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Instrument Rating...

ccsmith51

Well Known Member
I am a PPL and have about 1,000 hours, all VFR in non-glass cockpits. I started flying in 1967 and stopped in 1982. I started again in 2004 when I decided to build a Sonex. I flew that for 150 hours and then bought an RV-4. I flew that for a couple hundred hours and sold it and bought an RV-6. I flew that for a couple hundred hours then sold it.

I'm 65 now, and being retired I have time on my hands. I thought about going back to school (I live about 10 miles from UCF, where I graduated in 1973 when it was still FTU!!), but then I thought maybe I should go for an instrument rating.

So, a few questions for y'all:

1) Am I too old to take on such an undertaking?
2) How much can I do on my own, and how much do I need ground school for?
3) I've seen concentrated courses offered, for high sums. Are they worth the money, and do they teach you how to fly IFR, or just how to pass the written and flight exam?
4) Any other things I should be thinking of or considering?

Thanks!!
 
I am a PPL and have about 1,000 hours, all VFR in non-glass cockpits. I started flying in 1967 and stopped in 1982. I started again in 2004 when I decided to build a Sonex. I flew that for 150 hours and then bought an RV-4. I flew that for a couple hundred hours and sold it and bought an RV-6. I flew that for a couple hundred hours then sold it.

I'm 65 now, and being retired I have time on my hands. I thought about going back to school (I live about 10 miles from UCF, where I graduated in 1973 when it was still FTU!!), but then I thought maybe I should go for an instrument rating.

So, a few questions for y'all:

1) Am I too old to take on such an undertaking?
2) How much can I do on my own, and how much do I need ground school for?
3) I've seen concentrated courses offered, for high sums. Are they worth the money, and do they teach you how to fly IFR, or just how to pass the written and flight exam?
4) Any other things I should be thinking of or considering?

Thanks!!

No comment on #1, I don't think it is relevant.
2. You can do a lot. Look up the reference materials from Dougs venture in to this and you can download all the FAA pubs. Great as they are searchable. You may want a ground school, but I studied on my own, asked the instructor and studied each practice question until I knew what the regs meant inside out.
3) Not for me, too fast and not enough retention for keeping me alive, YMMV
4) It will take relearning to fly the airplane completely. It is a mental exercise learning new cues reading feedback.

Suggestion: get a good instructor, get all the books from FAA, talk about a structured self learning program and ask many questions each time you meet. Beginning to fly is good to do at the same time. You may need more than one instructor. I learned some special skills from three different guys. Different teaching and learning methods.

Get started, then decide. It is all about judgement and decisions anyway. You can learn the skills.
 
Many years back, I bought set of books from Jeppesen, a Gleim study guide and a book of FARs. Lot of study and reading. I got the required 20 hours of instrument instruction, the remainder of simulated time with friends. An instructor signed me off for the written, got a 92. Signed me off for the flying, passed that. During the exam, I flew my first actual IFR.
Can be done on your own but it does take dedication and lots of study. The newer programs will explain many of the rules, regulations and procedures much clearer than you might figure on your own.
Ten years later I took a 6 or 8 week commercial and instrument class at the local FBO. They also used a book of FARs and a Gleim study guide. I was flying about 200 hours a year traveling several states in my business, pretty much in any flyable weather. The instrument part was to brush up on the rules, I went ahead and got the commercial license. Much less study this time, I answered two questions incorrect. Both had something to do with helicopters--go figure.
 
I just got my ticket 2 weeks ago. You've got 10 years on me, but I don't really think it is age limiting. It really depends upon your ability to learn and retain. I've met 20 year old's that struggled to learn and 80 year old's that soak knowledge like a sponge. There is a lot of knowledge for IFR, not just flying skill.

I did not go for a ground school. I chose the self-study route, as that works best for me. I read the FAA Instrument publication twice, as well as used the internet for clarification/elaboration where I needed/desired it. The test is based almost completely from this book.

I used Sheppard Air for test prep. It is a good tool that will help you with a passing score and will also help with your knowledge level if used in the proper way. It is not a stand alone learning tool though. It is focused on passing the test. In my opinion, the FAA test is designed to be difficult and not necessarily to test knowledge.

