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8TW, Difficulty Landing

N

N661DJ

Well Known Member
I recently purchased a TW8 and having difficulty landing. I have over 500 hours in a TW6 and found it to be quite easy to land, this 8 however has a mind of it's own.
Question: I have checked the wheel alignment and found it to have a slight amount of "toe in" (2" over 12') (Grove gear). Talking with others, there seems to be a difference of opinion re: alignment of the mains, some say "Toe in, others say "Toe out"
Also I have a "Silver bullett" tail wheel steering rod, not the chains and springs. There seems to be a small amount of play in the linkage? My 6 had the same arrangement with similar play and was no problem?
I am running 35psi in the mains, would less pressure be advised?
I use 70K over the fence and 3 point landing, would not dare to wheel land at this point.
Thanks for any help
Dick
 
My -8 is setup without toe in or toe out i set up the alignment to track as straight as i could get it . I run 36 PSI and have a SB link .

The -8 doesn't like to 3 point , when I was in phase 1 tried to get a good 3 point landing and never did . Practice 2 point and master it , you will be surprised how easy the -8 is to land in this configuration .
 
Hi Dick,

I have an RV-8 with the Grove gear without any toe in/out. I had to install some shims (you can purchase these from Vans) to correct the alignment.

I have the chains and as long as I keep my feet off the pedals, it tracks true :) . I like to keep the chains loose to allow for rudder deflection prior to tail wheel movement.

I have 110 hours on the plane, the first 50 were all three point landings, the last 60 predominately 2 point landings. The 8 is a lot easier to wheel land than 3 point. I have run my tires at 32 psi and 38 psi. I prefer the 38 psi since it provides me with better feedback on landings.

Feel free to PM me with any questions.

Mike
 
A very low time -8 pilot here and low tail wheel time <50 hours. Our -8 has 0.9 deg of toe in, std grove gear, and chains. We wanted to stay with chains at first to get the feel of them. Tires 35 psi.

Wheel landings are much easier in the -8 and feel in more control. In our transition training with Alex in his -7 there is definitely a much different feel on landing between the two. The -7 cries to 3 pt, the -6 may be the same. Go ahead and wheel land your -8, I have already had a few landings where I could barely feel the wheels touch, I just heard them start rolling. Some others, we won't talk about. :) I have done a few decent 3 pts, but it was on a long runway and haven't done one without at least a little bounce, as the -8 wing is not stalled at 3 pt attitude. I use 75kts to land on our 2500 ft x 50 ft runway which so far feels best. Should ask what pedal arrangement you have, if stock could you be putting brake in without wanting to? We have the solid tube and bolt straight across the pedal, so no brake without toes.
 
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Wade makes a good point about the pedal geometry.

Prior to first flight I made and installed a set of pedal extensions that will comfortably house the ball of my feet. This ensures that brakes are not inadvertently applied during rudder deflection on roll out.

I have also installed spring returns on the top of my master cylinders.
 
N661DJ said:
Question: I have checked the wheel alignment and found it to have a slight amount of "toe in" (2" over 12') (Grove gear).
Click to expand...

Strikes me as being a lot of toe-in. Consider; 70 knots is about 120 feet per second, so every second your tire tries to track 20 inches to the side.

I'm curious, as I too have Grove gear. Did you measure with the tail up on a stand (level flight attitude) or tailwheel on the ground?
 
Think of it like this. If you have toe-in and the aircraft starts to swerve left, the majority of the weight goes naturally to the right wheel. This wheel because of the toe-in is pointed left making the aircraft swerve more to the left.
If you have toe-out and the aircraft starts to swerve left, again the majority of the weight goes to the right wheel. But now because of the toe-out, this wheel is pointed right pulling the aircraft back straight.

The "Whitman geared" RVs all have a slight amount of toe-out due to the geometry of the gear with the weight of the aircraft.

In the early '70s I designed a conventional landing gear for the Moni Motorglider. I initially set it up with toe-in. It was a "bear" on the ground. After reading the above analogy, I shimmed it for a slight amount of toe-out and it immediately became a "pussy cat" with respect to ground handling.
 
Mel you have it exactly right! Watching numerous ground-loops in the act have convinced me this is the case.
 
