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Loose Main Gear Legs

Another One

For those convinced I am just making this all up, here is another wrinkled skin plane photo, I have no permission to publish the owners name or his plane number. Note again the brake line was smashed from the rearward deflection.
2rem687.jpg
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How original, if you don't like the message - discredit the messenger!
I have not been judgmental about this, my plea was ONLY if you look back, to encourage others with such info to share it. Two of the wrinkled skin planes were informing me in confidence, and did not want their plane number or themselves identified for their own reasons. I will honor that. In one case the owner was going to sell his plane, and felt that such information would decrease its value. I have no dog in the fight, in fact making the information public will only serve to reduce the value of my own 12. I love education, for instance notice the title of this thread is loose mlg legs, that was the first impression of the cause from others.
In the interest of safety, the photo was posted so that others might glance at that area once in a while, since it CAN crack in that well hidden area, and has on at LEAST two cases with a fairly small number of flying RV12s.

No one is discrediting you Don, and I thank you for bringing this to light.
 
Bob, You would need to land it a lot harder than what you did before you would see any damage. I can asuure you that 412RV has had lots of workout and experienced no damage. Mike


You can't state it was fatigue unless you cut out the cracked areas and send them off to the met lab for fracture face inspection and analysis.

P.S. In my 43 landings this week, I gave the ole gear a purty good work-out...... Never saw any wrinkles (maybe I didn't look hard enough....)

Bob Bogash
N737G
 
Don It might be interesting to know more about the events that took place to create this damage. From my experience these planes are not too fragile. Lots of conclusion anbd speculation. One would need to evaluate each case to find out a cause and effect. Mike

For those convinced I am just making this all up, here is another wrinkled skin plane photo, I have no permission to publish the owners name or his plane number. Note again the brake line was smashed from the rearward deflection.
2rem687.jpg
[/IMG]
 
I went out and inspected my plane for cracks as seen in the picture. I did not remove the nut to look under it .but the other 2 cracks can be seen with a mirror and a flashlight. I am in the middle of doing my 3rd annual. As some of you know I was the first to customer built to get Airworthied and fly (9-20-2009). I have 400 hours on this plane and fly off a grass strip.

And NO I did not have a bad landing. I did however have an incident that could have added to this problem. I was landing on a paved runway and started braking hard to get slowed down for the turn off when the left wheel started skidding and chatterting the left gear leg. (crack is on the left)This hammering back ond forth would put some real pressure on that front hole. I got off the brakes right away and really thought nothing of it at the time. This incident happened 2 years ago. I am glad that this was brought to our attention. This is a new design so one could expect things to show up with use. I dont believe it hurts the value of the aircraft. What hurts the value would be to do nothing and pretend the problem does not exsist.

I do not have the skin wrinkle that has been shown on this forum.

We need to get a fix worked out. I will be talking with my machinist brother about making a threaded bracket that hooks on to the top of the channel. (just in the thinking stage no drilling required)) Lets work togather and get this resovled.

I would be interested in hearing what others are doing for a fix. I guess if I did not have cracks I would still want to reinforce before it does. I will be doing something with the right side that is not cracked. I cant help but think that justing hitting a hole taxing could do this.

My incident was 2 years ago. Could I have missed it on my last annual ?? Very possible.

Brad Stiefvater
Salem SD
 
Stub Spars

Don
IF the center Chanel F-1024 Rotated to cause this damage and the wing spar is pined to it, is there any sign of damage to the spar bushing or the Stub Spars.

Added Note: I was about to install the bottom skin when I seen this thread, I will hold off and work around this step until all the facts are in.

Big Washer www.joesrv12.com/rv12/photo/bigwasher.jpg

Here are a couple of photos of the damage, kinda hard to determine just what happened first.
210lp1g.jpg
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k9b8er.jpg
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Thanks Brad, this exactly the contribution type I was asking for in this thread revival. Yours makes three KNOWN cracked center sections now. Any chance of a photo to share with us? Several of us are working on proposed solutions, a doubler on the side skin plus some reinforcement around the hole area cutout of the center channel.

