Like many, I would like to build an RV (probably 7 or 9) someday soon. I have not begun the pilot training yet, but have a question concerning flight training. Instead of paying rental time on someone else's plane, why not build the RV and then do my flight training on it? Of course I'm sure this issue, like everything else here, has been discussed in length and probably has an obvious answer. I'm guessing it may come down to finding an instructor who is willing to climb into an experimental and give instruction. Or does it have to do with FAA licensing, etc.? From my standpoint, why not save thousands by using my own plane and learn on the plane I'll be flying when it's all said and done?
Van's Air Force
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Flight training in an RV
- Thread starter diamond
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BoilermakerRV
Well Known Member
Commercial Operations
One hurdle you will face is that experimental aircraft cannot be used for commercial operations, which would mean you would need to find an instructor willing to teach you for free. At least that's my understanding.
Not sure how that works with the transition training that's offered.
I guess I should defer to others with more experience in this area. Good luck!
One hurdle you will face is that experimental aircraft cannot be used for commercial operations, which would mean you would need to find an instructor willing to teach you for free. At least that's my understanding.
Not sure how that works with the transition training that's offered.
I guess I should defer to others with more experience in this area. Good luck!
One hurdle you will face is that experimental aircraft cannot be used for commercial operations, which would mean you would need to find an instructor willing to teach you for free. At least that's my understanding.
Not sure how that works with the transition training that's offered.
I guess I should defer to others with more experience in this area. Good luck!
Actually that understanding is incorrect (in this context anyway).
Paying an instructor is not a commercial operation of the aircraft and it is perfectly legal.
Renting your RV to a friend for his use while paying an instructor for training is not legal (because of commercial use of the aircraft).
All that aside, there are a lot of good reasons not to use your brand new RV for primary training.. Do a search in the archives. I know it has been discussed before.
BoilermakerRV
Well Known Member
Thanks
Thanks for clarifying Scott.
Thanks for clarifying Scott.
Michael Seager
Active Member
flight training
Michael, Save yourself some grief and expense and get your license in a cessna and then transition to the RV. It will be about 100 hours less flying time. Mike
Michael, Save yourself some grief and expense and get your license in a cessna and then transition to the RV. It will be about 100 hours less flying time. Mike
BoilermakerRV
Well Known Member
Thanks
Thanks Mike. It was actually Matt (diamond) that was asking the question. I've had my PPL since '96.
Thanks Mike. It was actually Matt (diamond) that was asking the question. I've had my PPL since '96.
godspeed
Well Known Member
Its legal
Its perfectly legal to do just that but after the 40 hours or 25 hours of
phase I is flown off, if its your own airplane.. I did just that, I did solo in a cessna 172 1st while my instructor was flying the 40 hours off. and then moved over to the rv9a, mostly the problem is you can't have two onboard
during the phase one testing..
Danny..
Its perfectly legal to do just that but after the 40 hours or 25 hours of
phase I is flown off, if its your own airplane.. I did just that, I did solo in a cessna 172 1st while my instructor was flying the 40 hours off. and then moved over to the rv9a, mostly the problem is you can't have two onboard
during the phase one testing..
Danny..
How much did your instructor charge you to fly off the 40 hrs?
Marshall Alexander
RV10 N781DM
terrykohler
Well Known Member
Flight Training in an Experimental
I can offer flight instruction in an experimental. However, the aircraft itself can't be a commercial endeavor. In other words, we can use your RV, and my charge involves only my instructional time. What I can't do is use my aircraft and charge you a higher rate for my instruction and zero for the plane - the FAA would consider that fraudulent. You are probably aware that there are some instructors offering transition training in their RV's. In order to do this, they must get a "Letter of Deviation" from their FSDO to be legal. This letter involves presenting a syllabus (description of scope of training) to the FAA which, if they accept, reclassifies the aircraft as a commercial endeavor. This results in a requirement for 100 hour inspections as well as an increase in the operators insurance. To my knowledge, these letters so far allow only for transition training - I don't believe a student can solo under these conditions or the plane can be rented out. Don't know if that's been tried.
Also, regarding flight testing, I can have another person on board as long as that person is essential crew. Think of the Airbus A380. Pretty tough to fly, much less test, with just one on board. At the same time, don't bring your buddy along and claim that he's there to record data. Won't work. In my case, I did have my brother join me on about half of my missions. This was OK with the FAA as his qualifications (CFI, CFII, MEI, ATP) exceeded mine and offered meaningful input and assistance during the test phase. One thing to keep in mind during the test phase is that some insurance policies don't begin to offer full coverage until you're finished testing.