I went through the Sheppard material several times and always researched any question that I could not answer with retained knowledge vs. memory recall. I scored a 95.

I used a traditional approach to training and not a concentrated school, so can't speak to both. What I liked about traditional training was that I could practice in between sessions with a safety pilot. This lowered my cost (less than 20 hours dual) and allowed me to process, practice and solidify key things between lessons. I am sure a concentrated program could work well, but your paying an instructor for every hour and there is no decompress time to let your knowledge "soak" so to say. You also run the risk that they just push you toward enough skill to pass the ride, but not fully understand the concepts.

Take holds for example. I would follow the instructors guidance and do good holds. Then I tried them with a safety pilot. Ouch, not so good. It then force me to think more about what I learned and apply it on my own. I would then get any needed remedial guidance during my next lesson. Once I could successfully do something on my own (w/ safety pilot), I knew I had it.

A few of my safety pilots were IFR rated and also gave me interesting ideas and suggestions during my practice.

The downside to this approach is that sometimes more time than desired elapses between sessions and this can slow down the learning process. You just need to manage it.

I recommend doing the training in the plane you plan to fly. I could not imagine doing this training in a 6 pack 172, then trying to fly my EFIS-based RV-6 in the clouds. The flip side is that I am un-prepared to fly a 6 pack plane, but would consider it child's play to fly a plane with the inherent stability of a 172.

As a new instrument pilot, you will need some time to get used to the neutral stability of the RV when flying on instruments. It took me quite a while before I could look away from the instruments for more than a few seconds during my early training. You won't get this in a 172 and you'll need to pick it up at some point. You could do it later, but when incorporated with your basic training, you will be more proficient when you get your ticket. If you don't master this, you'll become dependent on your autopilot, so you'll need to work on it at some point.

The flipside to this is that your basic attitude flight training will go faster in a 172. I can remember my early flights and I was yards behind the airplane.

Best of luck in your pursuit here. I found it to be a challenging and rewarding process.

Larry
 
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Sounds like you've made the decision to do something - the only question is back to school or instrument rating. In my book, they are the same thing. The better question is what activity in your life do you want to learn more about? In either scenario, you run the risk (small in both cases I'd imagine) of not passing. But along the way you'll gain a ton of knowledge and experience.

You're asking a bunch of airplane freaks whether to spend more time in the air. The obvious answer from us is yes. :D

Sounds like you've got time and money on your hands. Unless you've got no intention of ever flying cross country (only local area), I can't see a reason not to improve your skills with an instrument rating.

Just make sure you're having fun. Many people getting the rating are turned through a sausage factory of training. You'll probably benefit from finding an instructor who can integrate the "training" into your current flying. If you treat each flight like a cross country, you'll look forward to the training and might even grab a coffee or pancake along the way.
 
1. No, but you'll quickly decide that for yourself. I was 48 when I got my rating and could easily see that for me it would have been easier when I was younger. It's not the book material but the application of that material (rules and procedures) while attempting to fly with greater precision (attitude flying). Very hard for me at first but it got easier wit practice.
2. I went through a Cessna Pilot Center part 141 program centered on the Garmin G1000. That program used the King IFR curriculum and their on-line IFR program which is entirely self-paced. I got a 98 on my written.
3. To clarify there's two kinds of "concentrated" courses: the weekend cram courses to get you through the written (I don't recommend this because I question whether you are really learning anything-my personal opinion) and the 10-day Instrument Rating courses (eg PIC, GATT, etc). These are fine but not for everyone due to the pace and amount of material (you also need to have passed the written and met most of the part 61 aeronautical experience requirements before showing up).
4. Try to take your checkride in the same plane with the same equipment you trained on. Download and review IR ACS and the FAA IFR books (Instrument Flying Handbook, etc).

Buckle-up it's a heck of ride but one of the most rewarding things you'll accomplish in an airplane.
 
Chris,

I think asking yourself a couple questions may help the decision.