I went out and inspected my plane for cracks as seen in the picture. I did not remove the nut to look under it .but the other 2 cracks can be seen with a mirror and a flashlight. I am in the middle of doing my 3rd annual. As some of you know I was the first to customer built to get Airworthied and fly (9-20-2009). I have 400 hours on this plane and fly off a grass strip.

And NO I did not have a bad landing. I did however have an incident that could have added to this problem. I was landing on a paved runway and started braking hard to get slowed down for the turn off when the left wheel started skidding and chatterting the left gear leg. (crack is on the left)This hammering back ond forth would put some real pressure on that front hole. I got off the brakes right away and really thought nothing of it at the time. This incident happened 2 years ago. I am glad that this was brought to our attention. This is a new design so one could expect things to show up with use. I dont believe it hurts the value of the aircraft. What hurts the value would be to do nothing and pretend the problem does not exsist.

I do not have the skin wrinkle that has been shown on this forum.

We need to get a fix worked out. I will be talking with my machinist brother about making a threaded bracket that hooks on to the top of the channel. (just in the thinking stage no drilling required)) Lets work togather and get this resovled.

I would be interested in hearing what others are doing for a fix. I guess if I did not have cracks I would still want to reinforce before it does. I will be doing something with the right side that is not cracked. I cant help but think that justing hitting a hole taxing could do this.

My incident was 2 years ago. Could I have missed it on my last annual ?? Very possible.

Brad Stiefvater
Salem SD
 
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I have personally seen wrinkled skin above the right landing gear on an RV-12. To protect the privacy of the owner, I will not divulge the full N number; but it ends with CG. It is rumored that the pilot admitted to making a hard landing.
I operate off grass strips that are not always smooth. And not all of my landings are perfect. If someone comes up with an engineered reinforcement to prevent wrinkled skin, I am interested.
Joe Gores
 
Van's?

I operate off grass strips that are not always smooth. And not all of my landings are perfect. If someone comes up with an engineered reinforcement to prevent wrinkled skin, I am interested.
Joe Gores

This begs the question: Is the Mother Ship aware of this problem? After all, they have the engineering talent not to mention the responsibility to fix the problem. Why are people trying to "engineer" the fix on their own?

Maybe this has been said before, I haven't scanned the entire thread...

Just sayin'
 
Van's?

I operate off grass strips that are not always smooth. And not all of my landings are perfect. If someone comes up with an engineered reinforcement to prevent wrinkled skin, I am interested.
Joe Gores

This begs the question: Is the Mother Ship aware of this problem? After all, they have the engineering talent not to mention the responsibility to fix the problem. Why are people trying to "engineer" the fix on their own?

Maybe this has been said before, I haven't scanned the entire thread...

Just sayin'
 
I operate off grass strips that are not always smooth. And not all of my landings are perfect. If someone comes up with an engineered reinforcement to prevent wrinkled skin, I am interested.
Joe Gores

This begs the question: Is the Mother Ship aware of this problem? After all, they have the engineering talent not to mention the responsibility to fix the problem. Why are people trying to "engineer" the fix on their own?

Maybe this has been said before, I haven't scanned the entire thread...

Just sayin'
 
I operate off grass strips that are not always smooth. And not all of my landings are perfect. If someone comes up with an engineered reinforcement to prevent wrinkled skin, I am interested.
Joe Gores

This begs the question: Is the Mother Ship aware of this problem? After all, they have the engineering talent not to mention the responsibility to fix the problem. Why are people trying to "engineer" the fix on their own?

Maybe this has been said before, I haven't scanned the entire thread...

Just sayin'
 
I operate off grass strips that are not always smooth. And not all of my landings are perfect. If someone comes up with an engineered reinforcement to prevent wrinkled skin, I am interested.
Joe Gores

This begs the question: Is the Mother Ship aware of this problem? After all, they have the engineering talent not to mention the responsibility to fix the problem. Why are people trying to "engineer" the fix on their own?

