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RV take off on taxiway @ OSH?

turbo

Well Known Member
saw this post on another forum. any info on this post? sounds crazy!!!!!!

Did you see the crazy RV take off from taxiway P ?

Friday.. afternoon, maybe. Some RV 6A or 7A didn't like his "taxi to 36" instructions and took off (downwind, against traffic) from taxiway P. Sheesh. I hope someone gets him to recognize what a bad idea that was. You can't see over the approaching aircraft taxiing toward you from the north end of 18/36.
 
Surely not. It is hard to imagine that happening with the number of feds swarming around that place. If so, he surely had enforcement action underway before his wheels touched down on the other end.

edit: Wow! Thanks for the confirmation Mike.
 
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RV-8

This did indeed happen. It was an RV-8 and flew right over the top of me at low altitude. Was from the 18 taxiway when runway 36 was in use. This guy must be a nut case. It appeared to be a polished airplane with blue trim. Hope this guy never comes back to Osh as he will hurt someone with this kind of attitude. Mike

Turbo what was the other forum?
 
roger that.......

osh 360 forum. we need some more info on that guy. insane.
 
Witness

osh 360 forum. we need some more info on that guy. insane.

Post #3 adds a lot of credibility to the story.

I hope that there is a thorough follow up on this incident. If found to be true, the Friendly Aviation Agency should turn the joker into a pedestrian.


John Clark ATP, CFI
FAA FAAST Team Member
EAA Flight Advisor
RV8 N18U "Sunshine"
KSBA
 
This really did happen. I didn't witness it, but I talked immediately afterwords to several of the other parking volunteers who did. The pilot was not paying any attention to the marshallers. One minor point- the takeoff was not from taxiway Papa, but from the paved drainage ditch that runs between the runway and papa. This is even worse, as the ditch is used for northbound taxiing traffic, meaning a) he took off against the taxiing traffic and b) he blew past at least two flagman who were trying to steer him in the proper direction.

Sadly, this is not as uncommon as you might think. It happens at least once a convention (even more sporting is when someone tries to LAND on the taxiway- the orange vests really need to keep their heads on a swivel!) The FAA has always taken a very hands-off approach to this, ie. if you don't cause an accident, no harm no foul. I believe this is wrong, and all of aviation would benefit from folks like this being weeded out. JMHO.
 
It can be a confusing place

I haven't been there in a couple of years but the taxiway east of the normal 36 was redesignated 36R during the event and this kind of known temporary change creates a breeding ground for mistakes under pressure. It definitely is not a normal environment for a dreamy, scared and whatever pilot. I can understand the FAA view. Fly defensively.

Bob Axsom
 
...I hope that there is a thorough follow up on this incident. If found to be true, the Friendly Aviation Agency should turn the joker into a pedestrian.

I think it is known to be true... It happened. The investigation should focus on the why...

I think there is a big difference between wilful disregard and genuine confusion. It's a bad situation, but I'd like to know the whole story before I find him "guilty" of anything.

Any way you look at it, this is much better than reading about a TBM cutting a RV-6 in half or two P-51's colliding on landing.
 
Safer?

Any way you look at it, this is much better than reading about a TBM cutting a RV-6 in half or two P-51's colliding on landing.

Agreed... Seems like the event might be getting safer overall. Maybe people are finally reading the NOTAM before they get within 50 miles? :eek:

Did anybody besides Jack Roush wreck on field this year? I thought I saw cranes lifting an airplane out of the way on Friday near the north end of 36 but it looked like a minor incident. I got a good laugh at the controller who recorded the ATIS on the Friday afternoon before the show started-- he said NOT to exit left onto the turf south of Runway 27 "because several airplanes have tried it, and it does not work." :cool:
 
There is confusion...

I think it is known to be true... It happened. The investigation should focus on the why...

I think there is a big difference between wilful disregard and genuine confusion. It's a bad situation, but I'd like to know the whole story before I find him "guilty" of anything.

Any way you look at it, this is much better than reading about a TBM cutting a RV-6 in half or two P-51's colliding on landing.

