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Tore up my 6A - Need some guidance

FlyingBanker

Well Known Member
Patron
So, I tore up my 6A this morning. I was taking off and needed to abort the takeoff. Thought I had enough runway left, but didn’t quite get it stopped in time. Hit a wire fence and ditch at the end of our grass strip runway. No injuries (except bruised ego) and airplane did not flip. Collapsed the nose wheel at the end of the fork, prop strike, damage from a flying fence post on the left wing leading edge and top and bottom surfaces, damage to the left main gear fairing, top and bottom cowl, spinner, nose wheel pant, nose gear fairing. I know I will need a new nose wheel fork and top and bottom cowl and spinner. Will also need an engine tear down and new prop.

First, from what I read in the definitions in 49 CFR 380, even with all this, I believe this would be considered an incident, not an accident for NTSB purposes. Anyone disagree? I did call NTSB number and spoke with watch officer and gave details to be on the safe side. He was going to pass my contact info to duty officer for a call back. Haven’t heard from them yet. Was able to get the plane towed back to my hangar using a furniture dolly on the nose wheel.

I’ve also notified insurance company answering service, but heard nothing back from them yet either.

For the engine tear down, is that something I’ll need to take the engine off the plane and ship it somewhere? Or will I need to make arrangements to have someone come to my hangar? No experience with this kind of thing before this. I presume for the damaged parts, I’ll need to order replacements from Vans. I’ll wait to hear from insurance claims adjuster before taking any actions. I didn’t build the plane, so the repairs will involve some learning on my part. Anyone know if insurance will cover repainting in this kind of circumstance?

What else do I need to know at this point?

By the way, kudos to the Anti-Splat Aero Nose Job. While the nose wheel collapsed at the end of the fork when I hit the ditch, the nose gear leg itself did not collapse.
 

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Insurance should be a turn key deal in this type circumstance. You shouldn't have to do anything other than opening the hangar door for them, and the insurance company should do whatever is needed to have your airplane repaired and return it to you in 100% restored condition.

Are you at a private strip? If so, you may need to do, help, or coordinate quite a bit more than you would if you were based somewhere with serious maintenance capabilities.

Glad you're OK.
 
Given the extent of the damage and depending on your insured value, the airplane may be totaled.

Engine will need to come off of the airplane and inspected and repaired as necessary. Depending on the age and hours on the engine, an overhaul may make sense but insurance will only pay for the removal, inspection, and repair of the parts damaged during the accident. They will also pay for the reinstall of the motor.

What occurred that an aborted takeoff was necessary?
 
Glad you’re okay. It’s always a quick judgment call on what to do when things are not right during takeoff.

On a recent test flight I also discovered after takeoff my oil inspection door was unlatched and standing up into the airstream. I slowed down to 80 knots, continued to pattern altitude fully expecting the door to separate and smack the canopy. Luckily it stayed on and I was able to do a normal landing without issue or damage.

Like I said, it’s a quick decision that can have major implications. Sometimes we guess right and unfortunately a few times not so right. I once also made the decision to land on the remaining runway after discovering my canopy not secured and that worked out okay but only because I had sufficient runway and had just broken ground (less than 50’).

I won’t claim good pilot skills but it’s hard to beat good luck!
 
Sorry to see this Jim. Glad you’re ok. I’m with Lemos, insurance likely to total your plane.
 
Insurance should be a turn key deal in this type circumstance. You shouldn't have to do anything other than opening the hangar door for them, and the insurance company should do whatever is needed to have your airplane repaired and return it to you in 100% restored condition.


Glad you're OK.

You mush have never been in one of these rodeos. Insurance will only tell you how much they will give you. It is on the owner to find a shop to work on an experimental, negotiate the cost, and supervise all work. If there are issues or frustrations, that is your problem to address.
 
I saw I had left the oil filler door unlatched. I thought I had enough runway left, but didn’t account for wet grass. Would have been a better decision to go ahead and take off, and go around and land. If the oil filler door came off in flight, that would have been minor compared to the outcome.

Decisions are always easier with the benefit of hindsight.
I'm glad that you're OK. You can always repair or replace an airplane.
 
You mush have never been in one of these rodeos. Insurance will only tell you how much they will give you. It is on the owner to find a shop to work on an experimental, negotiate the cost, and supervise all work. If there are issues or frustrations, that is your problem to address.

You're saying I over-simplified? Maybe a little. Depends on the resources available nearby. Being at a private strip probably means the airplane has to be disassembled and moved in pieces to a maintenance facility. Pulling the wings is a big undertaking in a -6 or -6A.
 