Maybe this has been said before, I haven't scanned the entire thread...

Just sayin'
 
This may work as temporary fix until vans comes up with a fix , if they think there room for improvement on the design

bigwasher.jpg
 
I operate off grass strips that are not always smooth. And not all of my landings are perfect. If someone comes up with an engineered reinforcement to prevent wrinkled skin, I am interested.
Joe Gores

This begs the question: Is the Mother Ship aware of this problem? After all, they have the engineering talent not to mention the responsibility to fix the problem. Why are people trying to "engineer" the fix on their own?

Maybe this has been said before, I haven't scanned the entire thread...

Just sayin'
 
Looking at the photos, the edge of the hole on the channel cutout is quite sharp and ragged, and could probably benefit from some rounding. I'm not suggesting it would prevent the damage shown, but you probably don't want those tiny nicks in the edge. Smoothing out the small step between the flat area under the washer and the rounded face of the cutout is probably worth considering too. This will be a challenging area to reinforce.

Edit: Interestingly, the shape of the cutouts in posts #34 and #60 is quite different. The early one (#60) is a lot narrower.
 
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Why not start a poll? Ask all 12 drivers to check their units and advise results. No need to i.d. if that 's a problem (don't know why it would be tho as we are all in this for the benefit of all the owners). I would be happy to start it but not sure how to. I'll try tho.
By the way I checked mine today and found no issues with the skins, the legs, or the c channel. I have 141 hrs, have landed mostly on paved strips, and had a couple bounces. I suspect that tells us not much.
I will try to setup poll.
Dick Seiders
 
Sorry. I have no idea how to find out how to set up poll. Whoever knows please set it up.

I would suggest following:

1. Inspected and no issues detected

2. Cracks found in c channel only

3. wrinlkes found in skin at gear legs only

4. Both 3 and 4



Just a process to organize the numbers. Thanks.
Dick Seiders
 
Dick
Is it worth adding

5. Hours flown

Possibly not as don't want it to get too unweildy.


John
 
John, I kept it simple as it can expand quickly (like a tree diagram). Also the earlier issues seem to me to be more of a question of how many are there in fact that have been affected. This poll would answer that question as we can take the number of responses and when it's obvious we have what we are going to get we can extrapolate the percentage of each based on total flying. I think that would be a reasonable conclusion. Then again maybe all 200 would respond which would be very factual indeed. I can't believe that anyone flying a 12 would not be interested in this as the results would (could) be a predictor of expected future failures (cracks). However adding that one element you suggest may be helpful. Whoever creates the poll will decide.

Dick Seiders
 
I don't know why entirely, but some of the owners with the problem don't want to stand up and be counted, so there would be some problem with the numbers there from the timid owners..
 
Edit: Interestingly, the shape of the cutouts in posts #34 and #60 is quite different. The early one (#60) is a lot narrower.

I think that is just the angle the photos were taken, several of us compared our holes and it appears they are all the same, but look different from the angle photographed.
 
Don It might be interesting to know more about the events that took place to create this damage. From my experience these planes are not too fragile. Lots of conclusion anbd speculation. One would need to evaluate each case to find out a cause and effect. Mike

I, too, doubt that the aircraft is fragile...IF it is operated within the design parameters, that is, weight, CG limits, max. crosswind component, etc. Other RVs have experienced substantial damage, landing and taxiing, due to crosswind and taxi mishaps. Here are a couple of well documented examples (not RV12s):
This RV-8 had substantial damage from a "crow hop" while turning off the runway:
i-8VdGdmv-S.jpg

The pilot fessed up and completely documented the misshap. It required a new quick build fuselage to repair this damage. This is a plane that is built to heavier standards than the 12, and was damaged by what at first seemed like a minor incident.

And this aircraft had suffered a ground loop due to direct crosswind.
i-Cn3j7FZ-S.jpg

The pilot also fessed up and fully documented what happened. This aircraft was for sale at the time of the mishap a was sold "as is".