1) Do you like learning? Given the comments in your initial post, I would assume that's a yes, and in that case, you're never too old. Getting the IFR rating (and flying IFR) is a lot more analytical than flying VFR - it feels to me a lot more like a video game than 'slipping the surly bounds' but it is not rocket science either.

2) Why do you want the rating? Are you planning on flying IFR flight plans routinely, do you want it just to be a safer pilot, do you just want the letters after your name? No wrong reasons, but unless you are going to use the rating frequently, it will be hard to retain the info from a crash course.

3) How do you learn best in other areas? I like to learn on my own, and as others have mentioned, if you do as well, you can get a lot of the ground school material free from the FAA. If you like the structure or social aspect of a classroom, then you may enjoy that more. The FAA pubs read pretty much like stereo instructions.
 
So, a few questions for y'all:

1) Am I too old to take on such an undertaking?
2) How much can I do on my own, and how much do I need ground school for?
3) I've seen concentrated courses offered, for high sums. Are they worth the money, and do they teach you how to fly IFR, or just how to pass the written and flight exam?
4) Any other things I should be thinking of or considering?

Thanks!!

1. I doubt it. It doesn't take too long if you stick to a regular schedule of lessons.
2. I used the King Instrument rating course for the ground school portion and I scored quite well on my written exam. Well worth it for the money.
3. I doubt it. I just found a good instructor who was willing to fly twice a week and ended up paying only about 1500 for instruction to get the rating.
4. Try to do as much of your flight instruction in actual IMC as you can. The hood is actually a rather poor simulation, as you will find out.
 
If you're not doing it already get flight following on every flight and fly into busy airspace. Listen closely to all comms. Monitor ground clearance freqs. I found that listening to IFR clearances, instructions and procedures was immensely helpful getting comfortable in the IFR "system". Plus you'll get vectored around and have to simultaneously read back and act on instructions.

A great IFR training resource for ground is the YouTube series done by PilotEdge. Lots of other great YouTube training but theirs is very thorough.
 
Instrument Training Chicago

Larry, it looks like you managed to find a CFII in Chicago that was willing to provide glass panel instruction in your plane in the Chicago area. I got my instrument ticket on steam gauges a few years ago but am now flying my recently completed -10 with a G3X setup, so I'll need some training to get back in the saddle. Would you mind sharing your instructor's contact info via PM so as not to hijack this thread?
 
IFR 150

Chris,

Bill Wright who owns the RV Quick build factory in the Phillipines now has an IFR 150 based in Apopka. I had heard he and his partner in the plane were going to be renting it out. There are a couple of good IFR instructors based at Apopka as well. He has a hangar full of cool projects and he knows a little bit about rvs. Hope this helps.
 
You have gotten a lot of good responses so far but I am going to see if I can add a couple of things. I used to teach a lot of IFR and one of the things that seemed to help make the process go faster is if you can find someone else about your age that wants to get their IFR at the same time. By doing this you will have someone to bounce questions off of and someone to fly under the hood with, it will teach you both a lot. Your age should not be a factor unless you let it be.
 
Enjoy

"3) I've seen concentrated courses offered, for high sums. Are they worth the money, and do they teach you how to fly IFR, or just how to pass the written and flight exam?"

Lots of good responses, I'm just going to comment on #3. Nearly every pilot that has an Instrument rating agrees it is the most enjoyable to obtain. I'm glad I spent the time working with an instructor and absorbing the material over time. I would have felt cheated if I had taken the fast track courses. For some pilots working their way to professional careers, it might be a different story of course. Just a rung on the ladder.

Getting an Instrument rating makes you a better, more precise pilot regardless of if you ever depend on it in real IMC. That's where the rubber meets the road so if you get the rating and the decide to bust through the occasional layer, only use it with a second pilot, or only keep current, it's a lot of fun and time well spent.

Craig
 
I'm a CFII. My 84 year old father wanted to start flying again after a 50 year hiatus. During the usual critique after a lesson he said," You just think I'm too old." I told him," It's not your age. It's your attitude. This sh*t can kill you."

