to-know/


This was passed on via PM from another builder, trust me, he's a good source.

Anon said:
I used high quality veneer like what is used in cabinet refinishing. Take care to sand the cutout, and then finish with Luge oil or a high quality epoxy varnish

He confirms what we did previously/what I was planning on doing. I'll update as I go, if people are interested. We used a nice piece of hickory veneer before, think I'll stick with that.
 
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Amine Blush

Amine Blush is certainly not something to leave there before the next coat. But then again, any hardened layer has to be sanded for mechanical tooth anyway.

Blushes vary by epoxy manufacturer, are water soluble, and not terribly persistent. Normal sanding will gather most of it up in the dust, but a scotch brite and water will absolutely dissolve it so that it can be wiped off and not clog up the sand paper quite as much.
 
Here's the diamond plate in the center of my SeaRey, did it 10something years ago and it still looks great. Admittedly, OspRey has been a hangar queen, but the temps in the hangar have ranged from 10s-90s F, so it's been through a fairly wide temperature envelope during that time.

Thought I'd have her flying a long time ago but.... y'know.... She'll fly on Wednesday, just not sure which one.
 

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Well... time for a stick in the mud opinion. The panel's primary function is functionality, not beauty. Anything over the top can be a visual distraction.

Funny thing, Ed, is I see so many people falling head over heels in love with glass cockpits, and [flame suit on] while I acknowledge they have their uses, I also think they can be a bigger distraction and hazard than they are worth. I'm talking about open loop checklists where people have their heads staring at a screen instead of flying the plane, or going through an OODA loop trying to interpret digital information instead of looking at an analog display where the needle is "about there" and is Ok. [/flame suit off]

I'm basing this on ~20,000 hours of flying glass at work in a multi-crew cockpit, and a couple thousand in steam gauge single pilot GA airplanes, YMMV, differing opinions are welcome.
 
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Nothing like a nice piece of hickory. Ironically, it was only a couple bucks more for the 4x8 sheet than the smaller piece I needed, so I've got a bit to practice on.
 

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If you used aircraft plywood, you would have that interlayer to help avoid cracks. And you could engrave through the first layer to that for your labels.

Dave
 
If you used aircraft plywood, you would have that interlayer to help avoid cracks. And you could engrave through the first layer to that for your labels.

Dave

Thought about that, but my panel has "wings" on each side, so the veneer was easier.



Plan was to prep yesterday and bag it today, picked up a trip on short notice and did it all in one day. Privately other builders told me they had had great success with contact cement, and that's what the veneer manufacturer recommends, but once you put it on contact cement you can't move it, so I like going the epoxy route. Fortunately I have the equipment for vacuum bagging and an excellent supply house nearby (https://fiberglasssupply.com/), so if I run short of stuff it's just a quick run to the other side of the field.

Like before, I used West Systems 205/207, bagged it for 5 hours. Look fine this morning, just one small spot of epoxy bleed-through that will mostly be hidden by the Skyview. Carefully filled the nutplates with some vaseline and wiped the surface clean, hopefully it kept the epoxy out.


Now I let it sit for a week while I'm on this trip, then stain, a few coats of spar varnish, and....
 

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Peel and stick

I did my panel with peel and stick mahogany veneer.
Worked well, easy and no mess. Holding up well 5 years so far.
 

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Amine Blush is certainly not something to leave there before the next coat. But then again, any hardened layer has to be sanded for mechanical tooth anyway.

Blushes vary by epoxy manufacturer, are water soluble, and not terribly persistent. Normal sanding will gather most of it up in the dust, but a scotch brite and water will absolutely dissolve it so that it can be wiped off and not clog up the sand paper quite as much.

PLUS ONE on removing amine blush with warm soapy water.

It took me a long time to learn this. The amine blush does not come off with other solvents. Sanding it mostly spreads it around. But washing it first, that works really well.

Trying to help others not go through life not knowing!
 
Sand with 220 grit, then tape over the front with 3M to keep the wood from splintering when you cut out the instrument openings. I used a very nice step drill to open up the switch and CB holes, then reverted to an Xacto knife and Dremel tool for the rectangular ones. Sand again, tack cloth, and a day and a half later a light coat of Pecan stain was carefully wiped over the grain. The Vaseline worked beautifully at keeping the epoxy out of the nutplates.
 

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Wife is at a sewing event all day, it's a good day to get the Traeger out and finish the panel. I decided to use a spray on poly because my past experience with varnishing has been hit or miss and I didn't want to chance ruining the panel at this stage, and I was afraid I'd get runs on the wing panels. It worked great, but I did 5 light coats and 2 heavier ones to finish. Luckily I had the gas turned on for the hangar this week so it's warm inside.

I was a bit overcautious with the epoxy in a couple spots and the veneer is lifting up/didn't attach well, have to keep an eye on them but most of the spots will have screws/switches over them to hold them down. Contact cement might have been a better option after all. (on my next plane...) As expected, you can see where the rivets are for the nutplates, but they will be mostly hidden. I was able to find a piece that almost matches for the landing gear sub-panel, I hope Fuzz from Car SOS will be proud of me.

I made up a box from 3/4" PVC pipe for it to dry in, but on the last coat a kamikaze bug dove into the wet varnish on the bottom edge of the panel. Got most of the little ******* off, but there's a slight smear. grrr...


And as always, wife knows best. I said I'd be done around 7, she said I'll see you at midnight. 2247 now and I'm getting ready to leave.
 

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There's still another couple things to do on the panel before it's done but they will have to wait until the poly dries, I leave on a trip tomorrow so that will give it a good week. Than add labels and a final coat of poly to seal everything.

Would I do it again? I don't know, I'm a bit frustrated by the areas lifting up, I was too worried about applying too much epoxy and having it soak through. I'm already resigned to doing another panel but it will be a plain powder coated one, probably.

On the other hand, I've learned some things, so far have not made a major project killing screwup, and, if I can pull off the next part, it's really going to look cool, even if it only lasts a year. And I've had a **** of a lot of fun doing this, and that's really what it's all about.



edit: day after.
Yeah, I' totally do another veneer panel.
 

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I was hoping this would come out better, but I'm not disappointed with the results. My local trophy and engraving shop has a laser engraver, I stopped by a few weeks ago and talked about what I wanted and they were all for it.

We did a couple practice burns on scrap and then went for it, and that's where it got messed up. We had done the practice on bare wood, when we did the panel Judy put a piece of paper over the wood to absorb any splatters from burning varnish. Unfortunately it meant the laser did not burn as deeply as we thought, and instead of a deep, dark burn we got a deep, light burn. They were really embarrassed, I was slightly disappointed but I'm happy with the results, I was already planning on doing the panel again next winter to fix a couple thing I wanted to do better. In daylight it's a nice, subtle effect, which might even be better. And it might darken down a little bit with a coat of varnish after I add the labels.



moral of the story: fight like you train, practice like you're really doing it.
 

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