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East coast to OSH. Over or around the LAKE!

rockwoodrv9

Well Known Member
Patron
Im planning my trip to AV this year from mid Michigan and there are 3 ways to go.
1. South around the lake and get a good view of Chicago
2. North crossing at the bridge and coming in around the top
3. Over the Lake

It looks to be about 60 miles +- going over. I havent done the math but that leaves a gap of about 10-15 min if you go high enough where you cant glide to one side or the other.

I am interested in experiences for all 3 directions. I think I will end up going over the top but would love to know what others plan to do.
 
I’ve done the Chicago flyway over the lakefront several times, it’s a pretty interesting trip I neet Way to go. I’ve also flown across from Manitowoc over to Michigan coming home it’s about 53 miles. Sort of spooky because of haze over the lake we lose sight of land and can’t see too much around because of the haze. I was wearing a life jacket at 9500’ but still was a little nervous. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.
 
I have done all three versions coming from the Flint area going to and from Oshkosh over the years.

The more risk adverse options are to obviously go around the lake.

The Chicago Skyline Route is very scenic when the weather is good. Reference the Chicago FLY chart supplement and it has the appropriate altitudes, corridors, and freq's to use if you choose to talk to anyone. I have flown the skyline route about 5 times now and have seen perhaps 4-5 airplanes maximum at once also following the corridor. I just always remain vigilant of traffic, lights on, and head on a swivel. One downside is lack of emergency landing areas as you are over the water and the only feasible emergency option would be to land in the water just off Chicago. From the Flint area, this was my quickest way to get to Oshkosh.

The Northern Route is also very scenic and affords the chance to follow US-2 along the south coast of the Upper Peninsula for some of the best views Michigan has to offer (in my opinion). Safer with long, usually empty, roads along your entire path all but eliminates your chance of ending up swimming in the cold Lake Michigan water. Stop in at KISQ on your way by and hit up the Casino or head into town for a bite.

A third overland option is to go the south route AROUND the Chicago airspace. Cut some distance off the trip by going under the Chicago Class B on the west side. Doesn't take much longer at RV speeds and completely eliminates the chance of having to go swimming off the coast of Chicago where the river dumps who knows what into the lake...

As for OVER the Lake....

It's A LOT of icy cold, hypothermia inducing water. I've done it. I wore a life jacket. And some swear engines run rougher over that much open water...

FNT to OSH: Flying over the lake cuts ONLY about :45 mins (~110nm) off the Southern, Chicago Skyline route. Cuts about 1:20 (~200nm) off of the beautiful northern Route. All figured at 160 knots. 1:20 isn't much time to add to a flight when you consider never having to unintentionally go swimming that day.

I have three pics attached. One is the Chicago Skyline last summer with the smoke from the western forest fires. One pic is from the family Cessna 140 (not actually inverted... my story, sticking to it) a few years ago along the southern shore of the UP taking the scenic northern route home. The last pic is a goofy screen grab from my 360 camera (that the file got corrupted somehow) and hopefully you can somewhat see the vast amount of water that 60nm of water is.

Chose your own adventure, but I prefer the Chicago Skyline Route these days.
 

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I've flown all those routes, too, and I'll second the comment about haze over Lake Michigan. On one flight, it was technically VFR, but there was no horizon, so I was flying on instruments (and instrument rated and current.)

Last time I flew over the lake, I went up high, had oxygen, crossed at a relatively narrow point, and was IFR, but not navigating from NAVAIDs.

It's nice to look for ships and boats when crossing, but I've never seen many in the middle of the lake. Even if you landed in the water next to a boat, you could get mighty cold, mighty quick.

I've also seen huge amounts of traffic on the west side of Chicago when I land at DuPage to visit a friend. Chicago approach was swamped and not much help.
 
My first year going up from Cincinnati I did the skyline route. Unfortunately not much to see because of fog. It was scenic and classic because you could see the skyscrapers poking just above the fog deck. It really was the classic Airplane! opening sequence when watching for traffic coming off O'Hare.

Going around the southwestern side of Chicago is fine too. But nothing interesting at that point IMO.