Know your limits and retain a healthy respect for the risks. If you do that you should find the instrument rating challenging and rewarding.

I would recommend a good video ground course followed by a live weekend course through somebody like Sporty's before trying the air work. You need to have the academics down before you start wandering through the ether under a hood.

Next I recommend a local instructor who is not just building time for an airline job. If you are lucky you may find a retired career pilot (ex-USAF or ex-airlines) who can identify with your needs.

Good luck, and go for it!

Rich
 
It's not age that matters

I don't think age is the important issue. I learned to fly at age 63 in a citabria, got an instrument rating at age 65 in a Liberty XL2, then found out about RVs. Finished building an RV8 at age 68 and now at 75 still fly from Florida to Wyoming, Texas, Wisconsin, And many other States both VFR and IFR as well as Gentleman aerobatics and some formation. Go for it!
 
...before trying the air work. You need to have the academics down before you start wandering through the ether under a hood.

Rich

+1 In fact I recommend getting the written out of the way before flying. The ATC instructions will make more sense. If you can't get past the written then you know that maybe this isn't for you, before spending a lot of money.
A few years ago I was the 64 year old cfii for a 68 year old fellow -10 pilot who wanted to finish up his instrument rating. He did fine, including, on his long instrument x/c, an ILS in close to actual minimums (230'- 3/4 mi Vis).
 
THANK YOU ALL!!!

Thanks to all for the thoughtful and very helpful comments.

I do like to learn, and I have the time so I figure even if I don't go all the way with the ticket, I'll still learn a lot about the system.

I think I will work on my own on the written, there has been a lot of encouragement for that. Also, a friend has an IFR RV-6 and just got his instrument rating, and he is more than willing to help me. We fly in the Orlando airspace and it amazes me the amount of discussion on the radio with departure, approach, etc. and sometimes my head spins trying to decipher what they are saying, they talk so fast!

So, my project for the summer is to work on the written and if I pass that and decide to continue, find an instructor and to to work in the air.

Thanks again to everyone!
 
"3) Nearly every pilot that has an Instrument rating agrees it is the most enjoyable to obtain.

Count me as one of the few then that didn't find Instrument training enjoyable--it was a real PITA. I was however, immensely satisfied once I passed the checkride. I also derive great satisfaction after shooting an approach in IMC, but enjoyable, not particularly. For me the rating and IFR flying is just a means to an end, nothing more and the enjoyable flying is done VFR. YMMV....
 
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. We fly in the Orlando airspace and it amazes me the amount of discussion on the radio with departure, approach, etc. and sometimes my head spins trying to decipher what they are saying, they talk so fast!

So, my project for the summer is to work on the written and if I pass that and decide to continue, find an instructor and to to work in the air.

Thanks again to everyone!

Talking and understanding the rapid fire instructions you get is a hurdle but not a huge one. You might be surprised how quickly you pick it up. My instructor taught me to remember that 95% of ATC instructions follow a standard pattern and once you know the pattern your brain will start to pick out the relevant information rather easily. If you get an instruction that breaks the mold there is no shame in asking for clarification.

I recommend, if you have a decent PC flight simulator like XPlane, that you also try PilotEdge. The controllers running it are very good (they get paid) and the experience is pretty true to life as far as communication goes.

If you don't have a PC flight sim, get one and use it to practice approaches. It helped me a lot.
 
Count me as one of the few then that didn't find Instrument training enjoyable--it was a real PITA. I was however, immensely satisfied once I passed the checkride. I also derive great satisfaction after shooting an approach in IMC, but enjoyable, not particularly. For me the rating and IFR flying is just a means to an end, nothing more and the enjoyable flying is done VFR. YMMV....

I absolutely hated flying a sim. It was nothing like the real thing, and since I owned my C-172, I always chose to fly that instead. I had a lot of fun flying around with an instructor in actual, but I didn't like hood work all that much.

Still, I'm so glad I did it! We like to fly to breakfast and living only a couple of miles from the beach makes it easy to stay on top of my game.

Lately socal approach has been obviously doing a lot of training, and some of the "newer" controllers just don't know how to handle a faster plane like an RV. We get a good laugh out of some of their blunders!

