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RV-3: Aileron Trim

Ironflight

VAF Moderator / Line Boy
Mentor
One of the few things I would like to have work better on my RV-8 is the aileron trim. It?s the standard spring bias system common in RV?s today ? whether manual or electric, the net result is that it applies a spring force to the stick to pull it left or right. This is pretty much akin to putting a thumb on a control yoke to counter a heavy wing.

I was pleasantly surprised to find that Louise?s RV-6 has three-axis trim ? and it is done with trim tabs on the control surfaces! You have to remember that her plane was kit #4, built when there was still a lot of development work being on the model, and different things were being tried. The builder installed small trailing edge trim tabs on the left aileron and the rudder, with servos embedded in the surfaces themselves and a pushrod to what is not much more than a piece of wide piano hinge riveted to the trailing edge of the surface. They are amazingly effective, providing crisp and quick trim to the aircraft. While probably adding a touch of drag when deflected, it is not hard to put them in trail if you want, and flying the plane out of trim is draggy anyway.

The RV-6 Aileron Trim - I heard that it was an STC'd kit for a Mooney, but that could be rumor.
IMG_0175.JPG


Since we are building the RV-3 as a Technically Advanced airplane, and because the stick grip has a coolie hat that just begs to drive aileron trim, I decided to copy the RV-6 trim system. Van?s actually has early drawings for the system, but I discovered that they were going to be hard to adapt to the smaller ailerons of the -3, and that our RV-6 wasn?t built to them anyways. This was going to be a ?design as you go? effort ? but that is half the fun of homebuilding.

The first problem I dealt with was sticker shock on the price of a servo. The Ray Allen servos that are used pretty much exclusively in the homebuilding world are awfully precious I guess ? and the ?compact? version is even more costly. Sure, I wanted aileron trim?.but for $290 per servo?! I talked about this with other builders on and off, and one day, I received a note from one of them suggesting that I take a look at the web site www.firgelli.com . They appeared to have a line (three different basic sizes, with different gear ratios for each) of very compact linear actuators intended for use in RC and robotics applications. I was intrigued, and collaborated with a few engineers in the RV world to see if we could make the force and strokes work for moving small surface trim tabs. Surprisingly, the tiniest actuator appeared to have just what we would need, so I ordered a pair for our project ? at $65 each, they were a real bargain ? compared to the alternatives! (To avoid nervousness on the part of the vendor, I try to not tell them it's for an airplane!)

The Firgelli PQ12 - if you order one, let's not tell them its for an airplane, OK?
IMG_0179.JPG


The actuators arrived in a little over a week, and I didn?t waste much time hooking them up to a 9 volt battery to try them out. Encouraged by what I saw, I laid one on the full-sized side view of the aileron, and there was no doubt they would fit. Using some of my memories and pictures of how the trim servo was mounted in my RV-8 elevator, and having access to RV-6 and -8 drawings (plus the two airplanes), I began making bits and pieces to mount the servo. I opted for a completely self-contained ?plate? design ? the servo would be mounted to a plate through which the pushrod would pass to get back to the trailing edge of the surface. This would the cover a large access hole cut in the aileron, and be very easy to remove and replace for maintenance and modification. The trim tab would simply be a piece of piano hinge pop-riveted to the trailing edge itself. Not having a piece of hinge with 1.5? flanges handy, I built a tab up using skinny hinge and aluminum scrap. The side view drawing of the aileron was invaluable for determining the shape and height of the control horn, which I fabricated and riveted in place.

This picture shows the simple mounting brackets and pushrod yoke.
IMG_0181.JPG


I think it's going to fit!
IMG_0184.JPG


Probably the toughest part of the job was cutting a large hole in our QB aileron ? if I messed it up, I was going to have to buy parts and build another one. But sort of like cutting a hole in your leading edge for Duckworks lights, it sounds worse than it is. Using the removable plate concept made it quite simple, and the air nibbler made quick work of the task. The plate stiffens the area very nicely, and fabricating a frame/backing plate made drilling the holes very simple (I used it as a template).

It was actually a simple retrofit to a finished aileron.
IMG_0193.JPG


The small size of the actuator meant that I had to make a few adjustments to ?normal? attaching hardware. I had to build a special attaching yoke for the threaded pushrod that we use to link it to the tab for instance. Metric hardware is included with the actuator and the brackets had to fit that ? but overall, there was nothing that couldn?t be solved with a little thinking. The actuators have built-in position feedback, and while I am going to bring that out and in to the aircraft, I won?t really know how it works until I get more of the avionics wired up. As with the Ray Allen servos, the speed of the actuators can be reduced by lowering the voltage, and they are somewhat quick at 12 volts ? so a speed reduction circuit may be desirable. My next job will be to use what I have learned to build a similar tab for the rudder ? I see no difficulties with this, although dimensions will be slightly different.