I tend to prefer going over water. I tend to cross from Michigan City (KMGC) to Waukegan or Kenosha. I'm on oxygen, flying at about 12,500 - us 9ers like to be up high anyway for the long-distance stuff. While building my RV I did it many times with my cousin in his 182 at the time, crossing from Pullman VOR over to the same general area, usually up around 14,500. Never an issue.

Beware Chicago controllers regardless, especially that handoff (or lack thereof) from Kalamazoo Approach to Chicago. I've had the full range between a very cheery woman who actually sounded like she was having fun calling out the O'Hare departures climbing out for me, all the way to a grumpy b****ard who sent me up to 16,500(!!!! :eek:) last year or he'd drop me from flight following.
 
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be aware that with the water temps. most likely that life jacket is only to save a body for the funeral.
 
I remember a number of years ago a young man tried flying over the lake. He went down within site of I believe Milwaukee. He successfully ditched and got up on top of the airplane before it sank and was talking to 911 on his cell phone. They never found him.
Go around, it’s not worth the time or fuel saved.
 
be aware that with the water temps. most likely that life jacket is only to save a body for the funeral.

Ha ha……. probably true, but I’ll take my chances with the life jacket. I’ve flown across the lake a few times in a single engine plane, but not for a long time, and I’m getting more cautious in my old age. I prefer the Chicago skyline flight over the lake off shore. As others have said, if my engine quits I won’t be able to make it all the way to shore (from under the class B shelf) for much of that part of the route, but I wear my life jacket and can hopefully call for help on my way down. I’ve seen lots of airplanes flying that route, doing the same thing. You need to be looking for traffic, but realize that they can be an asset if you have a problem and if you can figure out how to get their attention. I monitor 121.5 in my back-up/monitor radio and many others do the same.
 
I am Chicago based and WILL NOT fly over the lake, at least beyond glide range. First, from my reading most low wing fixed gear planes will flip when landing in water. I speculate that they fill and sink pretty fast. Any head injury that knocks you out for more than a minute or so, puts you at risk of not getting out quick enough.

Second is the time to rescue. Unless they send a helo to pick you up, it can take some time for rescue on the big lake. ELT alone may not be enough as not sure they are waterproof-better have 2 radios and enough time to broadcast a full GPS position. If the ELT goes off for 2 minutes and then disappears, not sure they are sending anyone to the middle of the lake. Problem then is hypothermia. By August, the lake temps are in the low 60's (near the shore, probably colder in the middle), so survival for many hours is possible, assuming you are conscious and have the stamina to tread water. December to early May, the water is cold enough that you will only be conscious for 10 -20 minutes or less. Best to know the lake temp at the time of your crossing and find a chart that shows the relationship between temp and time to loss of consciousness. I just don't see the CG getting to you in under an hour. Then there is the challenge of them spotting you if you were not able to get a detailed GPS fix to ATC. Remember, your ELT is now 400' below water.

For me, it is just not worth saving 30 minutes. Everyone must make their own risk assessment though. Doing this without a life jacket containing a waterproof PLB is simply insanity IMHO.

Larry
 
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Further to the point; an experienced local based 185 on floats will go around the lake, as he feels the lake is too rough and unpredictable... from an experienced bush pilot.....

Fuel wise, if you cannot stay vfr, expect ifr routing well to the west of the class b ring perhaps "ahmed" or "start" from "jot"
 
When I was building my 7A, I had thoughts of flying to the Bahamas. Eventually I decided against it. Flipping on contact with he water is the major concern for me. I have a tip up to that would just put the weight of the plane on top of the canopy and nearly impossible to get out of. Yeah one could break the canopy etc etc etc etc. One friend suggested I simply take a magazine along to read while waiting for the pressure to equalize! :-/

I'll conclude with this thought... how many times in our lives have we had the thought, "Jesus in heaven, this could not have happened at a worse time!" Too many.

Eliminate the stress go around and enjoy the views while you enjoy the flying.
 