...but it seems a take-off in the opposite direction from traffic at a busy place like Oshkosh is going beyond confusion...:(
 
Maybe people are finally reading the NOTAM before they get within 50 miles? :eek:
It still looked like perhaps 5 to 10% of the arriving pilots had not fully read and understood the NOTAM. I didn't notice any decrease in the number of pilots calling in on the Fisk Approach frequency and reporting their position, etc, rather than keeping radio silence as described in the NOTAM. Nor did I note any decrease in the number of pilots responding to instructions on the radio. I witnessed a Cessna come very close to landing on top of another aircraft as I was on final. Thankfully the tower controller saw what was happening and called for him to go-around, and the Cessna pilot did that just in time.
 
I doubt that it was on purpose

...but it seems a take-off in the opposite direction from traffic at a busy place like Oshkosh is going beyond confusion...:(

One evening when flying home from work I was cleared to land on 1R at Santa Ana (Orange County/John Wayne) and a 737 was cleared to taxi north on alpha to 1L. As I turned very short final into Santa Ana wind conditions (~45 mph) the 737 taxied out on 19L for his trip to 1L. We were cockpit to cockpit and a few hundred feet apart when I announced I was going around. Stuff happens and it is not safe to assume that it will not.

Bob Axsom
 
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I didn't notice any decrease in the number of pilots calling in on the Fisk Approach frequency and reporting their position, etc, rather than keeping radio silence as described in the NOTAM.
For what it's worth, Oshkosh doesn't have the monopoly on that. At Arlington (WA), where the arrival procedures are getting more and more involved every year due to the continuing increase in attendance, they have the same wording in the Notam. Say nothing, rock wings (or whatever they ask for) to acknowledge. I think I was the only plane during my arrival this year to successfully not say a word until I needed to talk to someone on the ground. I did hit the PTT once before I caught myself, but managed to let go and rock instead.

The problem is that staying silent is completely alien to most pilots... Acknowledging a call audibly is programmed into us from our first flights. At one of my home airports, the Tower controller regularly tells traffic to exit the runway, *monitor* ground, taxi at pilot's discretion, no need to call in. All pilots seem to acknowledge this, but more than half the time, the plane will still exit the runway, stop, and then call ground for taxi clearance. We're programmed to do it.
 
Bob - not similar...

One evening when flying home from work I was cleared to land on 1R at Santa Ana (Orange County/John Wayne) and a 737 was cleared to taxi north on alpha to 1L. As I turned very short final into Santa Ana wind conditions (~45 mph) the 737 taxied out on 19L for his trip to 1L. We were cockpit to cockpit and a few hundred feet apart when I announced I was going around. Stuff happens and it is not safe to assume that it will not.

Bob Axsom

You are describing a ground movement error - something the FAA has been hammering on (quite rightly) for the last few years.

I was talking about a wrong way take-off at an airport that is conducting a continuous stream of take-offs.

There is confusion and stupidity - I rate this in the second category...:rolleyes:

And yes... we should all be looking for the unexpected, but we should also be not attempting to create it...
 
I was talking about a wrong way take-off at an airport that is conducting a continuous stream of take-offs.

There is confusion and stupidity - I rate this in the second category...:rolleyes:

I agree, but the very nature of the incident is what causes me pause. Meaning, it was apparently SO blatant... There MUST be a compelling reason. (and I'd like to hear it)

On the other hand, if it was pure stupidity or disregard for procedures, I'm sure that will come out very quickly.
 
Finding the cause is important

I feel certain that the pilot was confused but the system allowed it to happen - why? What can be done better?

Bob Axsom
 
I feel certain that the pilot was confused but the system allowed it to happen - why? What can be done better?

Bob Axsom

Could have been something as simple as hearing "...RV keep it rolling, you are cleared for take off....". I doubt the guy deliberately took off against landing traffic. More likely than not, it was an incredible lack of situational awareness. The place can be an overwhelming experience if one isn't hanging loose and tuned in. The taxi way on the east side is used for flight operations, confusion probably reigned.