Here are links to full documentation:
http://www.romeolima.com/RV8/Flying.htm

http://www.mattsrv8.com/users/displ...V8&project=638&category=6931&log=128027&row=3

My point is that there probably NOT a design flaw in the RV-12 center section. The aircraft has to be operated within it's design parameters or it could be damaged, like any other. It requires good landing and crosswind technique or it could be damaged, like any other.

Tony
 
I have never seen one yet myself, so I cannot answer that. I would assume that other than the part covered up by that flat piece of steel above the mlg, it would be quite visible from underneath.

Brad or Don, is this visible from on top or underneath the plane?
 
More Wrinkles

I just got email notification of another "wrinkle skin" damage in central PA, that makes 8 of them. He had not checked for channel cracking yet, but desires to not be named or identified by plane ID.
As someone said, it does seem strange that only RV12s get the poor pilots, the good ones apparently are buying Skycatchers, Sonex, and Zeniths and not having this type problem due to their superior piloting skils:rolleyes:..
 
I have been out on vacation... so just now seeing some of the posts in this thread.

Instead of anyone attempting to be a personal clearing house for information, or starting an on line poll, may I suggest the the best way to start getting Van's involved would be to use the service difficulty notification process that was put in place specifically for this type of thing. It is documented in the back of the maintenance manual, that every owner of an RV-12 kit received in their documentation package.
It is there specifically for this type of issue, and will allow owners to let Van's know details of a problem without having to put it out on a public forum.

I should emphasize details.
It will be of little help for someone to submit a report of "I have cracks / XXX flight hours"
Provide as much info as possible... runway conditions predominantly used, any other damage other than channel cracks, etc.

BTW, so far this reporting system has been extremely under utilized. I encourage all RV-12 owners to use it, and if they happen to hear another owner mention a problem, encourage them to use also.
 
I think that is just the angle the photos were taken, several of us compared our holes and it appears they are all the same, but look different from the angle photographed.

Hmm, not sure about that Don. Mine is like #41 with a fairly wide flat area around the washer, unlike #60 which has virtually no extra room adjacent to the washer. Anyway, they both cracked so we're probably not adding much to the debate here, although a wider flat would allow the use of an oversized washer or packer to distribute the bolt force over a wider area.
 
I just got email notification of another "wrinkle skin" damage in central PA, that makes 8 of them. He had not checked for channel cracking yet, but desires to not be named or identified by plane ID.
As someone said, it does seem strange that only RV12s get the poor pilots, the good ones apparently are buying Skycatchers, Sonex, and Zeniths and not having this type problem due to their superior piloting skils:rolleyes:..

It is my opinion that you are beginning to cross the line with a statement like this Don, but I probably don't even need to say anything because I believe most of the readers of this forum realize how ridiculous of a statement this is.

I can't point you to an statistical data (but then again you didn't either), but I have heard through the industry grape vine that significant number of all of the Sky catchers delivered so far have been involved in some type of an accident.

It is one thing to say you are passing along info for the good of the RV-12 brotherhood, but it is another thing all together when you make public statements like this... just sayin
 
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As someone said, it does seem strange that only RV12s get the poor pilots, the good ones apparently are buying Skycatchers, Sonex, and Zeniths and not having this type problem due to their superior piloting skils:rolleyes:..

Perhaps a Dale Carnegie course is in order?
 
You might be right. I just was furnished this photo, that would indicate at first glance that the process has changed for cutting the hole. This is from a very recently provided kit. No idea why it may have been changed.
2ikvakg.jpg
[/IMG]
Hmm, not sure about that Don. Mine is like #41 with a fairly wide flat area around the washer, unlike #60 which has virtually no extra room adjacent to the washer. Anyway, they both cracked so we're probably not adding much to the debate here, although a wider flat would allow the use of an oversized washer or packer to distribute the bolt force over a wider area.
 