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If you go around the west side, watch the MDW/Midway traffic- they are dense pack and ATC doesn't make even all the 500' vertical VFR traffic advisories to the airlines, whether under the class C or outside and higher. MDW landing to the NE is the worst
 
I live in the Milwaukee area and have dealt with the lake many times.

The most scenic, as others have said, is to take the 2500' route along the shoreline past Chicago. Beautiful during the day, spectacular at night. If it's clear and your going by in the morning, the water in the lake can appear almost as beautiful blue as the Caribbean. But most of the time it's gray and not at all attractive.

If the ceiling is high enough, I go over the top of the Bravo. Generally speaking ORD approach isn't interested in talking to you and you can forget about being cleared through it. If you get yourself high enough so your intent to go over the top is clear, they'll be interested in talking with you as you're in airliner space. This is always the fastest of course as you're running straight lines and my 8 is more efficient and faster up around 11,000'. Of course you can always go over the Bravo without flight following, but I had a close encounter of the 747 kind up there one day and I prefer being in the system.

There have been a few occasion's when I've gone over the lake, all of them weather related. I've been cut off by a line of **** that beats me to Gary (KGYY) more than once. I'll only go across if I have my life vest along together with my EPIRB, which is strapped around my wrist the whole time. Also, I won't go other than June through September. In the summer months the water temp in the big pond can be 70 or 72 degrees F. You can survive for an hour and a half in that. In the cooler months the temp gets down to 50 or less, and you've only got about 15 minutes. Ain't no CG helicopter getting out to you in that time. Again though, I'm also always on flight following. If something goes wrong I want those rescue guys firing up the chopper as fast as possible.

No experience with the northern route.
 
I've flown to Corsica across the med in my RV-8 which is about the same distance over water as the Lake Michigan crossing. I was with two buddies in a gaggle of RVs. There are lots of ships out there. The weather was perfect. I was wearing an inflatable life vest and had a PLB in my pocket. The seas were smooth. Talking to ATC the whole time.

NGL, I was pretty puckered up, but it was beautiful.
 
Down load the Boat Watch App showing the ship traffic on Lake Michigan, many boats on the lake but most are near the shore.
 
You guys got me thinking…

I will be heading to Harbor Springs, MI (MGN) when I leave OSH. I was thinking I would cross the lake going direct to Mason County (LSM), then north to MGN.

After reading this thread, I’m thinking maybe that’s not a great plan. So now I’m looking for better rounding ideas. Maybe taking a northerly route, counter clockwise around the lake would be better.
 
Like others I've done all 3. The Chicago skyline route is a bucket list item and couldn't be easier. Forget flight following as center is to busy and will drop you. However, to be clear there is NO place to land and if the engine conks you will get wet. Maybe only up to your ankles, but your plane won't make it.

Over the top is scary but the plane doesn't know the difference. Get flight following, download a podcast to distract you, and don't worry about it. Theoretically. In reality I avoid this whenever possible.

The UP is fine if weather is severe clear, but don't even think of flying up there if it's marginal vfr. Airports are few and far between and so is weather reporting. Forecasts are area wide and cover huge swaths of the UP. Problem is the lake plays havoc with the weather and conditions can vary widely. You just don't know what you are going to run into, and there aren't enough outs. I came very close to dying up there when I ran into unforecast snow squalls....it was June.

There's no right or wrong answer here. Each option has its pros and cons. 95% of the time I fly the Chicago skyline.
 
Different days, different answers

Spent some time in my youth sailing dingy's on lake Ontario. Michigan will be pretty similar.

July the air is warm, but you are motivated to get back in the boat pretty quick if you fall out, which as a kid learning to sail you do a lot of. Do the sailing course in August, and swimming becomes a pleasant part of it, especially if there is not a lot of wave action

I don't want to play down the whole egress issue, but having also looked down at the terrain around the North of the lakes not sure anything there is a better option. That said, over the lake - the whole grey on grey thing is real, you should feel comfortable that you can keep the plane right side up for the crossing using instruments. If not go around.

Chicago is a great view, my default plan when coming from the East, and then I cut the corner if I'm getting late, or if I'm on a schedule. If you haven't seen it you should fly it - it sticks in the brain.

