What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

G2 on Factory RV-12s

E

Ex Bonanza Bucko

Well Known Member
New to the forum. I'm on the list at Van's for a factory RV12. I am looking for input and info on anything related to that.

I am an old (75) pilot who is selling is V35A Bonanza after 29 years and 2500 hours in it. As a family we have owned 7 airplanes in the last 40 years and restored two: a PA17 Vagabond and a 1946 C-140. We have the 140 and a Bucker Jungmann at KSEE in El Cajon, Ca. (San Diego).

Please give me any advice you have. I intend to go to Van's in September for a demo ride in an RV12.
Thanks,
Bruce
 
Mike:
Thanks. Nice to be here. We lived in Granite Bay (SAC) for ten years in the 1990s. Nice place. Used to fly into Cameron Park for breakfast a lot. We were based at Q94 (Rio Linda)then.
Bruce
 
Bruce.. welcome aboard. I too went for a demo ride a couple years ago and decided to build one. I think you will learn a lot in the demo. It flies great. I had a chance to look at a factory bird in Denver a couple months back at the LSA expo. They did a really nice job building those planes. The finish was just awesome.

As far as comparing it to your previous flying experience.. I am a sport pilot with a small amount of time in "traditional" aircraft, 172 Cardinal, Piper Tri-Pacer tailwheel conversion. I would say the biggest difference you will experience is just related to the fact that the -12 just like all LSA's is light. Landings in my current LSA versus those other GA planes takes a little more finesse. Some may argue the point but it just takes a bit more to get a LSA smoothly on the ground in my opinion.

I hope you enjoy your factory tour and flight and your new plane.

Carl
 
Bruce, my 12 has been flying about 16 months, and I love it more every day. You made a great choice! Of course flying for $17/ hr fuel cost versus $52/hr in my Cherokee endears it even more! :)
 
Rich:
Thanks! I am looking forward to the RV12. I have never flown an RV but I have a bunch of buddies who own and love them.
Ditto on the gas! My Bonanza costs me (15galX$6.50) $98/hr. I think I will like 5 gph at car gas prices.
EBB
 
Bruce, you will love the -12. My background was all "traditional" aircraft until I went with my CT 6 years ago, which I have enjoyed.

My -12 is not done yet but I can tell you that after several experiences in my neighbors -12 that the -12 handles much better than the CT plus it out runs and out climbs it.

Sure, it won't match the Bonanza but rest assured, your flying enjoyment is not over.
 
I went from a V-35 to the RV12. You are going to FLOOOOOOAAAAAAATTTTTT until you get used to the very slow approach speeds! I would advise adding the AOA mod you find here http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=34040. Starting on page 2. You might even have get the factory to do it for you, takes $12 in parts and maybe an hour to install if you do it while building - maybe 2 hours afterwards. The Skyview has AOA capability built in, just needs the sensor line screwed in. Also have them cut the hole in the tank for the Moeller fuel gauge if they will or just install it. Vans has said for those of us that are building, that you can cut the hole and fabricate a cover plate as if it is a repair, then easily slip in the gauge after certification - 5 minute job. I Miss the Bonanza for some things but LOVE the 12!
 
Bill:
Thanks! I appreciate your input. I will miss the Bonanza after all those years and hours but it's time that I not go fast and high with three other people. I look forward to the RV12. I was a CFI (as a hobby) for about ten years and I got used to every other airplane there is, it seems...twins and all. Then we had five tail draggers and our son still has two. I am looking forward to flying the RV....a lot. It's an amazing airplane from its numbers and undoubtedly better than that once it's been flown.
BB
 
Bruce,

I vote for the AOA but remember, you are buying a "factory" built SLSA as opposed to the "homebuilt" ELSA most of us have.

This means that unless the AOA was on the option list and your's didn't come with it, you will need factory approval. That goes for any modification you want to make that wasn't on the option list.

Also, unlike the ELSA that can be inspected by the owner with a 16 hour course, SLSA's require the 120 hour course, or an A&P, for annual condition inspections.

These things may not be relevant to your situation, but all -12 SLSA purchasers need to be aware.
 
For S-LSA are STCs required for mods like these? Some mods are so minor a certified mechanic can do them without an STC. I expect these might qualify - things like adding a power port for headphones or a GPS, that kind of thing. Then come STC mods ("field approval?") then what - some special FAA regional STC process ? Or is that a "major modification" thing? I forget the order... And of course. The FAA has recently been encouraging installation of AOAs on certified aircraft. Which is sooooooo simple on a Dynon-equipped RV12.
 