I appreciate your suggestion Scott, and I agree if such an avenue for helpful feedback to Van's exists it should be utilized. As an RV12 owner/flyer however I would like to know and feel all owners have a right to know how widespread the issue is. The poll would be helpful in that regard. It tells us the magnitude and breadth of the problem so we might better understand if we all need to be concerned, and/or looking for a fix from Vans or if it's just an isolated few cases due to a clearly identifiable cause in the construction process.
Dick Seiders
 
That was a "tongue in cheek" comment and I can believe that most would take it that way (notice the emoticon?). The comment was made by a person that called this problem to the attention of Vans, and was told there is no problem with the gear attachment, it can only be caused by poor piloting skills. This seems to be a problem with Vans, perhaps an easy process of notifying some department of Vans of such problems would help. It was my intention to bring this problem to the attention of everyone, so that they could report problems and be aware of the need to check the channel for cracks. That is only my opinion, and if you don't want to check it, then don't.
There seems to be two problems with your suggestion, first for some reason not fully understood by me, some of those with the problem are NOT wanting it to be made public, i e no reports will be made. The second problem with reporting, is that most don't actually KNOW what caused it or even when it happened. Not nice and clean for understanding the problem, but that seems to be the way it is.
It is my opinion that you are beginning to cross the line with a statement like this Don, but I probably don't even need to say anything because I believe most of the readers of this forum realize how ridicules of a statement this is.

I can't point you to an statistical data (but then again you didn't either), but I have heard through the industry grape vine that significant number of all of the Sky catchers delivered so far have been involved in some type of an accident.

It is one thing to say you are passing along info for the good of the RV-12 brotherhood, but it is another thing all together when you make public statements like this... just sayin
 
This seems to be a problem with Vans, perhaps an easy process of notifying some department of Vans of such problems would help.

I have previously, and just again today mentioned a process that is already in place. People simply need to use it. If the process is used, it is providing the information directly to the engineering department.



There seems to be two problems with your suggestion, first for some reason not fully understood by me, some of those with the problem are NOT wanting it to be made public, i e no reports will be made. The second problem with reporting, is that most don't actually KNOW what caused it or even when it happened. Not nice and clean for understanding the problem, but that seems to be the way it is.

I can't help with the first of your problems... but I don't see the second as being a problem.
The intent isn't to receive an analysis of what caused the damage and why, it is simply to acquire information to begin to analyze the problem. I don't see how that is any different from what you say you are doing.

As for someone in the office denying that their was a problem... It is likely that the person that called was the very first person to do so. It may come as a surprise, but no one at Van's jumps into action from one call with very little detailed info., and sounds an alarm that there is a major problem. If every individual call made by customers, who thought there was a design or part production issue were immediately researched, it would literally require hiring a full time employee for just that job. Van's is no different than any other company, there needs to be some indication that an issue is something more than a single isolated event.

As far as tongue in cheek... I think the readers of this forum have come to know you well enough (at least the personality you extend on-line), that they know exactly what you meant.........
 
This thread started 7/13/12 and just now someone is reporting it to Van's???
I'm glad at least Scott appears to monitor the forum. But he was on vacation so looks like Van's was in the dark.. maybe.

With due respect they should check in for these kind of problems that are festering... Would take an hour a week. They should not be the last to know.. maybe some expect them to be oracles?

A suggestion, if you experience this kind of what I see as a serious problem, at least email them with a headsup...If it's ignored, then its on them...
 
Information is a good thing

The reading of this form keeps us informed of all thinks going on with the RV12 ( Both good and Bad ) as pilot in command we are responsible to take all pertinent information into account.
Input from vans is a good thing, and input from people like don is also a good thing.
At the time of this post don has about 1600 posts , and In my view has kept me informed of things to consider while building my 12. some I agree with and some not so much.
This one I agree with Scott and Don that all items of concern should be sent to Vans , and also posted on this form to Mitigate Damage. One life lost Is way too many.
MY View
 
The reading of this form keeps us informed of all thinks going on with the RV12 ( Both good and Bad ) as pilot in command we are responsible to take all pertinent information into account.
Input from vans is a good thing, and input from people like don is also a good thing.
At the time of this post don has about 1600 posts , and In my view has kept me informed of things to consider while building my 12. some I agree with and some not so much.
This one I agree with Scott and Don that all items of concern should be sent to Vans , and also posted on this form to Mitigate Damage. One life lost Is way too many.
MY View

+1

Well said Joe.
 