-Marc
 
My mom got her IFR ticket at age 77

She said she had to work harder and practice more, but she was ultimately successful and flew IFR in Southern California -- a notoriously complex bit of airspace. She regarded the mentally strenuous practice flights as cognitive therapy, and I was tremendously proud of her persistence.

Dave Hirschman
Frederick, Maryland
RV-3
 
Thanks to all for the thoughtful and very helpful comments.

I do like to learn, and I have the time so I figure even if I don't go all the way with the ticket, I'll still learn a lot about the system.

I think I will work on my own on the written, there has been a lot of encouragement for that. Also, a friend has an IFR RV-6 and just got his instrument rating, and he is more than willing to help me. We fly in the Orlando airspace and it amazes me the amount of discussion on the radio with departure, approach, etc. and sometimes my head spins trying to decipher what they are saying, they talk so fast!

So, my project for the summer is to work on the written and if I pass that and decide to continue, find an instructor and to to work in the air.

Thanks again to everyone!

I would also recommend a good IFR book. These do a good job of outlining everything related to IFR flying and will make you much better prepared for all aspects of the training. They cover everything you will be doing in your training. I read two of these before starting my training and they left me much better prepared for the training.

Let me know if you want a recommendation.

Larry
 
I would also recommend a good IFR book. These do a good job of outlining everything related to IFR flying and will make you much better prepared for all aspects of the training. They cover everything you will be doing in your training. I read two of these before starting my training and they left me much better prepared for the training.

Let me know if you want a recommendation.

Larry

Would love a recommendation, Larry, thanks!
 
If I were to buy only one, which would you suggest?

Thanks

That's a tough one - either Gardner or Kershner. I suggest taking a look at the examples over at ASA: http://www.asa2fly.com/Author-Index-C72.aspx and see if one seems to appeal to you more than the other.

Weather Flying by Robert Buck is not about learning instruments at all, it's about learning to fly weather which you'll learn is critical to IFR flying. And this might be counter intuitive to the non-instrument rate pilot, but the go/no-go decision process with respect to weather is significantly more complex than it's cloudy so I'll just file IFR and fly.
 
Instrument rating.....

Would be a lengthy note but in short, go for it, do most on your own...you can always call it off if you change your mind. I fly a lot for a GA pilot, 40 years, owned many planes...one is now a RV6A, which I just finish equipment install for IFR flight. Oh, and I'm a CFII. PM me if you'd like to discuss, fee free over the phone and I'll pass on the wisdom:)

Dan Valle
 
Cessna/King Interactive

Chris,

Looks like you have a Cessna Pilot Center with a Redbird AATD at Orlando Downtown airport.

The interactive Cessna Pilot Center/King course is much better than the old videos that were used just for passing the written exam. This system allows you to learn the information at your own pace and then transfer the knowledge directly to the SIM/airplane. The videos in each lesson actually show live footage of flying the Cessna so when you get to the airplane/sim you already know what the lesson is for the day.

I believe the FAA reinstated the allowance of logging 20 hours towards the instrument rating in the AATD. I did mine this way and you can fly many more procedures in a much shorter time in the SIM. It is a much better environment to learn environment than the actual airplane at half the price. Once I got the 20 hours of sim time in I was basically just repeating everything in the airplane to get the minimum 10 hours of airplane time burned off for the practical test.

Might be worth stopping by to see what kind of program they have. King also has information about the Cessna course here:

http://cessnaflighttraining.kingschools.com/ifr/

Andy
 
Just a comment on the accelerated school approach. I chose this route after seeing many friends go to the local FBO and work on the rating for six months minimum, and many gave up. The problem most had was only finding time to fly once every couple of weeks due to work, family, and other commitments. This may not become a problem as you are retired (congratulations!). For me, still busy working for the man, the accelerated approach made sense. I used King Schools to pass the written (92% or so I recall). I followed this with an eight day program flying a 172RG. The training was excellent, included some actual, and came in on promised budget. For me it worked great and I left felling well trained.

Just my experience...

Bill
 
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