I'm wondering if after engine/prop repair/replacement, nose gear replacement and engine mount inspection/repair it might not be possible to get a ferry permit to move the plane to an airframe repair facility. Hard to tell but couldn't the wing repairs be made with the wings in place? I realize that this would need expert inspection/analysis prior to flight. Just speculating here. I'm no expert and not making any recommendations.
 
From what I see

I’d say the engine will need to be removed and sent to an engine shop for a prop strike insp., prop might be repairable it will need to go to a Prop shop, wing tank will need to be removed, might be repairable by cutting a round access hole in the back baffle of each bay that has damage, top outboard wing skin should be repairable by removing the wing tip, motor mount and gear leg replaced. All that is going to take some time, sorry about your luck. Good luck with your repairs 🍀
 
Was really fortunate the plane didn't flip. Is there an Anti Splat stiffened under that nosegear leg?
Yes, had the Anti-Splat nose job installed when I bought it 2 1/2 years ago. Plus I had dissipated much of the energy by the time I hit the ditch. I almost made the stop.
 
The defining issue will be the wing damage. That will likely make it an accident.

That doesn't match my direct experience (at Airventure no less)

I had wing damage requiring replacing the forward skin outboard of the tanks. The deciding point, as I was told, was that the firewall was intact. it was documented as an incident.

YMMV
 
Hard to tell from the pictures, but I seriously doubt that you'll need a new prop. And, as the prop appears to be but little damaged, I think there's a good chance that you won't need to tear down the engine. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the motor mount has a bent tube or two, and that could mean removing it to be repaired. And again, can't tell from the pictures, but there might be damage to the right side of the fuselage right behind the firewall.

In any case, go over the whole plane carefully -- you might find a builder error or two that needs to be fixed while you're at it.

Be careful, keep us posted, and good luck!

Ed
 
The devil is in the details

Jim,

Glad you are safe. Been through something similar when a buck and my day-old (to me) RV-7 tangled on landing. You might want to look at the thread as I chronicled the journey with the insurance company. The damage, your policy, and your decisions will ultimately determine the fate of your plane.

Best of luck,
Mitch
 
Jim,

Very glad only the airplane was injured, not the pilot!

I suggest you push your RV back into the hangar and just let things settle down until your claim with the insurance is settled. I suspect you will not need to worry about repairing the engine or airframe, it is very likely the insurance carrier is going to write you a check for the value of your policy and haul off the RV for salvage to settle your claim.

Wing repair is very, very labor intensive on the RV-6 and -A because there are no interchangeable new parts, everything is built to fit a particular airframe. Wing damage that doesn't look partuclarly significant can involve enough labor that repairs exceed the value of the airframe. But don't worry about that now, just let the insurance carrier determine where you go from here.
 
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Buck strike

Mitch, can you post a link to your Buck experience, can’t seem to find it.
I remember reading it a while ago.
 
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Hard to tell from the pictures, but I seriously doubt that you'll need a new prop. And, as the prop appears to be but little damaged, I think there's a good chance that you won't need to tear down the engine.

Based on the description, sounds like he had a prop strike. And I’m guessing the dirt on the prop blade combined with the hole in the ground just in front of the prop are related..

The criteria for whether an engine tear down would or would not be required by Lycoming is here. https://www.lycoming.com/sites/defa...r Loss of Propeller_Rotor Blade or Ti (1).pdf
 
Based on the description, sounds like he had a prop strike. And I’m guessing the dirt on the prop blade combined with the hole in the ground just in front of the prop are related..

The criteria for whether an engine tear down would or would not be required by Lycoming is here. https://www.lycoming.com/sites/defa...r Loss of Propeller_Rotor Blade or Ti (1).pdf
Prop will need to be replaced. There was a strike that bent one blade and there is a fair gouge out of the leading edge on the other blade from the cable fence.
 
The FAA's definition of accident vs incident is covered in CFR 830.2
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID&node=pt49.7.830&rgn=div5

Their definition of substantial damage is -

Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered substantial damage for the purpose of this part.

Sometimes they want to wait until the aircraft has had some disassembly done to confirm there is no hidden damage that would classify it as substantial, but from what I can see in your photos, it is highly unlikely that this should be classified as an accident (compare all of the damage to the above list).

As for repair-ability? It is far more easily repairable than the RV-6A was that I own right now.

One of the big factors will be what vintage the wing kit was. At some point in the late 90's, RV-6 wing kits began to be shipped with pre-punched wing skins. If your airplane was built from one of those later wing kits, removing a damaged skin and replacing it with another p.p. skin is a very simple repair I have done it on the RV-6A that I own... bought it as a rebuild project (hence, the name in my signature).

BTW, engine tear down / inspection is highly recommended (and required by Lycomings SB) My airplane had the exact same propeller and just about the exact same damage from the engine being at idle on blade impact. The crank shaft was bent beyond repairable limits.
 