Toe-in will tend to make it handle squirrely.

My first three landings ever in an RV-8 were 3-pointers, but I had the 200 lb owner in the back seat and that makes a big difference. All my landings in an -8 since then have been wheel landings whether I've got a rear seat passenger or not. The -8 is a piece of cake to wheel land, and I think it is the easiest RV tailwheel model to land of all that I've flown (-4, -6, -7 & -8 models).
 
Echo the comments that 2" in 12 seems like a BUNCH of toe. ESP with the tail in the air.

Also, I will concur that the -8 seems much easier to wheel it on. The rudder seems to be a lot more effective than the tailwheel. I typically keep the tail high on rollout as long as possible, ending with the stick all the way forward and the tail dropping on its own (kind of the opposite of what you do when driving a trike). Not recommending this as a technique with any practical value, but does illustrate the -8 is normally a pussycat running on the mains. It has been my experience that the rudder pedals get more of a workout with the tailwheel on the ground - still not hard, but definitely more active.
 
My suggestion would be to shim your axles so you have as close to zero toe as you can get and maybe switch back to the chains. This would give you a good baseline to start with. The only two RV's I have landed are the 6 and the 8, and I found the 8 to be much much easier. The stiffer landing gear help I think. I am thinking your landing gear geometry may be the issue.

And like everyone else said, wheel it on. The 8 prefers that and its surprisingly much easier than a 3 point in this plane.
 
At the reported offset of 2 inches over 12 feet that makes the degree of toe in 0.8 degrees.

Are you referencing centerline for your 2 inches or the opposite wheel?

Are they both legs the same, referenced to centerline?

Mine is 0.9 degree total, both the same 0.45 degree to centerline, toe in. Measured with tail wheel about 1 foot off of the ground to simulate tail low wheel landing. No handling issues, not squirrely.
 
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The 8 as already mentioned does not really like to 3 point. Wheel landings are a breeze and the only way I was comfortable landing my 8. I have a good friend who post here and has had a few RVs that includes a few 8s with hundreds of tail wheel hours. He 3 point lands his 8 most of the time but he is also the only person I know with 4000 take offs and 10000 landings. Maybe he will jump in to this thread as he is an expert on most RVs but especially the 8.
 
Pat Stewart said:
He 3 point lands his 8 most of the time but he is also the only person I know with 4000 take offs and 10000 landings.
Click to expand...

That is about the correct ratio trying to 3 point an '8'! :rolleyes:

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAAST Team Representative
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
The never ending argument about toe-in vs toe-out.

The old guys on this forum will know who Ladislao Pazmany is. Here is what he has to say:

toe-in.jpg


From his book Landing Gear Design For Light Aircraft

RocketBob and I never miss a chance to argue about this. Personally, I say to err on the side of a small amount of toe-in if you can't get perfect alignment. This is because when you apply the brakes you WILL get more toe-out due to flexing of the gear legs.

I also recommend setting the gear alignment (if it is adjustable) by checking it with the tail down and typical flying weight on the aircraft. In other words, check the plane with the weight of pilot and partial fuel included. This is about right for most cases as flying weights will always vary.

If you're doing this during construction and need weight, Lowe's or Home Depot sells 80# bags of sand. Get some. Use them. Return them undamaged and you've lost nothing!

And finally, just to make your head explode, consider that if the wheels also have much camber, then the alignment will change as the tail raises or lowers. That is why I say to adjust the alignment with the tail down. It's where you'll spend most of your time on the ground. And when the tail is up, loads on the gear are less, and your rudder is powerful, so the minor alignment change will not be a problem like it can be when taxiing.

Enjoy! YMMV!
 
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Wheel landings and 3-point should be equally easy and equally proficient.

I do feel my RV-8 is easier to land the the RV-6 from my transition training but some of that I attribute to the -6 having the small rudder and very loose chains on the tail. I was not very proficient with that much slack. I never made much attribution to toe-in or toe-out but perhaps that too had an effect.
 
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Landing

Thanks for the feed back, appreciated. I have ordered shims from Vans and will adjust to O degrees or as close as I can get. Also a factor that might be part of the problem, I had put 25lbs. on the back baggage shelf, really helped with my 8A landings, will try again without the weight in the 8.
Dick
 
My rocket used to wear a set of michelins bald in 35 hours when it had toe out.