The no-radio reply policy is not bullet proof. If there is a question about what the controller said or did not say, it needs to be clarified. I've rolled out on final with no clearance to land which was quickly clarified with a "#1 RV cleared to land?". Perhaps there should have been a "....do you really want me to take off on this taxi way?"

Common sense has to prevail.
 
I feel certain that the pilot was confused but the system allowed it to happen - why? What can be done better?
I have to disagree with you Bob. Confused? What evidence can you offer in support of this? The fact that he blew right past at least two of the flagman who were trying to steer him in the correct direction is evidence that this was a deliberate act and not a moment of confusion.

Or, put another way- there is "confusion" and there is "cranial-rectal inversion" and the two terms are not interchangeable. We all get confused at times. This goes beyond confusion. There are some acts that, while they may be explainable, are not excusable. Remember the two pilots who managed to fly within a couple miles of the White House a few years back?

Problems with the system? The other 9,999 pilots managed not to screw this up. As soon as you design a fool-proof system, they will build a better fool.
 
I have to disagree with you Bob. Confused? What evidence can you offer in support of this? The fact that he blew right past at least two of the flagman who were trying to steer him in the correct direction is evidence that this was a deliberate act and not a moment of confusion.

Or, put another way- there is "confusion" and there is "cranial-rectal inversion" and the two terms are not interchangeable. We all get confused at times. This goes beyond confusion. There are some acts that, while they may be explainable, are not excusable. Remember the two pilots who managed to fly within a couple miles of the White House a few years back?

Problems with the system? The other 9,999 pilots managed not to screw this up. As soon as you design a fool-proof system, they will build a better fool.

Jeff,

OSH is a mine field of possible miscues no matter how much planning goes into it. Several years ago a war bird following established taxi procedures ran his prop through a RV-6, killing the pilot and scattering his chopped up luggage all over the ramp. It is a credit to organizers how safe the show is, but when that many airplanes are present under less than normal circumstances it is impossible to prevent unusual stuff from happening.

That being said, to subscribe to a long discredited government and corporate attitude of "blame the pilot" first and maybe the system won't be found to have a hole in it is not the way to go. The matter needs to be investigated to find out what caused it before convicting the pilot.
 
Dave, I agree with you that this matter warrants a thorough investigation. However, I fear that this matter will not be investigated, based on the "no harm no foul" approach that the FAA seems to take. We are then left to make our own judgments based on the facts and our own experiences.

The TBM/ RV-6 accident in 2006, on the other hand, was thoroughly investigated, discussed and debriefed. In the end, no significant changes were made to ground procedures, as the procedures were not found to be lacking. I believe that a similar inquiry into this incident would yield a similar result.
 
The evidence

If you argue that the pilot was not confused you would seem to be saying the pilot was on top of his game, had a great tail dragger unobstructed view, and he said to himself "I going to show these EAA organizers that I don't have to pay attention to their flagmen, and I'm going to take off against the traffic from this paved drainage surface just like I do back home." The fact that it was done is the evidence that the pilot was confused. I don't know of anyone who has built an RV and flown to Oshkosh that wants to screw up or look bad in front of his peers let alone the EAA and FAA.

The fact is anyone can get in any airplane, start it and taxi anywhere they want at Oshkosh, physically if not legally. There is no master-slave controlling procedure to prevent it. There was a requirement to go to a certain location and get a brief before starting the departure process. Is there any accounting for it - does everyone do it - does everyone even know about it - I don't think so. To the people in the know, this pilot's actions are not understandable. I used to be responsible amongst other things for making sure procedures and processes did not contain ambiguities or voids that could lead to mistakes or failures and I can assure you the procedures and their execution at Oshkosh are far from air tight and fool proof. There is a very great deal of reliance on the pilots not making a mistake.

