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What I would do different, had I to do it again.

JackinMichigan

Well Known Member
As of this afternoon I have just under 30 hours in my RV-10, and I've compiled a list of everything I would do differently had I to do it over again.

1. I would have wired the headset jacks to the panel and not the Aeropsort center armrest. Makes disassembly of the interior a lot more difficult.
2. I would have not installed the Aerosport center console that goes right under the main panel. It takes up too much leg room.
3. Access panels. Access panels galore. Where ever you have an important piece of equipment MAKE SURE you can easily get to it.
4. Use quality electrical connectors on everything. No hard wiring, and allow yourself penty of extra wire.
5. I would not have allowed my father to try out his bodywork skills on the main canopy. It's not one of his better talents.
6. I would have added a backup flap activation switch on the main panel. I don't completely trust those little switches on the control sticks.
7. I wouldn't have added backup steam gages to the panel. I would instead have made room for a completely independent iPad and GPS antenna to be mounted on a removable harness.
8. I wouldn't have located the ELT quite so far back in the tail. Makes servicing it a pain.
9. I would have left the blue protective film on the aluminum skin as long as possible. We tore it all off right away, and our plane endured many nicks and scratches during the build process.
10. We ordered the quick build kit, and we would have inspected the quality of work much more closely. The workmanship was awful.

Anyway, that's my list.
 
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Thank you very much Jack, this is how we all get better. I am in early stages(pre build) and I am trying to take everything in and understand what would fit my needs best and this is very helpful.

For those reading the post, if you have points of your own to add it would be great.
 
and...

#4 would eliminate #1 in post above

1. Insulate the engine side of the firewall with fiberfrax and SS foil BEFORE mounting anything on it.

2. COMPLETELY cover every opening in the tailbone PRIOR to sanding/grinding fiberglass on the cabin top and doors

3. Run MORE conduits with fewer bends...probably would run a couple in the tunnel from sub panel to aft of baggage area.

4. Control Approach rudder pedals
 
Can I add to that list please:

1. I would keep everything as stock as possible and according to Vans plans. Extras and upgrades are a nice thought when buying them, but the extra time and effort doing the modifications that goes into fitting them is usually not worth the effort. If you were a bit too optimistic, as I was, and have bought loads of extras that you are now having second thoughts about, don't be afraid to just shelve them. A simple, safe airplane is all that one really needs.

2. Make the plane as light and simple as possible. If you have to think twice about adding anything extra to it that is not 100% essential, the best answer is NO.

3. When pulling your electric cables front to back in conduits, run the power and signal wires together in the same conduits for the equipment you are wiring. I thought I was being smart by separating and the running all power wires in 1 conduit and all signal wires in another conduit to avoid interference. The reality is you just end up with big spider webs where the cables come out at each end. However do pull extra cables and just tie them off. If you ever need to install another piece of kit in the future, then the cables are there and available.

4. Make the interior super simple. Annuals, servicing, or replacing components is a major pain when you have to remove all the extra interior panels and struggle with access. Inevitably it never fits the same afterwards and you develop those annoying rattles.

5. Invest in some better hardware, I find the stock screws in the kit very soft and they can easily strip the heads, even with the correct screw driver. I wish Vans would offer a premium fixings option, for more money they would supply you all SS or hardened fixings. I would be the first person to sign up to that and pay. I ended up getting SS hardware from Spruce and substituting it all.

6. When building, follow the plans exactly in the order stated in the manual. I had a delay waiting for some parts to arrive and so surged ahead in my build to save time. Only to find that I now struggled with access in going back to finishing the "Easy bits" that I had skipped for now. There is a reason for the order of doing things in the book.

7. Redundancy needs to be balanced with weight and its complexity. its nice to have backup systems, but one can easily go overboard in their design and have a backup of a backup of a backup ... etc with all the expenses and complexities of the wiring. In the unlikely and unfortunate event of a piece of equipment failure, do have a simple backup to get you safely back on the ground within a reasonable window of time so you can get it fixed. Anything extra is just weight and wires.
 