For both plans, I'll be wearing my life vest, PLB attached.

Outside of Aug really should be wearing the admittedly unstylish immersion suits we don't want all our eggs in the normally very reliable Lycoming basket.

Derek
 

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I’ve done both over the lake and around Chicago. Unfortunately it’s always been a very hazy and gray day when I’ve done the shoreline.

I tend to fly IFR to OSH and there are only two routes for me. Fly up near MKG then over the lake or fly south of Chicago to Madison then back to OSH. Every year the FAA is getting stricter about cutting the corners on their recommended flight route and getter more direct routing around Chicago.

Over the lake saves about an hour if flying IFR. I also will fly as high as the FAA will let me. Although I heard they didn’t enforce the 10k limit last year while in the MOAs. With that said, if there is any weather over the lake, I will take the southern route.

As many have mentioned, the risks vary on each route. We all have different risk tolerances. Choose the one that allows you to sleep better at night.
 
Around. Not even a close question.

We usually go south and west of Chicago on the way there, since Dekalb is a cool GA airport and they have free hot dogs. :) We always see amazing aircraft there. At RV speeds it’s not much of a diversion.

The Chicago VFR flyway also is an incredible experience. I think the frequency they list on the sectionals for that is just there as a joke, however — ATC has always been WAY too busy to handle us.

Traffic on the west side can be very active. Often as exciting as the flyway, in my admittedly limited experience.

My experience with cold water while scuba diving has cured me of any desire to go over the lake. Low 60s?!? Fuhgetaboutit. Not happening. That might even be cold water shock territory.

On the way home, we usually go over the top of O’Hare - simpler and there’s usually a good tailwind to the East Coast up there.


Im planning my trip to AV this year from mid Michigan and there are 3 ways to go.
1. South around the lake and get a good view of Chicago
2. North crossing at the bridge and coming in around the top
3. Over the Lake

It looks to be about 60 miles +- going over. I havent done the math but that leaves a gap of about 10-15 min if you go high enough where you cant glide to one side or the other.

I am interested in experiences for all 3 directions. I think I will end up going over the top but would love to know what others plan to do.
 
VFR/IFR? options

I'm not sure if you have IFR capabilities, but I do not, so when I and a friend went in 2019, we planned all VFR routing for our flight of 2. We departed central NC at sunrise with lots of marginal weather forecast for the Chicago area and east over the big lake. Enroute we had to stay SW of Chicago and landed in Pontiac Il (KPNT) for re-fuel. From there direct to Fond Du Lac where everyone was being diverted due to storms over OSH(Got into Osh later that afternoon). This was an easy route, minimal traffic. On return the stars aligned and we flew the lake shore south past the Chicago Skyline all the way to Gary IN and then headed back to NC. I highly recommend the shoreline one way of another. Less stressful on way home, not anticipating the OSH jam. I have gone across the lake twice, but in a Beech 18 and a Piper Aztec..I like two cooling fans better than 1 for that.
 

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In the cooler months the temp gets down to 50 or less, and you've only got about 15 minutes. Ain't no CG helicopter getting out to you in that time.

We had a sailboat on the lake so paid attention to the stuff. water temps did not get above 40 untill well into May. Time to loss of consciousness at 40 is around 10 minutes. Don't recall when they drop back below 40, but at least November. No meaningfull currents in LM, so shore temps are typically a good bit higher in the warmer months than surface temps further out.

Larry
 
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We usually go south and west of Chicago on the way there, since Dekalb is a cool GA airport and they have free hot dogs. :) We always see amazing aircraft there. At RV speeds it’s not much of a diversion.

The Chicago VFR flyway also is an incredible experience. I think the frequency they list on the sectionals for that is just there as a joke, however — ATC has always been WAY too busy to handle us.

Traffic on the west side can be very active. Often as exciting as the flyway, in my admittedly limited experience.

My experience with cold water while scuba diving has cured me of any desire to go over the lake. Low 60s?!? Fuhgetaboutit. Not happening. That might even be cold water shock territory.