For the LSA world there are no STC's. And, just because an A&P has done certain minor mod's hundreds of times, he can't do it to an SLSA unless the manufacturer approves it through the manual or an LOA (Letter of Approval). These can take the form of a fleet wide LOA or they can be more confining.

Forget much of what you know as it applies to "traditional" aircraft regulation wise. The maintenance manual for an SLSA will spell out tasks that can be done and by who - LSRM, A&P etc. If it is not in the book, then it is a major repair which the manufacturer must define method, materials, and who can do the repair.

I would hope that Vans would issue fleet LOA's for such things as AOA, canopy locks, parking brakes, etc.

Technically, adding power ports would require an LOA. Adding a panel mount radio, GPS, instruments, etc require an LOA.

Many won't like what I just posted but I think you will find it is correct.
 
Mr. Sandpiper is correct. In many ways SLSA rules are stricter than certified aircraft.

The one way in which you can do mods without factory approval would be to re-certificate the aircraft as an ELSA under 21.191(i)(3).

After that, factory restrictions are removed, but the aircraft may no longer be used for compensation.
And it would most likely, depending on the prospective buyer, reduce the resale value of the aircraft.
 
Last edited:
Mel said:
Mr. Sandpiper is correct. In many ways SLSA rules are stricter than certified aircraft.

The one way in which you can do mods without factory approval would be to re-certificate the aircraft as an ELSA under 21.191(i)(3).

After that, factory restrictions are removed, but the aircraft may no longer be used for compensation.
And it would most likely, depending on the prospective buyer, reduce the resale value of the aircraft.
Click to expand...


IMO, unless you are planning to use the aircraft for compensation, I believe the much better value is to look for a well built ELSA or EAB LSA. As previously stated, you have much more flexibility with mods and can purchase these aircraft for at least $20-30k below SLSA prices. Hire someone like Mel to conduct the pre-purchase and if it passes muster...you hit a home run.
 
Gotta agree with that! Take a weekend course and do your own inspections, do all your own work - or not! The factory planes are pretty but I've seen plenty of -12s that are nicer. There was one for sale on the forum a couple of days ago. I personally do not see the attraction of S-LSA if there is an E-LSA version but I do think that S-LSA RV-12s are a very good thing for the E-LSA RV-12 fleet.
 
AND..........

I know this is a very small thing, but ELSAs may use 3" N numbers.
SLSAs require 12".
 
Also, some insurance companies like Avemco, will not take on new SLSA policies. They will, however, insure an ELSA -12. When I asked if they would continue to insure my SLSA CT if I converted to ELSA, they said no. But my -12 is not a problem. I asked why and they mumbled something about then I could start making changes to the CT. I said that would be the case on my -12 but they said that was OK. Go figure!

I switched.
 
Factory RV-12 "owner" right now

Been flying one of the first 12 factory RV-12s and am in love with it. Great handling (what else would you expect?), excellent performance, good load-carrying capacity. I have lots of good things to say about it. About 110 knots on 4.3 gph.

Any specific questions?
 
Mel said:
Mr. Sandpiper is correct. In many ways SLSA rules are stricter than certified aircraft.

The one way in which you can do mods without factory approval would be to re-certificate the aircraft as an ELSA under 21.191(i)(3).

After that, factory restrictions are removed, but the aircraft may no longer be used for compensation.
And it would most likely, depending on the prospective buyer, reduce the resale value of the aircraft.
Click to expand...

Thanks Mel. This is complex and not completely understood by most of us coming from a lifetime of "traditional' aircraft. Since you are well known and respected on this forum, and I hardly post at all, your support probably saved a lot of posting.
 
Jzimmerman said:
Been flying one of the first 12 factory RV-12s and am in love with it. Great handling (what else would you expect?), excellent performance, good load-carrying capacity. I have lots of good things to say about it. About 110 knots on 4.3 gph.

Any specific questions?
Click to expand...

What top speed are you seeing?

Jerre
 
good numbers??

Jzimmerman said:
Been flying one of the first 12 factory RV-12s and am in love with it. Great handling (what else would you expect?), excellent performance, good load-carrying capacity. I have lots of good things to say about it. About 110 knots on 4.3 gph.

I get about 5.7 to 6.0 gal per hour on all the RV-12s I been flying (many) at that cruise speed. Mike
Click to expand...
 
With wheel pants I get 122 kts TAS at 5.0 gph at about 5450rpm. I was getting 118 or so without the wheel pants. Typically a couple hundred pounds less than gross. Prop pitch has the most to do with cruise speed, I think. Lttle changes, big difference. That last 200 pounds of weight also makes a big difference in takeoff performance.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top