When I departed there in 2006 I got the briefing, I pulled my RV-6A from the race plane parking west of the north-south taxiway, to the taxiway after getting the spectators to move their chairs. There was no ground person there directing me to go anywhere. I started up and joined the trail on the taxiway to the south end of the field. When it was my turn I taxied onto runway 36 (easy to see since I have an airplane that sits level in taxi mode) and waited for the guy ahead to complete his takeoff. I followed him as the instructions stated and waited for him to make the right crosswind turn to the fly to the lake. The turn was to be made before a certain point on the airport. He didn't make the turn but continued flying straight ahead toward runway 9/27. OK, here I am airborne flying north up the runway, I am committed to flight and the rules given to me for departure, "stay behind the plane ahead and make the right cross wind turn before a specified point on the airport and fly to the lake below a certain altitude", cannot all be adhered to. There is no way to deal with this without a violation of the rules. I turned before the specified point and I have no idea whether the guy ahead turned late, had some special agreement with the organizers or what. In turning I had to lose sight of the plane ahead but he was slow so I determined he could never catch me. Now, what affect this had on the plane behind me I do not know. Rules were broken and the risk of a mid-air was increased but it worked out OK. In an earlier Oshkosh (maybe the 1996 when I took part in the Aircraft Spruce GCCFR) there was a couple in a Europa that they had built that flew all the way from Washington State to attend the big show. They stalled on short final and both were killed. I am fairly certain they knew how to fly their airplane but were trying to follow procedures and maintain their place in the arrival flow. In another venue I flew to Sun 'n' Fun and was worked into traffic behind a Fairchild 24 that slowed so much on down wind that I would have stalled had I blindly tried to stay in perfect alignment and spacing behind him you have to exercise personal judgement in these situations and they are full of potential for mistakes - deadly mistakes if you are in the flying mode of operation.

The show could not go on without you and others like you that keep things going in a systematic way but I believe that this pilot should be located and asked what happened? What did you think you where supposed to do? What was your rationale for doing what you did? The answers are important.

Bob Axsom


I have to disagree with you Bob. Confused? What evidence can you offer in support of this? The fact that he blew right past at least two of the flagman who were trying to steer him in the correct direction is evidence that this was a deliberate act and not a moment of confusion.

Or, put another way- there is "confusion" and there is "cranial-rectal inversion" and the two terms are not interchangeable. We all get confused at times. This goes beyond confusion. There are some acts that, while they may be explainable, are not excusable. Remember the two pilots who managed to fly within a couple miles of the White House a few years back?

Problems with the system? The other 9,999 pilots managed not to screw this up. As soon as you design a fool-proof system, they will build a better fool.
 
I think the performance of his RV was so awesome that he was merely taxing along and it leapt into the air.
 
but I believe that this pilot should be located and asked what happened? What did you think you where supposed to do? What was your rationale for doing what you did? The answers are important
Bob,

You and I agree 110% on this important point. We've both stated our opposing viewpoints as well as we can, and, pending a further investigation, we'll just have to leave it at that. Probably a good a time as any to let this discussion fade away.
 
Bob,

You and I agree 110% on this important point. We've both stated our opposing viewpoints as well as we can, and, pending a further investigation, we'll just have to leave it at that. Probably a good a time as any to let this discussion fade away.
I might agree with this point except for the fact that if it does "fade away" I would most likely never hear about the "why's" of this incident. It is those "why's" that would allow me to learn anything from the discussion. Otherwise this discussion will turn out to just be a bunch of us complaining and conjecturing about the actions of a fellow pilot.

I would very much like to know why this pilot chose to perform such a dangerous activity.
 
I don't want to be this guy, but...

I would very much like to know why this pilot chose to perform such a dangerous activity.

reading this thread and others like it, I have the exact same question about flying into osh at all. :(
 
It's not as bad as some people make it sound.

reading this thread and others like it, I have the exact same question about flying into osh at all. :(

I think some people (myself included) like to tell stories of their Oshkosh arrival. You know what I'm talking about...for instance...."I had a cherokee off my right wing and a Cessna 172 off my left wing, I didn't know how it was going to turn out etc. etc. We tend to make it sound a little more exciting than it really was.

This year was the forth year I've flown into Oshkosh. The last two years I was PIC. This year I was alone in my airplane. I missed the extra set of eyes but it was no big deal. It's such a great feeling to arrive!!

When you hear the controller say "Good job, welcome to Oshkosh" you'll be so glad you flew in!

Mark
 
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