A few rivets and nutplates, and it will be finished!
IMG_0197.JPG


Can these actuators be used for pitch trim? It sure would be nice to use less expensive pieces, but I consider pitch trim to be a pretty important flight control, so we?ll have to be sure that the rates and travel are adequate. I am happy with the quality of the Firgellis, and that is a good first step. I doubt that these little units will have enough ?oomph? to handle the larger elevator tab, but the company makes more powerful units in a bit larger size. We?re working on the calculations now ? time will tell.

Creating the aileron trim was a lot of fun, and it was nice to have a model from the early -6 to work from. I built the new parts without doing any drawings ? another fun way to work in the shop, just real-time prototyping. Cutting and fitting, letting the material and space available be my guide ? it?s a different way to design (for an engineer) ? more like art than science. But when it works, it is very rewarding ? the essence of homebuilding in a prefab kit world.
Paul
 
Nice work Paul.

Curious - what is the typical deflection needed on the -6 if you are balanced except for single pilot? I would have to guess it is a very small deflection. Also, if trimmed at cruise, does it more or less stay trimmed as you slow to pattern speeds? That is the main hassle with the spring based trim.

I would also guess that the force needed to deflect trim tabs is surprisingly small.
 
Nice work Paul.

Curious - what is the typical deflection needed on the -6 if you are balanced except for single pilot? I would have to guess it is a very small deflection. Also, if trimmed at cruise, does it more or less stay trimmed as you slow to pattern speeds? That is the main hassle with the spring based trim.

I would also guess that the force needed to deflect trim tabs is surprisingly small.

As you probably guessed Alex, the deflection is pretty small, and the -6 stays trimmed over the speed range with the tab - unlike the spring bias systems. The tab also eliminates the "springy" feel to the stick in roll (not a huge deal, but it's there).

The force to deflect the small trim tabs like this is extremely small - on the order of a pound. I have "Top People";) working on the moments for the elevator tabs, which have considerably more area.

Paul
 
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"teachable moment"

Ahhh...

I had noticed that there was considerable lateral trim change with speed, but was trying to decide if this was something to chase down as a rigging issue or just live with it.

Could you delve a bit more into what's happening with a spring bias trim system that does this and why a servo system doesn't?

Jeremy Constant
 
Flight load forces are speed related, the spring system is subject to changing due to load forces.

A servo system is not subject to changing due to force loads.
 
Which Firgelli Servo

Paul -

Can you give me the specific model designation for the Firgelli servo you used?

Did you go with the limit switch version or the position sensing?

Thanks.
 
aileron trim

HI Paul, I did indeed use a mooney trim system on the RV-6 aileron.I made my own rudder trim and Vans finally came out with the elevator trim. I put three axis eletric trim on the RV-6 as I had flown an RV-4 that was always out of trim. Made for interesting flying trying to read the map and hand fly. Still I think it makes a really nice flying plane to have real trim on all three control surfaces with a trailing trim tab system. You system looks nice. Mike
 
Mikey Aileron Tab

Paul,
In the first photo of the RV-6 (Mikey) aileron tab, how is the horn attached to the tab? I don't see a rivet and I'm sure it's not glued on. :eek: Just wondering how it was done.
 
Paul -

Can you give me the specific model designation for the Firgelli servo you used?

Did you go with the limit switch version or the position sensing?

Thanks.

It's the PQ-12 with position sensing, not the limit switch version.

HI Paul, I did indeed use a mooney trim system on the RV-6 aileron.I made my own rudder trim and Vans finally came out with the elevator trim. I put three axis eletric trim on the RV-6 as I had flown an RV-4 that was always out of trim. Made for interesting flying trying to read the map and hand fly. Still I think it makes a really nice flying plane to have real trim on all three control surfaces with a trailing trim tab system. You system looks nice. Mike

Thanks Mike - I was pretty sure that was what you told us, and since you were a Monoey guy, it made sense, but I didn't want to trust my memory. I got a xeroxed (many times) drawing from Van's for an aileron trim, and it looked different from Mikey's, so I figured yours was an earlier design.

Paul,
In the first photo of the RV-6 (Mikey) aileron tab, how is the horn attached to the tab? I don't see a rivet and I'm sure it's not glued on. :eek: Just wondering how it was done.

There's a rivet there - it's just hard to see! I had to look several times myself to asure myself that was how it's built. It's been there 20+ years, so I guess it'll stay attached....;)
 
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A suggestion

Paul,

It is hard to see from your photos if you secured the actuator only with the one screw for the pivot. If you did I might suggest adding some feature in your bracket to prevent the actuator from rotating about the attach screw.

The "system" might buckle if the actuator is allowed to pivot.