I just got email notification of another "wrinkle skin" damage in central PA, that makes 8 of them. He had not checked for channel cracking yet, but desires to not be named or identified by plane ID.
As someone said, it does seem strange that only RV12s get the poor pilots, the good ones apparently are buying Skycatchers, Sonex, and Zeniths and not having this type problem due to their superior piloting skils:rolleyes:..

Don, I can't help but wonder how you became a clearing house for this and other information about the RV-12. How is it that you get emails from people about this problem and others? And who are these shadowy people out there that confide in you, but don't have the guts to identify themselves?

As to your closing statement - you are beginning to sound a lot like the fellow in Florida, who unfortunatley passed away some time ago, that was always carping about Van's Aircraft, but yet continued to build RV-12's. I can't help but wonder why you are building a Van's product, if the others you named are so superior.

As to this thread - It is so full of rumors and guesses as to be pretty much useless, it seems to me. If there is a real problem, other than pilots making bad landings, then factual and detailed information needs to go directly to Van's for their evaluation and action. I will inspect my airplane next time to the hangar, and if I find any cracks I will deal with Van's directly, and I urge all other responsible owners to do the same.
 
The problem with communicating with written words is that one can not see facial expressions or hear the tone of voice. It is easy to assume that someone is complaining when actually they are joking. I like Don's sense of humor. I think that one rule we should all abide by is that we should not post something that we would not actually say to someone face to face.
I want to thank Don for bringing this structural damage to our attention.
Joe Gores
 
Respect Given

Big John with all due Respect and I do respect your opinion.
I am one of those shadowy people out here that most of time don't have the guts or the permission to post the phone conversations or the emails that I get from EAB 12 Builders who don't want to get beat up by Builders who think we should build strictly to the plans. Vans builds Great Aircraft and because of the ELSA rules the 12 EAB is not accepted as well as the rest of the EAB fleet. More people would post if they would be respected for their opinion and just ignored if they don't agree.
This Forum is a great place to keep us informed and could be better if we don't criticized people for their opinion

My View
 
Long Response to Questions

Good questions John.
How I got in the center of this starts with Ron Russ noting his damage after hearing noises when landing he could not identify. He had grown quite hostile about the mud slinging when something like this is mentioned on VAF, does not do photos, and asked me to post his misfortune for others to ponder. At that time it seemed like a single incident he caused by a hard landing. I did that for him, and for what I considered a favor for other owners who might encounter the same fate. I never wished to become a "clearing house" for this or any other problem. For some reason I don't understand, I then became a "wailing wall" for those who had the same damage and did not wish to post it on VAF (probably for the same reasons that show up in this thread, you will get accused of all sorts of things just for bringing it up, and as you might have noticed, many people have no idea how to post photos on the forum). I never resort to name calling, but those you call "shadowy figures" will have to speak for themselves.
After at least two people tried to bring it to the attention of Vans, and were rebuffed with the old story that the plane is just fine since it met some alphabet standards, it is poor pilots that are causing the problem, and in each case were told "this is the first we heard of this" which was not entirely true, it caused someone to say to me what I quoted as their response. I never said it was MY opinion, I still think the RV12 is the finest LSA out there, bar none - and even if it turns out that the landing gear needs a little stiffener or something. Good grief fellows, did you not know it is an EXPERIMENTAL aircraft?
I never intended this thread to be some statistical refined definition of the problem with readily available solutions, but simply a FORUM where others with similar problems or suggested solutions can communicate. I just don't agree with many that feel that ANY criticism of the RV12 should be swept under the carpet and never ever mentioned publicly. The reporting system that Scott mentioned is perfectly proper for reporting these things to Vans, but it appears it is not widely used, or is not effective in informing other owners. Vans DOES study problems for a solution, we have the fuel tank mod and the nose wheel pant fix as examples. We should be thankful that these solutions are carefully studied and proven before we are informed of a fix. I respectfully disagree that such problems should be kept secret from the rest of the owners as you suggest you will do John, but I can however respect your decision to do it that way.
So, I don't feel I deserve a spanking for sharing information that I felt other owners should be aware of. From some of the responses, one would think I was selling a fix for the problem and promoting the problem. I am selling NOTHING, and if you don't like to hear about a problem, I suggest you not read the posts...