I shimmed it parallel with zero toe in zero toe out. I am past 150 hours with no visible wear and should get over 200hours with no change in driving habits.

Try wheel landings on grass if Pavement spooks you. Most tailwheel ac are 3 x more forgiving on grass.
 
Impressions on 3-pt landing the RV-8

Lots of folks agree the RV-8 does not seem to like to 3-pt land. Some suggest it is better with the c.g. more aft.

I thought I would comment on WHY this might be so. My impression is that when landing the RV-8 at 3-pt attitude, it is not through flying yet. In contrast to, say, a Citabria, you pull the nose up to 3-pt and it settles to the ground and feels secure and planted. But the RV-8, you can grease it on in 3-pt attitude, do everything perfect, and it will feel squirrelly and light on its feet. You feel like you need to still be flying it. You can't brake, because there is no weight on the wheels.

Note: some will read where I said you need to still be flying it, and they will say, "well, that's true of any tailwheel airplane, you need to fly it until it stops." and of course that is true to a degree. What I mean here is that you are still needing to control all three axes with your concentration on 'high' and that is not typical of other taildraggers that I have flown.

It would be interesting to compare the ground pitch attitude of an RV-7 and an RV-8. My impression is that they are similar. So it begs the question, why does the -7 do a nice 3-pt landing, and the -8 does not? My only speculation here is that the wing aerodynamics are unusual near stall because of the flow interactions with the landing gear strut very close to the leading edge. This seems to cause some interesting near-stall buffeting, which is sensitive to the detailed size and shape of the intersection fairing. But I believe that at angles just below stall, the interaction with the gear strut is enhancing lift and delaying separation some. So at 3-pt attitude, it is making more lift than it would otherwise.

A few in the past have installed a curved triangular strake on the fuselage near the wing leading edge and have reported slower landing speeds and better feel during 3-pt landings.
 
I am building an RV-8, but I currently fly a Thorp T-18, which behaves very much like the descriptions I've read here.
The learning curve is steep, and the amount of time available during each landing is brief.
You only get a few seconds per landing to try something new. Also, if your experiment was a poor choice, things can get exciting for a moment, and you might not remember what it was you were trying to change.
My T-18 has short stiff gear. A 3 point landing on a bumpy runway, or a wavy one will re-launch the plane, because, as one poster pointed out, the plane is still @ flying speed. All it needed was an increase in the angle of attack, sufficient to lift it's weight. Then you climb a ways and run out of energy, fall, and begin bouncing. If you re-arrive on the main gear, you porpoise down the runway. If you touch the tailwheel first, you hobby horse down the runway until the tailwheel bounce frequency overcomes the maingear bounce frequency, whereupon you begin to porpoise. Hopefull the speed has been slowing enough to firmly attach the plane to the ground. Now steering and brakes become more effective, then dominant.
For me, the cure has been a 3 point arrival, with a healthy push on the stick to raise the tail when the tailwheel bounces. Now the angle of attack is held down and the plane is not propelled skyward, although the stiff gear may bounce a few times.
That is easier than a wheels landing, because wheels landings are frequently miss-timed. The main gear touch, the tail droops a bit from inertia, so the angle of attack increases and the plane re-levitates. If you 3 point it on, the airspeed is as low as you can get. Then lift the tail to hold the plane on the ground. Hold the tail up until speed has reduced to less than flying speed, then it will lower it'self eventually, even if you have been pushing the stick farther forward to hold the tail up as the plane slows.
This is my experience, which I share, but I'm not an instructor, so don't try this without the appropriate help etc...
Oh, and my RV-8 is sooo close. I'm wiring the panel and adding the placards & labels. Soon, Soon. :)
 
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SHIPCHIEF said:
That is easier than a wheels landing, because wheels landings are frequently miss-timed. The main gear touch, the tail droops a bit from inertia, so the angle of attack increases and the plane re-levitates...
Click to expand...

