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Transition into flight

Cadstat

Well Known Member
I've flown at least 50 different planes over the years including twins. What I'm noticing with my CS IO-320 6A is that it seems to pause or hesitate at that point of transition from runway to flight more than most A/C I've flown. I'm only showing 2600 RPM max and think maybe I need to turn up the govenor. The field is 4650 ft and flaps half way position, full fuel and no passenger. Any suggestions?
 
You may be noticing the ground effect that is lower to the ground than most airplanes because of it's shorter wings. I think I remember that ground effect height is half the distance of the aircraft's wing span. Or 11 feet or so in most RVs.

I typically lift off at 60 MPH then hold 5 feet AGL until 80 MPH.
 
Takeoff

I've flown at least 50 different planes over the years including twins. What I'm noticing with my CS IO-320 6A is that it seems to pause or hesitate at that point of transition from runway to flight more than most A/C I've flown. I'm only showing 2600 RPM max and think maybe I need to turn up the govenor. The field is 4650 ft and flaps half way position, full fuel and no passenger. Any suggestions?

I would start with the RPM issue, it should be higher. Also make sure that the tach is accurate. My big concern is the flap position. At half flaps, you are most likely adding more drag than lift. A little flight testing should be in order, seeing what the takeoff distance is in each configuration and how much time it takes from brake release to liftoff.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
I've only flown a dozen or so different planes, and only 4 in Colorado, but I'm curious why you are using flaps for any take-off at Greeley. The "short" runway is 5800'
 
I'm at a 4603' msl airport. For my takeoffs, I generally use no flaps. My 180HP Lyc does spin to the full 2700 rpms with the Hartzell prop. I start the roll with the stick full back, and then move it forward as speed picks up. I don't use the "let it fly off method". I hold the nosewheel slightly off the ground until at least 60 kias, or slightly above, as it takes no time at all to increase to 65 kias.............and then either gain some instant altitude before leveling off a bit, or holding it in ground effect longer. At that 60 kias rotation speed, the airspeed quickly increases with full throttle. There is no hesitation.

I might just start using some flap for takeoffs, just for the sake of it. It doesn't need them at all..........to get airborne though. More than not, I just use 1/2 flaps for landings. Some are power off, and some with power. But I better be close to the runway when the airspeed hit's 60 kias and diminishing. Otherwise, my plane will fall through the flare.

L.Adamson --- RV6A
 
I wouldn't raise the rpm until you check with max rpm for the prop. My Hartzell has a 2600 max rpm.
 
I would start with the RPM issue, it should be higher. Also make sure that the tach is accurate. My big concern is the flap position. At half flaps, you are most likely adding more drag than lift. A little flight testing should be in order, seeing what the takeoff distance is in each configuration and how much time it takes from brake release to liftoff.

There have been quite a number of video's and comments about using some flaps on RV's over the years. It doesn't seem to hurt, and some have interesting results.........including full flap short takeoffs in an 8. I know that mine (6A) litterly popped off the runway one day, when I let a friend do the takeoff............and I was going to raise the 1/2 flap first.

L.Adamson ---- RV6A
 
Why flaps

The CFI that transitioned me into the RV suggested using about half flaps. My C-210 operated very well with 20 degrees for take off and landing. Also, when taking off on the East-West runway you have to cross over the ILS approach to the North South with most of the IFR practice so the higher the better. And if I have 250 ft at the end of the take off runway and an engine out happens, I can drop the nose, turn 90 degrees and be set up to land on a 10,000 foot runway.
 
1/2 flaps?

there is a considerable drag increase between 1/2 flaps and 10 deg flaps. You might see if raising flaps to 10 deg will change what you are seeing on take off.
 
I... My big concern is the flap position. At half flaps, you are most likely adding more drag than lift. A little flight testing should be in order, seeing what the takeoff distance is in each configuration and how much time it takes from brake release to liftoff. ...

I totally agree with John. At my field elevation of 4000' and 70-75 degF (6000' DA) is about where the use flaps on my 170 start to increase the distance req'd to clear a 50' obstacle.
 
Takeoff Flaps

There have been quite a number of video's and comments about using some flaps on RV's over the years. It doesn't seem to hurt, and some have interesting results.........including full flap short takeoffs in an 8. I know that mine (6A) litterly popped off the runway one day, when I let a friend do the takeoff............and I was going to raise the 1/2 flap first.

L.Adamson ---- RV6A

The trade out on using flaps for takeoff is distance on the runway vs climb. With flaps, the airplane will leave the ground at a lower speed due to the added lift at low speed, but you will give up some initial climb performance due to the increased drag.