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Jim, Call Ray Lawrence just down the road from you in Sandersville. He's at KOKZ, Kaolin field. He's a an RV mechanic, works on them, has his own RV 4, and is known to be a very good sheet metal man. Coupla years ago, he fixed a bent wing (and bent spar) on an RV 9. Plane flies good now, I don't believe the owner has any complaints. That was an insurance job, about $30,000 bucks to fix---I think. His number is 4 seven eight, 232 nine 5 six zero. (I see everyone else spelling out numbers here on VAF, I guess to try an keep the scammers at bay??)

Good luck. Glad you weren't hurt.:)
 
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I dumped my RV-6A years ago on landing. Idling prop strike, and when the nose gear folded, the left wingtip touched the pavement (took out the left wheel pant, too). No fence, so no other contact. Both prop and engine went out for inspection. The engine came back Ok and the prop hub was Ok but blades replaced. The engine mount was destroyed and had damaged the firewall, but only one stringer behind the firewall was damaged (not counting the firewall stringers themselves). My adjuster came out and looked at the parts list, added the costs for the engine and prop, and also gave me a shop rate for the hours I estimated to repair. Insurance paid and I was back in the air three months after the incident.

Looking at your photos, you have engine mount damage and probably firewall, too, as the nose gear portion probably got driven into the firewall. A complete tear down and careful inspection of any affected areas is in order. The bad news is, if you are not the builder and need to transport it to a shop, removing the wings is tough (that's a lot of bolts). But it can be done; I know of a flying RV-6A that had a similar accident at the Bar-10 ranch in the Grand Canyon. After wing removal, it was taken by trailer to Sedona, where it was repaired. The good news: it can be repaired and can fly again. Whether insurance will 'total' it depends on your hull coverage and cost estimates.
 

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some major work. I don't even want to think about it. my condolences to the guys that have had this level of repair. hey, I forgot to latch my oil door one time. in flight it opened but didn't have any damage. in my opinion, if you are on the takeoff roll and the oil fill door opens, forget about it and continue, come back and make a normal landing.
 
Short version

Mitch, can you post a link to your Buck experience, can’t seem to find it.
I remember reading it a while ago.

I ultimately took a check for the policy insurance value, the plane was “totaled” put up for auction, acquired by someone in Mn who parted it out and kept what he wanted.

Initially, I had hoped to repair. But not being a builder, the cost for repairs ended up on the top (80%) of the policy value. If I repaired it I would have been responsible for overage (a given, considering the likelihood of hidden damage) so I opted to take the full amount and start over.

This allowed me to recover quickly and I acquired my current RV within 3 months of the deer strike. I miss some of the features of the old plane like the all glass Garmin setup and the MT prop. But the new airplane has its strong suits too…most excellent craftsmanship and stock IO-360 engine. BTW, the deer strike event was not classified as an accident in my case.

Mitch
 
If you are looking for a competent person or shop to talk with about the potential repairs, suggest you call Kent Gorton at 314-368-six zero zero seven.

He has a facility in Griffin (6A2) and does RV repairs frequently. He is busy, however, so patience is key.
 
The defining issue will be the wing damage. That will likely make it an accident.
Wing looks like leading edge sheet metal (tank and outboard) only. I doubt wing spar is damaged, subject to inspection.

An accident is which any person suffers death or serious injury, or in which the aircraft receives substantial damaged. I don't think it is substantially damaged (that is opinion).

What is substantial (Part 49)? Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component.

All of this is subjective. I have seen so much aircraft damage that was no doubt substantial this does not look too bad to me. Almost any damage to prop, engine, gear, sheet metal could be considered substantial. I am going to assume you check with FAA and NTSB they will tell you they don't need this to be reported. but I would run it by them.

You have 10 days to report it to FAA if an accident.

To OP, sorry to see your baby damaged, glad you are OK. All the best.
 
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My experience with a total loss of my RV6 years ago, was the insurance adjuster will make all the calls and handle the complete repair and or total it. It's out of your hands at that point. A friend of mine here locally just had a runway over run in his RV9A and his adjuster is handling it the same way mine did.
george
 
The FAA's definition of accident vs incident is covered in CFR 830.2
https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?SID&node=pt49.7.830&rgn=div5

Their definition of substantial damage is -

Substantial damage means damage or failure which adversely affects the structural strength, performance, or flight characteristics of the aircraft, and which would normally require major repair or replacement of the affected component. Engine failure or damage limited to an engine if only one engine fails or is damaged, bent fairings or cowling, dented skin, small punctured holes in the skin or fabric, ground damage to rotor or propeller blades, and damage to landing gear, wheels, tires, flaps, engine accessories, brakes, or wingtips are not considered substantial damage for the purpose of this part.