Don't have a better way to explain it. I am engineer and picture/sketches are worth 1000 words.

If you need me to sketch something up I will.
 
Actually Paul, the brackets holding the actuator are an early prototype - th elater ones extend a little bit farther "aft" in the aileron. if you look at the close-up of the actuator, you can see a groove in the end, underneath where the arm come out. I ran a screw cross-wise to pick this groove up to prevent exactly what you're talking about. I wanted it to move slightly for alignment, but not go very far.

Paul
 
Hey Paul...

What gear ratio did you choose?? Been looking for a good way to retro my RV4, best deal I've seen! I think you are really on to something here.
Thanks!!
 
What gear ratio did you choose?? Been looking for a good way to retro my RV4, best deal I've seen! I think you are really on to something here.
Thanks!!

I went with the slowest one (100:1 gear ratio) for the Aileron and rudder systems - that's still pretty quick considering the total travel is small, and it gives you the maximum force.
 
TAA...

I just had to chime in Paul... When I was a grad student doing research on Technically Advanced Aircraft (TAA), never in my wildest dreams did I think I'd ever see an RV-3 referred to as a TAA!!! ;)
 
Creating the aileron trim was a lot of fun, and it was nice to have a model from the early -6 to work from. I built the new parts without doing any drawings – another fun way to work in the shop, just real-time prototyping. Cutting and fitting, letting the material and space available be my guide – it’s a different way to design (for an engineer) – more like art than science. But when it works, it is very rewarding – the essence of homebuilding in a prefab kit world.
Paul

Did you re-balance the aileron assembly after you were finished? If so , how muck weight was required? Regards, Allan
 
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How many aileron tabs?

Paul I have question, I see that the std RV spring trim is connected to to both ailerons, and by your description there is only one trim tab on the the left wing of the -6? So to confirm, you're only adding trim to one side of the -3 and not both right? I currently have manual ground adjustable tabs riveted to both TE of my ailerons and have been thinking of doing something very much similar to have better trimming during flight and am trying to determine if just one side will do the trick.
 
Paul I have question, I see that the std RV spring trim is connected to to both ailerons, and by your description there is only one trim tab on the the left wing of the -6? So to confirm, you're only adding trim to one side of the -3 and not both right? I currently have manual ground adjustable tabs riveted to both TE of my ailerons and have been thinking of doing something very much similar to have better trimming during flight and am trying to determine if just one side will do the trick.

One side is just fine - the ailerons are a rigid system - one can't move one one way without the other moving the other. So if you have a trim tab on one side, it will move the system together. If you have tabs on both sides, you are likely going to just add additional drag - like speed brakes - if you get them both out of trail...

As for balance, the trim system is quite light compared to the water pipe in the leading edge of the ailerons - they are well overbalanced as designed.

And as for the "TAA" -3...well, we have to differentiate it in some way from the hordes of -3's now under construction!;) Our real goal is to prove that a TAA airplane, using modern experiemntal equipment, can actually be LIGHTER than a traditional -3. Of course, it helps if the pilot loses about 20 pounds....(I'm almost there!)

Paul
 
Yep... the glass panel should be lighter. Don't know about all that other Space Shuttle stuff though... :cool: I want glass too, but more of a minimialist panel.

So is movable aileron trim required because of the very wide speed range of the -3? (as opposed to a fixed tab)
 
So is movable aileron trim required because of the very wide speed range of the -3? (as opposed to a fixed tab)

Well, I would never say that it is REQUIRED at all, but it is very nice to have due to the fact that you've got wing tanks, and therefore will be creating heavy and light wings throughout the flight. A fixed tab won't compensate for this of course.

Paul
 
Yeah, I suppose a slight fuel imbalance will make a big difference in an RV. I keep forgetting this thing will be much more roll-responsive than anything else I've flown.

I might have to print this thread out to supplement my build instructions. ;)
 
Firgelli Servo Pirep?

Reviving this old thread to see if anyone who has put some RV flying hours on a Firgelli will give us a pirep? I don't think RC experience counts :)
 
Let's see, the RV-3 had 65 hours on the clock when I left it yesterday (Louise flew it more after I left town), and the aileron trim with the Firgelli has been workign fine. It is quicker than it needs to be - I might drop the voltage to slow it down - but we've had no issues so far.

Paul
 
PIREP on Firgelli PQ12 after 4 more years

Reviving this old thread to see if anyone who has put some RV flying hours on a Firgelli will give us a pirep? I don't think RC experience counts :)

Re-reviving this thread four years down the road, as I'm considering using a Firgelli PQ12 for rudder trim. Can we trouble you for another pirep?

Thanks,

-jon
 
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520 hours on the RV-3 now. Had to replace the Firgelli once - I think it was vibration induced. If the replacement fails I'll look for another solution.
 
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