The "fix" for that is to touch one wheel down before the other - all it takes is a couple of inches. Not only does it act like a "feeler" and buy you time to check the stick forward, as long as the other wheel is in the air there is no inertia acting on the tail- the inertia is transferred to the other wheel.
 
Hey one simple thing I thought of that happened to me this weekend is to check the locking mechanism on the tailwheel. My plane was squirrely this weekend after the tailwheel would come down from a wheel landing and I found out the spring loaded pin that comes out and locks the chain horn/rudder cables to the tailwheel was all gummed up and not extending. Had to clean and re-grease the tailwheel assembly.

Might be something simple to check.
 
Any chance that your landing speed is too high on 3 pointers. Lots of folks add speed to get the"view " and not come in nose high thus adding more speed to the approach and get excited when their not down in 1000 feet of runway.
Try a nice calm evening and slow the plane up to 1.2 power off stall speed and if you have a constant speed prop carry a touch of power during the flare. An old tail wheel pilot told me 45 years ago to try to touch down tail first for if you touch all 3 your probably still flying.

Lots of years flying Beech 18 taught me that sometime that nose seems to be reaching for the sky.. Yes we usually did wheel landing because of landing at major airports and following airliners down final at 170mph and some thought of better control during x/wind conditions but we usually practiced weekly to keep our 3 pointers in practice.. If you keep her straight you had two engines to help also she made beautiful landings...


With practice you'll find a great combination to make great landings.
Smilin' Jack
 
Reading this thread got me to thinking (always a bad thing!). I originally set my toe with the aircraft in the tail-up nattitude; my goal to get it to zero. Touchdown handling has always been very good; rollout requires a lot of attention. I decided to re-check toe today using Dunlop optical equipment left over from my car racing days. With half fuel and pilot only I got 30' toe-out with the tail up and 35' toe-in with the tail down. As you can see that's over 1 degree of toe change with changing attitude.

I'm tempted to put a little more toe-out to make tail-down handling less challenging. Thoughts?
 
3 point landings, T-18 and RV4

SHIPCHIEF said:
I am building an RV-8, but I currently fly a Thorp T-18, which behaves very much like the descriptions I've read here.
The learning curve is steep, and the amount of time available during each landing is brief.
You only get a few seconds per landing to try something new. Also, if your experiment was a poor choice, things can get exciting for a moment, and you might not remember what it was you were trying to change.
My T-18 has short stiff gear. A 3 point landing on a bumpy runway, or a wavy one will re-launch the plane, because, as one poster pointed out, the plane is still @ flying speed. All it needed was an increase in the angle of attack, sufficient to lift it's weight. Then you climb a ways and run out of energy, fall, and begin bouncing. If you re-arrive on the main gear, you porpoise down the runway. If you touch the tailwheel first, you hobby horse down the runway until the tailwheel bounce frequency overcomes the maingear bounce frequency, whereupon you begin to porpoise. Hopefull the speed has been slowing enough to firmly attach the plane to the ground. Now steering and brakes become more effective, then dominant.
For me, the cure has been a 3 point arrival, with a healthy push on the stick to raise the tail when the tailwheel bounces. Now the angle of attack is held down and the plane is not propelled skyward, although the stiff gear may bounce a few times.
That is easier than a wheels landing, because wheels landings are frequently miss-timed. The main gear touch, the tail droops a bit from inertia, so the angle of attack increases and the plane re-levitates. If you 3 point it on, the airspeed is as low as you can get. Then lift the tail to hold the plane on the ground. Hold the tail up until speed has reduced to less than flying speed, then it will lower it'self eventually, even if you have been pushing the stick farther forward to hold the tail up as the plane slows.
This is my experience, which I share, but I'm not an instructor, so don't try this without the appropriate help etc...
Oh, and my RV-8 is sooo close. I'm wiring the panel and adding the placards & labels. Soon, Soon. :)
Click to expand...

I have flown both the RV4 and T-18. Both had O-360 with c/s props. In my opinion they land very differently. I would wheel land the RV with the tail low and still would occasionally bounce. The T-18 on the other hand had a very small tail and has a tendency to pitch down in slow turns such as base to final turns... I would land tail wheel first and with the very stiff gear on the Thorp it would just stick. I never had an issue of bouncing.

I think alot of it has to do with airspeed control......