John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
Fixed pitch cruise prop here. I take off at 2200 RPM's, the RV is a terrible "just let it fly off" plane. I have never felt ground effect in my plane. 10 degrees flaps, hold it down get a 10 mph cushion and pull it off like you mean it. Stop climbing, accelerate for a count of five raise your flaps as you continue to accelerate to your target speed. I have as many horrible take offs as I do horrible landings. Can't say that about any other plane I've flown.
 
Rv-Training

John, You might consider a check out from a good quailfied RV Instructor many of your questions would be answered. I find the RV tri gear airplanes to be easy to take off smoothly.

Michael Seager
Vans RV Instructor
 
Fixed pitch cruise prop here. I take off at 2200 RPM's, the RV is a terrible "just let it fly off" plane. I have never felt ground effect in my plane. 10 degrees flaps, hold it down get a 10 mph cushion and pull it off like you mean it. Stop climbing, accelerate for a count of five raise your flaps as you continue to accelerate to your target speed. I have as many horrible take offs as I do horrible landings. Can't say that about any other plane I've flown.

Wow...that sounds overly complicated. I have a fixed cruise prop (RV-6, 2270 rpm at rotation) and the only time a few degrees of flaps are used is when departing downwind out of my friend's short grass strip. Otherwise, leave flaps up, smoothly go to full throttle, raise the tail, wait for the AOA indicator to climb out of the red, rotate and climb strongly at 2350 rpm as the speed eases up to 115 kts. No need to resort to anything other than the simplest procedures for take-off in an RV.
 
My 6A flies off when ready just fine. I never understood if the "hesitation" meant the engine or some aerodynamic attribute.

Even at 8000' density altitude and a FP prop, I take off around 1500 feet (6000 foot runway).

I have taken off from Greeley multiple times. No issues.
 
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I have no problems. My field is at 2000ft and what I do is make a nice gradual increase on the throttle, than I move the stick back and raise the nose off, than stay on the mains until the aircraft lifts off on its own. I use no flaps, rpms are right at 2600.
 
Bad take offs

Fixed pitch cruise prop here. I take off at 2200 RPM's, the RV is a terrible "just let it fly off" plane. I have never felt ground effect in my plane. 10 degrees flaps, hold it down get a 10 mph cushion and pull it off like you mean it. Stop climbing, accelerate for a count of five raise your flaps as you continue to accelerate to your target speed. I have as many horrible take offs as I do horrible landings. Can't say that about any other plane I've flown.

I found your reply very helpful. Most of the planes I flew 'tell' you when they are ready to fly. I hold back pressure and I let them fly off the runway. In the RV, I have been doing as you say. When I know I'm at 60 with a cushion, I have to nudge it off with a little additional imput which is the part that feels funny to me. You don't horse some planes to flight or they turn around and bite you.

Thanks to all that have replied. So much good advice. I'll try 10 degrees on the flap and see how that goes.
 
Sam

Wow...that sounds overly complicated. I have a fixed cruise prop (RV-6, 2270 rpm at rotation) and the only time a few degrees of flaps are used is when departing downwind out of my friend's short grass strip. Otherwise, leave flaps up, smoothly go to full throttle, raise the tail, wait for the AOA indicator to climb out of the red, rotate and climb strongly at 2350 rpm as the speed eases up to 115 kts. No need to resort to anything other than the simplest procedures for take-off in an RV.

Thanks for the advice. I have been trying to leaving out the definite rotate but have learn, I need it. The responses seem to bare this out. The C-210didn't require a rotate. You set the pressure on the yoke and when it was ready, you were off and on your way, so smoothly you didn't feel it leave the ground.
From the many responses, I'm begining to think too much flap too. I've been giving it the definite 'rotate' but felt a little uncomfortable doing this because it seems an extra step that I didn't need in some other aircraft. You can 'pop' them all off but then here comes that old sinking feeling. Thanks again!
 
What I'm noticing with my CS IO-320 6A is that it seems to pause or hesitate at that point of transition from runway to flight more than most A/C I've flown. I'm only showing 2600 RPM max and think maybe I need to turn up the governer. The field is 4650 ft and flaps half way position, full fuel and no passenger. Any suggestions?

First off, I have never flown a 6a---so this is strictly based on opinion, and not empirical data.

You do not mention anything about holding the nose wheel off-----and that is something that should probably be dealt with.

I took 8 hours transition training with Mike Seager, and the very first thing he did was hand me a sheet of paper describing how to take off, and land a nose wheel equipped RV. This was written by Van himself. It tells how to keep the nose up on takeoff, and landing, and why this must be done.