All of this is subjective. I have seen so much aircraft damage that was no doubt substantial this does not look too bad to me. Almost any damage to prop, engine, gear, sheet metal could be considered substantial.

I agree that at times, making the determination of substantial damage is subjective, but all of what you have listed is clearly not, by the FAA's own definition which I posted earlier.
 
If you are looking for a competent person or shop to talk with about the potential repairs, suggest you call Kent Gorton at 314-368-six zero zero seven.

He has a facility in Griffin (6A2) and does RV repairs frequently. He is busy, however, so patience is key.

I can also recommend Kent. I have watched as he rebuilt several wrecked RV’s. They come out great. He is as mentioned very busy so don’t plan a speedy rebuild.
 
Jim,
...

it is very likely the insurance carrier is going to write you a check for the value of your policy and haul off the RV for salvage to settle your claim.

...

I agree with Sam. If you have a shop at regular shop rates do all those repairs the insurance is likely to total your RV unless you declared a pretty high value on your insurance. If you do the work yourself many insurances pay a reduced labor rate to you compared to a shop and that might make it cheaper for the insurance to have you fix it.

Also depending on your insurance they likely insist on a teardown if you want to insure it again after the repair (as others stated it's also required by a SB which legally you are not forced to comply with but should anyway..). As the insurance will cover the cost of the tear down inspection and everything necessary to complete it they will not cover the cost of any repairs they deem unrelated to the accident and your overhaul shop deems necessary. That adds quite a bit uncertainty on your side.

Oliver
 
I am in the totaled group. Your parts that are still good have lots of value and the repairs needed are costly. Add liability and unknowns, the insurance company most likely total it.

If not. Does the 6 have an option for the new nose wheel mount? You will be taking the engine off. I don’t believe your mount would have survived undamaged considering the bending force on the nose gear. If you can get the new nose gear motor mount, get it.
 
So here's an update. Not totaled. Took a while to get insurance to OK repairs - lots of back and forth with the shop doing the repairs - Kaolin Aviation in Sandersville, GA. Ray with Kaolin had given a preliminary estimate based on initial visual inspection, but then insurance wanted a further disassembly to get a final estimate. That required them to come to my hangar, take of the wings, landing gear, and engine. Once done, a final estimate was provided to insurance and they OK'd the repairs. Parts have been ordered from Van's (supposed to take "several" weeks). Engine and fuselage were transported to Sandersville yesterday where engine teardown will occur and crankshaft sent for inspection and work begun on replacing firewall. Still going to be a few months, but at least things are moving.
 

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That sounds like the best possible outcome to me. Congratulations on a satisfactory negotiation with the insurer! Now we just get to wait for the photos of the repaired bird ready to go back in the air! :)
 
My experience with an accident. Insurance in my case would pay me to rebuild the airplane. I did not do that and had it done. It took them 16 months to do the work and it was not up to my standards. To do it again I would rebuild it my self, with insurance paying me.
I suspect that every situation is different. Best to you in what ever you do. Sorry to hear of your situation.
 
Vans credit

Ok, at this point, I think it is appropriate to recognize Vans for the great company that it is. Sometimes it’s hard to see when a company excels in so many ways until you compare them to the competition or in my case Certified world.

I got two Maules in various states of disrepair. I need parts. Guess what? I can’t call up and get parts made and on the way like Vans is able to do. I can call mfg, I can order, I can even pay, but possession is a whole another matter. If I was working on perhaps a v-tail unobtainable magnesium skin, then guess what, game over.

So, First, I am glad you had a safe outcome and not physically or mentally hurt from the incident. Second, I am very thankful that we have a company like Van’s that is willing to sell us parts in a timely manner and reasonable cost.

If you have only owned a Vans product then you are spoiled rotten and you know nothing, pun intended. The rest of us are truely thankful for everything that Vans does and that means every employee there from the crate builder, to the RV-15 designer, to the toilet cleaner. Thanks Vans!!
 
Explained here.

Glad the OP found a competent shop to make the repairs.

Interesting...the OP, Flying Banker, has been "requoted" by SPX in post #9 as saying he aborted the take-off because he noticed his oil door was open. But I cannot find any post whereby Flying Banker actually makes that statement.

Maybe that information was deleted....I wonder why?
 
Interesting...the OP, Flying Banker, has been "requoted" by SPX in post #9 as saying he aborted the take-off because he noticed his oil door was open. But I cannot find any post whereby Flying Banker actually makes that statement.

Maybe that information was deleted....I wonder why?

The original poster deleted the post......no need to stir that pot.
 
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