My two cents worth...
 
On the original post. Sounds like a geometry issue, which others have answered. So I am going to comment on some of the other non-geometry comments.

I do not mean this to be critical to those who choose to wheel land regularly. But I want inexperienced pilots who are thinking about buying an RV-8 to understand this wheel landing versus full stall landing is much ado about nothing. When properly trained, you should be able to full stall or nearly full stall land a tail dragger ALL THE TIME unless the winds are high. Wheel landings are a technique used to overcome higher cross winds, or in the case of aircraft with lousy forward visibility (long noses like the P-51, Spitfire, etc), a way to SEE where you are going. As the RV-8 has outstanding forward visibility even for guys around 5’ 10” or less, wheeling it in is hardly a necessity. Fun, yes! A technique you need to know for those days when the wind is stupid fast, YES. But no easier in my experience, then a performing a standard 3 pointer even in cross winds under 12 or so knots. If nothing else, you will save your tires a lot of abuse - and maybe save your prop. There are real reasons you do NOT want to wheel land all the time. Rough and short fields come immeidately to mind.

I am a bit baffled by this endless tripe about the RV-8 not liking three point landings, while being supposedly "easier" to wheel land. If it was built RIGHT, it will do both with equal aplomb. That may ruffle some feathers but it needs to be understood clearly by any new builder or buyer who is thinking about the RV-8, that when set up properly, the RV-8 can handle either landing type with ease - if anything, the wheel landing takes more effort and better timing/judgement, so you are cheating yourself if you do not master the 3 pointer. And worse, if you do not approach a wheel landing properly, you can destroy your prop. Poor technique or poor equipment location (CG) does not indicate poor design - so if you feel like you HAVE to wheel land an RV-8, something is seriously wrong. Now...why am I pointing this out?

I’ve actually met guys who are AFRAID to 3 point their RV-8 because of all the tripe they’ve read on VAF about the topic. Every time I read about how the bird "prefers" to wheel land I think somewhere, an instructor has not done his job OR, someone is trying to land with trim set to neutral - at a higher than necessary speed. Keep some forward trim. Don't blast across the fence at 80 knots unless the wind demands it, and time the flair in a manner that holds the bird off the ground as long as she will take it. Walla. Three point squeeker in a couple of 100 feet. If the -8 is squirrely on landing you probably came in too hot. When you come in at a proper speed and three point it, she usually rolls out with very little fuss, at a very slow rate of speed. If she still does not perform properly, you probably mounting too much equipment forward or you didn't account for the wind. And to put it into perspective, my own RV has a CS prop, and with a full tank of gas AND a full tank of smoke oil loaded in the forward baggage, flying Solo, she still 3 points easily. Which tells me something is screwy if someone thinks they have to wheel land all the time.
 
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Scott, I don't think that any really experienced -8 pilots will say that you HAVE to wheel land it all the time - you're overstating the case there, and using absolutes sort of blunts your arguments. Of course you can three-point the -8, but it should be understood that it is NOT a full stall landing at that point. If you full-stall it, you'll have a one-pointer (the tail wheel). A three point is simply a special case of a tail-low wheel landing in which you touch the tail wheel at the same time as the mains. In fact, if you read most experienced pilot's posts or notes, they say that the easiest landing is a "tail low" wheel landing.

If you are landing under special conditions (short, soft), then you use the three-point technique because it is appropriate. I routinely land in less than 1,000' using the tail-low wheelie because it works fine.

So why the caution about three-pointers? It has to do with aft CG's - a heavy passenger, for instance. it has been shown that with the CG well after, the stick force gradient goes negative as you slow down below about 65 knots (+/-). A pilot needs to be ready and aware of this or they can over-flare with a passenger. A short, soft landing with aft CG is the most challenging situation, and new pilots need to know that this can occur - I have seen some damaged fuselages because a person was not ready for it. They would have been ready for it if they had discussed this with an experienced -8 pilot.

Use what works best for you, test it in Phase 1. It is definitely NOT a sign of bad instruction or bad transition training if a pilot chooses to use the tail-low wheelie - it is a choice that works well. I agree with you that it is bad if a pilot is scared of any condition in which the airplane can be flown - this IS a sign of incomplete transition training, and should be addressed.
 