Minor anoyances and things I would do again

A minor addition for easier assembly:

Install the oil cooler mount when building up the firewall. It comes with the firewall forward kit and is a royal pain to mount after the front upper skin and/or engine mount and/or equipment and wiring and/or rudder pedals are installed. So order it ahead with the fuselage kit and install it while access is easy

Install those three little nut plates in the upper rear empennage before the skin is installed. You would need to be careful match drilling the rear faring, but that is less of an issue than installing the nut plates after the fact.


Get the full plan set on CD at the beginning so I could look ahead to see how and when things go together. Where things are located etc..


Hopefully a little thread drift is ok. Let me add a few things I think I did right and would do again with greater confidence:

I did the fuselage before the wings. My thinking was there is more system work to do in the fuselage and storing the wings in my shop is a pain not to mention the chance for rash and $10K sitting there for 2-3 years.


I built up the avionics wire harness outside of the airplane before installation using foam blocks taped in the avionic mounting locations to get wire lengths.


Everything I installed, I did with the thoughts of how I would service/remove when the time comes for repair and/or inspection (let me get flying for a few years before I grade myself on too high on this item)


I'll also decide over time if all of the extra lighting touches and switchology, custom fiberglass overhead and center console, not to mention the VPX Pro was worth the extra effort. I like what I have now, but only time will tell if it is reliable and used regularly enough to be justifiable. I probably added 100-200 hours of work to make this all happen. On the plus side, most of this was done while waiting for parts and sub-kits to show up.
 
Plane around door center latch, and wheel pant mount spacers.

Built in O2 system.

Tunnel side access panels for servicing the fuel pumps/screens.
 
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Humorous...

?...A simple, safe airplane is all that one really needs...?

I find it humorous when people presume to know what I ?need?.

Also, TLAR engineering is not recommended for replacing critical hardware; the recommended hardware in these locations was chosen for a reason and replacing it with softer SS or hardened parts may affect the structure?s ability to carry the require loads...
 
My main disagreement is with #1; when we redid the panel, we moved the headset jacks (all 4) to the center console.
I really like not having all the wires protruding from the panel, and it cleans things up a ton. Same for the backseat passengers, the wires are in the middle and not in the way when getting in/out.

Of course, we've not done a condition inspection since, so disassembly hasn't been an issue. But that's once a year, and I like the setup every time I fly...

Extra conduit is a great idea. I wish there was more under the baggage floor, that area is tough to access once finished.
 
Quick builds?

Hi Jack,

Mind me asking what wasn?t done well on the QB kits? That?s the first I?ve ever heard anyone say that. Hoping to start an RV-10 soon so just curious...
 
All one really needs?

Simple and safe - certainly. My '76 Cherokee is both of those things :p
 
For me the QB was well worth the money and quality was great, check thru all steps, I found that they missed a couple of things but also had done other steps listed to complete, Partain shipped mine and did a great job. Pete
 
The left main longeron on my QB was underformed. The curve on the fuselage side was too shallow. That created lots of fit issues in the neighborhood of the baggage door. With some factory guidance, I corrected it with a fairly substantial stacked shim.

Another problem with my QB was that the landing gear weldments contacted some of the spar and floor structure in ways that were not supposed to happen. Sure, the QB guys had made the weldments fit, but I had to pull both main gear weldments and relieve some aluminum structure so the aluminum structure and steel structure didn't grind against each other and damage both.

There have been a few other, lesser problems. Nothing show stopping, but it is a PITA to spend hours having to rework something you paid to have built correctly by the factory.
 
FWIW, in my experience the QB quality is definitely spotty. I think some people get lucky, but there are definitely others that don't and end up spending a lot of time doing rework.
 