As Mike and I started actually flying the 10, nose wheel ground contact was a major part of the work. I was taught to hold back stick from the start of the roll, and get the nose up just a bit as soon as the elevator had the authority to do so. Then hold that attitude and let the plane fly itself off.

Works just fine for me, in a 10. As far as I know this is how any "A" model should be flown.

Now, as to half flaps on take off------Mike and I did not discuss such things, the 10 uses zero flaps for takeoff.

But-----on landing, I notice the force needed to KEEP the nose wheel off during rollout is greatly reduced if I raise the flaps soon as I can after touching down. Thus, I expect that using half flaps on takeoff is causing you to have a bit of nose down force you really dont want or need, and that may be causing the sensation you are experiencing.

Hope this helps, good luck.
 
.....consider a check out from a good quailfied RV Instructor many of your questions would be answered. ......
Michael Seager
Vans RV Instructor

I'll second the motion. Even though I've never landed a tri-gear RV. Mike answered all my TW questions. Thanks for your patience.
 
Listen to both Mikes!

Certainly, good instruction is what I would go for first, second and at every opportunity. I did transition training with Reuven Silberman but would like to set up some time with Mike Seager as well, just to "compare and contrast".

What Mike Starkey points out certainly resonates with my limited experience (100hrs RV7A). Flaps really feel like they contribute to nose down pitch, which would have to be overcome with more aft stick force on rotation. I noticed during my phase 1 that with a forward CG it was much easier to keep the nose wheel off on both take-off and landing with no flaps. I preferred the feel of either no flaps, or further aft CG.

Just my very limited experience.

Jeremy Constant
7A
Switching to PMags after LASAR mag shaft sheared!
 
Exactly Jeremy. Flaps bring the nose down which aids visibility during landing. But I never use flaps during take-off but do get the nose up (6A) as early in the take-off roll as possible.
 
W & B

One other thing...in re-reading your post, I couldn't tell if you were the builder or how old the aircraft is. Either way, verifying W&B would probably give some more useful data. Full fuel, single pilot (no idea how much you weigh) and no baggage will equal pretty forward CG in that configuration. Depending on the weight of the prop you're probably close to the most forward CG. Then add ANY amount of flaps on take-off and you're absolutely going to have to exert considerably more aft stick force to get it to rotate than without flaps.

I am an inexperienced pilot and certainly not an instructor. That said, I've done this experiment on my airplane and it was instructional to me:

I would do 2 (or more!) stop and goes. First, I would do a take-off, no flaps with the stick starting full aft at throttle up and as soon as the nose starts to rise, gently ease off the back pressure until you are holding the top of the cowl on the far end of the runway. Keep the cowling on the far end of the runway until your mains are off.

Come around, land, taxi back do the same again with however much flaps you want to experiment with.

What I found with my plane is that with the stick full aft at throttle up, you REALLY FEEL when the elevator comes alive. With any flaps on take-off and forward CG, when it comes alive there is a big and quick build up of force required to keep it aft until the nose starts to rise. With no flaps, it is much less pulling force to keep it aft.

I have found on my airplane that completely neutral elevator trim yields a climb airspeed of about 115kts indicated at climb-out. This gives me good cooling and forward visibility. Check your take-off trim and see what effects it has as well. Sounds much more complicated in writing than just doing the experiments. A good intructor familiar with RVs is an even better resource for "cool tips and tricks"!

All in the spirit of "experimentation and testing"

Jeremy
 
Would this be the John Artz that used to live in Angola, Indiana?

I've flown at least 50 different planes over the years including twins. What I'm noticing with my CS IO-320 6A is that it seems to pause or hesitate at that point of transition from runway to flight more than most A/C I've flown. I'm only showing 2600 RPM max and think maybe I need to turn up the govenor. The field is 4650 ft and flaps half way position, full fuel and no passenger. Any suggestions?


Just wondering if I know you from a long long time ago

Smilin' Jack Hunt
 
I always use flaps for take off and landings. That's why they were installed on the airplane. 1/2 for takeoff and full for landings unless there are gusty cross winds. The XP IO-360 turns the MT prop 2700 RPM and the 8-A acceleration is very rapid to 60 kts where I rotate for lift off. Acceleration briskly continues to VX for initial climb where I clean up the flaps as altitude and speed allows for an engine out and then to VY for cruise.
The transition from runway to in flight is positive and instantaneous. Prescott AZ is at 5,000 and even on a hot day performance is excellent. Sea level takeoffs are even more impressive. There is no hesitation such as in a Cessna or Piper. I am amazed that the RV's with 180 horses perform so well. Acceleration and climb rate is exceptional, sometimes I feel like I am just along for the ride.... and what a ride!
J Wright
 
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