Finally, there is nothing to prevent you from building a plane, having someone else flight test it for you (ALWAYS a good idea for pilots with low experience), and then do your flight training in it. The only downside to this approach is that the plane is likely to be subject to some abuse as you're learning to fly it properly. Personally, I'd learn to fly in someone else's, while I was building a RV-9. Good luck
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
I can offer flight instruction in an experimental. However, the aircraft itself can't be a commercial endeavor. In other words, we can use your RV, and my charge involves only my instructional time. What I can't do is use my aircraft and charge you a higher rate for my instruction and zero for the plane - the FAA would consider that fraudulent. You are probably aware that there are some instructors offering transition training in their RV's. In order to do this, they must get a "Letter of Deviation" from their FSDO to be legal. This letter involves presenting a syllabus (description of scope of training) to the FAA which, if they accept, reclassifies the aircraft as a commercial endeavor. This results in a requirement for 100 hour inspections as well as an increase in the operators insurance. To my knowledge, these letters so far allow only for transition training - I don't believe a student can solo under these conditions or the plane can be rented out. Don't know if that's been tried.
Also, regarding flight testing, I can have another person on board as long as that person is essential crew. Think of the Airbus A380. Pretty tough to fly, much less test, with just one on board. At the same time, don't bring your buddy along and claim that he's there to record data. Won't work. In my case, I did have my brother join me on about half of my missions. This was OK with the FAA as his qualifications (CFI, CFII, MEI, ATP) exceeded mine and offered meaningful input and assistance during the test phase. One thing to keep in mind during the test phase is that some insurance policies don't begin to offer full coverage until you're finished testing.
Finally, there is nothing to prevent you from building a plane, having someone else flight test it for you (ALWAYS a good idea for pilots with low experience), and then do your flight training in it. The only downside to this approach is that the plane is likely to be subject to some abuse as you're learning to fly it properly. Personally, I'd learn to fly in someone else's, while I was building a RV-9. Good luck
Terry, CFI
RV-9A N323TP
I am doing.....
precisely this. I finished my RV6 in March. Had the 40 flown off and started instruction in my 6. At first it was a little intimidating, much to learn, but now seems okay. Learning in a tailwheel seems to be the issue. Now have about 25 unassited takeoffs & landings. Airplane is very fast and you have to have your procedures down. I have only flown this airplane, so it's really a matter of what you get use to.
I think a cessna would be a lot easier, I flew one of those at Oshkosh on a simulator. It was like driving a car, no issues with steering, etc. I think an A model would be very doable. Tailwheel will raise stress level a good bit.
Flying my 6 is not an issue. My insturctor says I handle the airplane in flight, communications with tower, power management on constant speed and manuvers well enough to pass a checkride. Just have to get those pesky takeoffs and landings down.
I had to take a break last week to go to New Mexico on the bike, but before I left, I slicked in five good landings last flight. Solo will surely come in ten to fifteen more hours.
It's not easy, requires extreme commitment, focus and one h*ll of a good instructor with great skills and patience.
"Boil that frog, one degree at a time."
precisely this. I finished my RV6 in March. Had the 40 flown off and started instruction in my 6. At first it was a little intimidating, much to learn, but now seems okay. Learning in a tailwheel seems to be the issue. Now have about 25 unassited takeoffs & landings. Airplane is very fast and you have to have your procedures down. I have only flown this airplane, so it's really a matter of what you get use to.
I think a cessna would be a lot easier, I flew one of those at Oshkosh on a simulator. It was like driving a car, no issues with steering, etc. I think an A model would be very doable. Tailwheel will raise stress level a good bit.
Flying my 6 is not an issue. My insturctor says I handle the airplane in flight, communications with tower, power management on constant speed and manuvers well enough to pass a checkride. Just have to get those pesky takeoffs and landings down.
I had to take a break last week to go to New Mexico on the bike, but before I left, I slicked in five good landings last flight. Solo will surely come in ten to fifteen more hours.
It's not easy, requires extreme commitment, focus and one h*ll of a good instructor with great skills and patience.
"Boil that frog, one degree at a time."
I'm sure you checked on this with your local FSDO and got the interpretation in writing Terry, but we all know that not all FSDO's are alike, and there have been numerous written interpretations from the FAA (I think I even saw one for FAA HQ, but can't prove it, so that makes it hearsay...) that says there is No justification for a second person in an RV for a second person during Phase 1. The data-taking function just doesn't wash, as it's just not that complex for a pilot experienced enough to do test flying, and there are even recording systems to get it done. The fact that your pasenger is highly qualified as a pilot doesn't make any difference - one of you is a passenger, and at least my Phase 1 limitations said that passengers weren't allowed.
I'm not disputing that you might have gotten a local interpretation, but that is NOT the way the FAA in general looks at it, and I'd hate for someone to get busted because they read it here on VAF...
Paul
This is the exact same interpretation we get annually in the DAR seminars. If that other person is "more" qualified then he should be there solo.
I have to agree that I've also heard FSDO guys say that it's sometimes acceptable. I even had one tell me that, but bottom line, if something happens, the FSDO's approval probably won't hold much water.
BTW,. I doubt very seriously that they will ever put that in writing. They're not known to be generous with signatures.
terrykohler
Well Known Member