I also have not heard anything bad about the quick build kits, I am curious as to what you didn't like regarding workmanship. I know a couple of RV-3 drivers who said the guys in the Philippines do a better job than I will ever do. :) JJ
 
The issues we had with the QB kits:
1. In the fuselage there were several parts that were riveted in the wrong orientation (upside down and such) which weren't discovered until well into the build. Fixing them proved difficult.
2. Overall quality of the riveting was spotty to poor, especially on the wings.
3. Both tanks leaked out the vent hole because the B-nut on the inside of the tank wasn't properly tightened or formed. The left tank was leaking past so many rivets that I eventually had to remove the tank and send it back to Vans. The right tank vent still leaks.
 
3. Both tanks leaked out the vent hole because the B-nut on the inside of the tank wasn't properly tightened or formed. The left tank was leaking past so many rivets that I eventually had to remove the tank and send it back to Vans. The right tank vent still leaks.

Here are a couple photos of the fuel vent fittings I found on my 9A quick build wings when I opened them up to add 3.5 gallon per side. The overall quality of the QB tanks left a lot to be desired IMHO.
40457760805_77c0e755d4_c.jpg
[/url]DSC02046 by David C, on Flickr[/IMG]
40639307464_5a67ec4ffb_c.jpg
[/url]DSC02045 by David C, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
Re built-in O2

My previous plane (C210) had built in O2 and it was a pain and $$$ to get it refilled. Many FBOs don't have and some that do require an A&P to fill; not the line guys. One solution is to build in the O2 and keep fill tanks in the hangar but that won't work on a long trip. My solution is to strap a tank (E cylinder) on the tunnel between the back seats. I can carry a spare in the baggage area. These can be exchanged at a medical or welding supply for much less cost than an airport fill. One tank will last from CA to OSH for one person with leftovers at 15.5K.
 
Background: Started build 2008, first flight 2011, 1100 hours, N215TG

Things I would have done differently (and in some cases changed after initial flights):

1) Come up with a better oil door latch (final solution still outstanding)

2) Bob Archer Antennas: Use a standard bent whip for both Comm radios instead of a Bob Archer antenna on number 2. Neither is a backup radio and the Bob Archer is sub-optimal for comm.

2.1) Not try to share a single Bob Archer Nav antenna between 2 Nav radios. The Bob Archer nav antenna works fine for approach work but it needs to be dedicated to a single radio (I now have 2 Bob Archer style nav antennas)

3) Less interior parts, more painted structure.

4) Should have alodined everything

5) Replace spark plugs with fine wire plugs when replacement required (anybody want to buy some new standard plugs?)

6) Install Rosen sun visors instead of a cheaper alternative (took 5 years to figure that out)

Best Things Done (with all possible restraint)

1) Attending 1 week long tail build class at Alexander Tech Center (no longer offered). Most productive use of time and money imaginable. I learned the basics of aluminum construction from a very experienced 21yo and had a chance to try multiple versions of each tool so I could select favorites.

2) QB option; my QB wings and fuselage were very high quality, generally better than I could do, but luck of the draw applies I guess.

3) Having decided to wire my own panel, use of Approach Fast Stack's wiring hub made it possible. I was able to order custom harnesses for all equipment. In selecting wiring and functional options, their expertise was right on target as evidenced by 7+ years of flying. They produced full and detailed documentation for the wiring of my custom panel.

4) Fabricating a center console with a RAM mount for the iPad and that encloses a removable E cylinder O2 tank (I first flew with no center console - flying with one is more comfortable).

5) Spending almost a year building a comfortable shop inside my hangar. Five years is a long time to be less than comfortable.​

And finally, here is another option for headset jacks. Putting the jacks right under your outside knee works real well in terms of staying out of the way and not ever requiring removal.
http://www.mykitlog.com/users/display_log.php?user=MauleDriver&project=224&category=4053&log=117561&row=5
 
These "what I would do differently" threads always have some great thoughts.

Keep 'em coming!

(This is the RV-10 subforum, if you're a "Today's Posts" kind of surfer)
 
My RV-10 empennage kit has moved to 'Assigned to Crating', so keep these coming, I'm taking notes!

On the keep it light and simple theme, I recall Burt Rutan's answer to all the Long EZ builders who kept asking him about putting this or that in the plane.
"Throw it up in the air, if it comes back down, don't put it in the plane" :)
 
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