On the way home, we usually go over the top of O’Hare - simpler and there’s usually a good tailwind to the East Coast up there.

On a nice weekend day, there is usually A LOT of traffic under the 3K and 4K rings due west of ORD. Much more traffic than the lake shore route. The problem with the latter is that most everyone is exactly 1-2 miles out from the shore and at 2900' Most of the scary traffic encounters I have had are on that route. Everyone is either north or south on the same line at the same altitude, with a 250 MPH closure speed. That is where I take new passengers for a ride.

Larry
 
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I will be heading to Harbor Springs, MI (MGN) when I leave OSH. I was thinking I would cross the lake going direct to Mason County (LSM), then north to MGN.

After reading this thread, I’m thinking maybe that’s not a great plan. So now I’m looking for better rounding ideas. Maybe taking a northerly route, counter clockwise around the lake would be better.

Rick,
The last time I flew across the lake was after leaving Oshkosh and going to a family reunion in northern Michigan in my RV6. I crossed between Sheboygan, WI and Little Sable Point just south of Ludington, MI, which was the shortest distance for my route. At 9,500’ I had a good tailwind, and I calculated I had about 6 minutes where I couldn’t make it to either shore if my engine quit. My equal time point was of course closer to the Wisconsin side because of the tailwind, but it was a clear day and I could see both shores at the equal time point. Still, it was not a comfortable time, and if I lost my engine during that 6 minutes, I would probably not have survived.

Taking the northern route would be something I would really enjoy if the weather was nice. I would fly up the peninsula NW of Green Bay, hop across the bay to Escanaba, follow the lake shore to Seul Choix Point just past Manistique, hop across the lake to Beaver Island (less than 10 minutes), and last short hop across to mainland LP and Harbor Springs. Beaver Island has two airports and fuel if you need it. But - the statement I’ve heard all my life is “if you don’t like the weather in Michigan, just wait 30 minutes”, because it can change quickly, especially in the northern Great Lakes area. When there is a large high pressure area parked over northern Lake Michigan, you should have good weather.
 
I have a slightly different perspective:
with 10,000 planes flying to Oshkosh and many of them squishing into the same corridors, the chance of an engine out in the short mid point over the lake seems less than some of the other potential conflicts. With ADS-b, they should know exactly where you are.
 
My first year going up from Cincinnati I did the skyline route. Unfortunately not much to see because of fog. It was scenic and classic because you could see the skyscrapers poking just above the fog deck. It really was the classic Airplane! opening sequence when watching for traffic coming off O'Hare.

Going around the southwestern side of Chicago is fine too. But nothing interesting at that point IMO.

I tend to prefer going over water. I tend to cross from Michigan City (KMGC) to Waukegan or Kenosha. I'm on oxygen, flying at about 12,500 - us 9ers like to be up high anyway for the long-distance stuff. While building my RV I did it many times with my cousin in his 182 at the time, crossing from Pullman VOR over to the same general area, usually up around 14,500. Never an issue.

Beware Chicago controllers regardless, especially that handoff (or lack thereof) from Kalamazoo Approach to Chicago. I've had the full range between a very cheery woman who actually sounded like she was having fun calling out the O'Hare departures climbing out for me, all the way to a grumpy b****ard who sent me up to 16,500(!!!! :eek:) last year or he'd drop me from flight following.
Obligatory check-in, thanks for the heads up about this thread.

As a general rule, if you can be above 10K then I prefer to go direct over the lake. Mind you, I am instrument rated/current so the loss of horizon, which CAN happen, doesn't bother me. If for some reason you can't go above 10K then the shoreline route makes sense.

A few equipment factors help support the "High over water" routing:
1 - Oxygen. Even though the FAA doesn't require it until 12.5K I have found that I do better using it any time above 10K. No oxygen, no lake crossing for me. I prefer to be at 14K going across anyhow, so this is a hard requirement.
2 - Engine monitor. The odds of the engine quitting randomly are low, but non-zero. If you have a digital engine monitor showing CHTs and EGTS for all your jugs then you should see trouble coming before it hurts your chances. If the monitor is showing anything anomalous, go around.
3 - Autopilot. Since you can lose the horizon over the lake the ability to keep wings level, even in nominal VMC, is desirable. My old 182 had no autopilot and I still did the lake crossing, but again am instrument rated/current. I have a 210 now that has an autopilot.