Don, I can't help but wonder how you became a clearing house for this and other information about the RV-12. How is it that you get emails from people about this problem and others? And who are these shadowy people out there that confide in you, but don't have the guts to identify themselves?

As to your closing statement - you are beginning to sound a lot like the fellow in Florida, who unfortunatley passed away some time ago, that was always carping about Van's Aircraft, but yet continued to build RV-12's. I can't help but wonder why you are building a Van's product, if the others you named are so superior.

As to this thread - It is so full of rumors and guesses as to be pretty much useless, it seems to me. If there is a real problem, other than pilots making bad landings, then factual and detailed information needs to go directly to Van's for their evaluation and action. I will inspect my airplane next time to the hangar, and if I find any cracks I will deal with Van's directly, and I urge all other responsible owners to do the same.
 
Well, lets hope that those who have experienced these problems will follow through on Scott's request to get the facts in to Vans via the reporting system. Hopefully they will also overcome their reluctance to advise the general RV-12 community via the forum when some issue that potentially affects aircraft safety occurs. It shouldn't be left to Don, in this case, to flag the issue second-hand, but I for one am glad he did. I'm also very pleased that Scott takes the time to keep a semi-official eye on what goes on here, and have no doubt that Vans will come up with an engineered fix if one is required.

Maybe this particular issue is a design problem, maybe it's due to pilot error, and maybe it's something else. Whatever the cause, the cracks, wrinkles and crushed brake lines seem real enough to get my attention. Consequently I'm happy to wade through the inevitable speculation, mull over the good and bad ideas, possibly contribute something if it might be useful, or otherwise sit back and be entertained by the public debate. That's what a forum is for, and as builders we're very fortunate to have this one. Thanks DR.
 
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As to your closing statement - you are beginning to sound a lot like the fellow in Florida, who unfortunately passed away some time ago, that was always carping about Van's Aircraft, but yet continued to build RV-12's. I can't help but wonder why you are building a Van's product, if the others you named are so superior.

Well said. I had the EXACT same thoughts. Yes, I want the the facts but DO NOT want supposition or exaggeration. I can do without the abrasiveness. Maybe Don will take a lesson. Most on this forum dismissed anything the fellow in Florida posted, rest his soul.
 
Come on now Marty, the rules say we are supposed to keep it civil and avoid personal attacks. "Maybe Don will take a lesson" certainly infers I am stupid and need to learn - not to post bad things that happen to our planes I guess. I can find no place I have offered "supposition or exaggeration" or even "abrasiveness". Read back only a couple of posts where I said " I believe the RV12 is the best LSA out there, bar none" yet you try to put me in that unhappy group that constantly carps about the RV12, as though I am just a chronic complainer.
Apparently you are unhappy that under some set of circumstances, YOUR plane might fail like those I posted for friends, and if you can convince the forum that I am dumb, then the problem must be false as well..
 
Five?...or six?

Regarding the photo in post 97 (most recently)... I'm not certain, but it appears there may be the beginning of yet another crack. Look at the lower left-most rivet, at the 11 o'clock position. Tiny, but it does look to me like it.
 
More wrinkles

Inpected our 12 as a result of this thread.
We also found a wrinkle just above and below our right wing and a minor dent in the brake line.
Cannot find any cracks in the beam.
We have about 55 hours flight time.
We hard no hard landings, but need to use the brakes quite often to prevent overshoot on short grass strips.
We will remove the wings and inpect for further damage tomorrow
We will report this to VAN's if they send us the ASME form which we never had.
We don't like it very much
 
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