Well for what it is worth. My 2 cents worth is you should be able to do all the landings very proficiently that the airplane is capable of. I like to do three point full stall landings and wheel landings. If my three pointers are not full stall at touchdown they are very shortly afterwards because the stick is buried all the way to the rear. I find the RV-8 does three points landings just as well as wheel landings. I also find that the RV-8 is a little more sensitive on directional control than for example the RV 4, 6,7. Having given more than 15000 hours of dual in tailwheel airplanes I would never consider starting someone out with wheel landings in a new tailwheel airplane. Most pilots are not going to be ready to start wheel landing an RV of any kind until they can three point it well. Wheel landings can provide a very smooth touchdown if you are experienced, they are not very forgiving if you botch it. Consider this, one of the ways to recover from a botched wheel landing is to convert it to a three point. If you have a tailwheel RV loaded out of CG to the rear you get pitch reversal which means you will be pushing forward to keep from over rotating or flairing too high while you are touching down. Mike
 
The video below is the landing on the test flight of my RV8 out of a 1000' strip

I chose to 3 point because it was the first landing and the strip is very short.
I have 800+ hours tailwheel (mostly RVs and Pitts) but I tend now to wheel land solo and 3 point 2 up

I have found though that on my aircraft (Fastback and different cowl) that I get heavy buffet at the 3 point position well before the stall which can be unnerving for the PAX!

Solo I can only just get the tailwheel down enough to 3 point as its very nose heavy one up.

I would say that the 8 is not as easy to land as a 4,6 or 7. JMO

Each to his own

Dave

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MwPozNnEg6g
 
Ironflight said:
Of course you can three-point the -8, but it should be understood that it is NOT a full stall landing at that point. If you full-stall it, you'll have a one-pointer (the tail wheel). A three point is simply a special case of a tail-low wheel landing in which you touch the tail wheel at the same time as the mains.
Click to expand...

This would describe all the other tailwheel RVs as well, and the majority of tailwheel airplanes in general. The J-3 and Stearman come to mind as a couple types that sit 3-point just about at the full-stall attitude, but most tailwheel airplanes I've flown are not like this. ...which brings me to my next question:

Ironflight said:
So why the caution about three-pointers? It has to do with aft CG's - a heavy passenger, for instance. it has been shown that with the CG well after, the stick force gradient goes negative as you slow down below about 65 knots (+/-). A pilot needs to be ready and aware of this or they can over-flare with a passenger. A short, soft landing with aft CG is the most challenging situation, and new pilots need to know that this can occur - I have seen some damaged fuselages because a person was not ready for it. They would have been ready for it if they had discussed this with an experienced -8 pilot.
Click to expand...

That is interesting. But it seems like many RV-8 pilots complain about the airplane not wanting to adopt the 3-point attitude when flown solo. Is it simply an airplane where you must get the stick nearly all the way aft to 3-point with a forward CG? I've heard less about the rear CG "problem", as it seems many -8 pilots are only comfortable 3-pointing with a rear CG. The RV-8 is the one tailwheel RV I have not flown, so I'm just curious about it.
 
luddite42 said:
That is interesting. But it seems like many RV-8 pilots complain about the airplane not wanting to adopt the 3-point attitude when flown solo. Is it simply an airplane where you must get the stick nearly all the way aft to 3-point with a forward CG? I've heard less about the rear CG "problem", as it seems many -8 pilots are only comfortable 3-pointing with a rear CG. The RV-8 is the one tailwheel RV I have not flown, so I'm just curious about it.
Click to expand...

As Paul notes there is no problem getting to (or past) three point attitude. On my airplane I do tend to run out of trim however, when flying solo. This perhaps makes it a little more challenging to hold a precise 3-point attitude, due to the need to maintain a bit of back pressure.
 
Toobuilder said:
A search for "A model + flip" may change your mind.

There's more than a few words discussing landing technique in this 35 page monster:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=62724&highlight=model+flip
Click to expand...

I just LOVE it when I am proven wrong.....:)

We then must give credit to those that fly and land "A" models without flipping them. They also must be very skilled pilots.......