Risk management is very personal. I am not a stuntman but if the above 3 points are satisfied, and the weather is kind, I really don't see a need to worry excessively. If you are paralyzingly afraid your engine is going to quit every second of every flight then you have much bigger problems to worry about.
 
Thanks for responses. It has been interesting reading. Not to many on the fence - people are pretty strong in their opinions.

I have a couple G3X's in my panel and an autopilot that I am amazed by. I have an OX system so 14,500 is fine. I dont have the fear of engine crapping out in the 15 min gap but I didnt consider not being able to see the shore at all times. That could be the deciding factor. Maybe in a group of 2 -3 RV's going together but not by myself for sure.

I think the Chicago shoreline would be great but I dont like traffic either! We have only been in Michigan a few years and flew into Mackinac Island once. It is really nice up there so that may be the way I go.
 
Automatic or Manual inflation?

Outside personal choices and situations, when planing the crossing of water bodies where the shoreline is further than the gliding distance, while wearing an inflatable PFD, what would be the pros and cons of Automatic vs Manual inflation when strapped in a cockpit, maybe inverted working your way way out after ditching?
 
Outside personal choices and situations, when planing the crossing of water bodies where the shoreline is further than the gliding distance, while wearing an inflatable PFD, what would be the pros and cons of Automatic vs Manual inflation when strapped in a cockpit, maybe inverted working your way way out after ditching?

Years ago when I flew my RV across Lake Michigan and from Florida out to the Bahamas, the automatic floatation devices were NOT recommended. IF the aircraft were to get upside down (inverted) in the water, it could trap the user inside.
 
Chicago skyline is something everyone should do once

On a pretty day; It’s really amazing- a great experience that everyone should try at least once. In fact, pull back on the throttle and loaf your way along to enjoy the day.
 
It will trap you....

Outside personal choices and situations, when planing the crossing of water bodies where the shoreline is further than the gliding distance, while wearing an inflatable PFD, what would be the pros and cons of Automatic vs Manual inflation when strapped in a cockpit, maybe inverted working your way way out after ditching?


One very eye opening exercise Bryan the dunker guy does during his egress training is a save the baby exercise. Inflate a small infant life jacket in a confined space and you get to save the baby.

Pushing hard against the roof you can move the life jacket a foot to two... then repeat. It's hard work and most folks ran out of holding their breath before the "baby made it out.

The angles would make it near impossible to move yourself along the roof or out of a luggage compartment with an inflated jacket.


Derek
 
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Years ago when I flew my RV across Lake Michigan and from Florida out to the Bahamas, the automatic floatation devices were NOT recommended. IF the aircraft were to get upside down (inverted) in the water, it could trap the user inside.

Outside personal choices and situations, when planing the crossing of water bodies where the shoreline is further than the gliding distance, while wearing an inflatable PFD, what would be the pros and cons of Automatic vs Manual inflation when strapped in a cockpit, maybe inverted working your way way out after ditching?[/QUOTE


One very eye opening exercise Bryan the dunker guy does during his egress training is a save the baby exercise. Inflate a small infant life jacket in a confined space and you get to save the baby.

Pushing hard against the roof you can move the life jacket a foot to two... then repeat. It's hard work and most folks ran out of holding their breath before the "baby made it out.

The angles would make it near impossible to move yourself along the roof or out of a luggage compartment with an inflated jacket.


Derek


Yep,
Last night while mulling over this issue, I came to that same conclusion.
If right side up, Auto or Manual doesn't cause concern.
But inverted, if inflated, I can imagine it much tougher to swim downwards to clear the cockpit.
And in the event of helping a passenger getting out, the inflated vest could be a nuisance instead of a life-saver.
While Auto on a boat is definitely a plus, in an aircraft I tend to believe Manual is prefered.
 
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