When people talk about flying a tail dragger vs a nose dragger, there is no difference till it stops flying...........:eek:
 
Many airplanes have traits that are counter to the norm... The PA-24 is known to "wheelbarrow" due to the large nose tire and general gear geometry. Mooneys also are "difficult" due to the short, stiff gear and long wings. I've flown both and never had a problem, but the Internet and magazines are full of these stories. The bottom line is that discussion about technique, whether its how to do a preflight inspection, navigate through the menus of a glass panel, fly formation, or land an airplane is often warranted and valid.

...heck. I'll bet there is some multiple-page thread somewhere in the Internet discussing the differences in landing a C150 vs. a C172.
 
Alan Carroll said:
As Paul notes there is no problem getting to (or past) three point attitude. On my airplane I do tend to run out of trim however, when flying solo. This perhaps makes it a little more challenging to hold a precise 3-point attitude, due to the need to maintain a bit of back pressure.
Click to expand...

But that sounds like every tailwheel airplane I've ever flown. I still don't understand what's so "difficult" about RV-8s and 3-pointers...other than the negative stick pressure thing at aft CG. I guess I'll just have to fly one sometime. :)
 
Most of my 30 years of flight have been with tail wheel aircraft, most of that on RVs and Rockets. I still get it wrong. I will get a series of perfect 3 pointers, get complacent, and it all goes south. Then I will have a string of perfect wheel landings etc, etc, etc.
When I am in a bad spell I always go back to this method of self correction. Whether you are trying for a wheel landing or a three pointer go back to basics.

1 Establish a long steady descent with a constant steady target airspeed

2. When you smoothly flare, get as close as you can to the runway and try NOT to let the wheels touch.

3 Keep the airplane in the air over the runway until you run out of airspeed and can not keep the wheels off the runway, plunk.

Once you get that right just lower the initial airspeed to reduce the "float" time

With a Big Guy In the Back, BGIB, my worst landings are after a long cross country flight with low fuel. I am tired, the plane is aft loaded, it is almost always a strange runway.
Under these conditions I add 5 to 10 knots to the landing speed, depending on the crosswinds, and I always go for the fly it on wheel landing.

It makes me look good, and more importantly it gets me to the bathroom faster.
 
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luddite42 said:
But that sounds like every tailwheel airplane I've ever flown. I still don't understand what's so "difficult" about RV-8s and 3-pointers...other than the negative stick pressure thing at aft CG. I guess I'll just have to fly one sometime. :)
Click to expand...

Well, actually I don't think it is so difficult. Like Tom I says it's even easier to fly onto the wheels though (which tends to use more runway).
 
I could not agree with this more!

This is exactly my experience as well. And of course, you are only as good as your last one.

Tom Martin said:
Most of my 30 years of flight have been with tail wheel aircraft, most of that on RVs and Rockets. I still get it wrong. I will get a series of perfect 3 pointers, get complacent, and it all goes south. Then I will have a string of perfect wheel landings etc, etc, etc.
When I am in a bad spell I always go back to this method of self correction. Whether you are trying for a wheel landing or a three pointer go back to basics.

1 Establish a long steady descent with a constant steady target airspeed

2. When you smoothly flare, get as close as you can to the runway and try NOT to let the wheels touch.

3 Keep the airplane in the air over the runway until you run out of airspeed and can not keep the wheels off the runway, plunk.

Once you get that right just lower the initial airspeed to reduce the "float" time

With a Big Guy In the Back, BGIB, my worst landings are after a long cross country flight with low fuel. I am tired, the plane is aft loaded, it is almost always a strange runway.
Under these conditions I add 5 to 10 knots to the landing speed, depending on the crosswinds, and I always go for the fly it on wheel landing.

It makes me look good, and more importantly it gets me to the bathroom faster.
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Light on its feet

luddite42 said:
But that sounds like every tailwheel airplane I've ever flown. I still don't understand what's so "difficult" about RV-8s and 3-pointers...other than the negative stick pressure thing at aft CG. I guess I'll just have to fly one sometime. :)
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The key issue in my mind is that it feels so light on its feet. I have not found any other tailwheel airplane that feels so much like it is flying, and just happens to have tires rolling on the ground.
 
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