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Where to start with avionics?

gregfuess

Well Known Member
So I've got the kits, engine, and propeller ordered. Narrowing down the options on the panel, and realize I need a serious avionics education. My plans for this -14 is to see north America, USVI, Bahamas, Alaska, and basically everywhere I haven't seen before, including OSH. I do not yet have, but very much plan to earn an instrument rating, and to use it.

What I need is an education on avionics. I haven't a clue whether all the below is desirable on a -14, ILS for example seems a bit much for a small GA airplane, but maybe it's something that everyone that has it is uses? Where can I turn to learn? Opinions are appreciated, but I want to know what and why I am doing whatever I decide to do.

With all the Garmin goodies, pre-wired and installed on a panel, the shipped cost is about $60k with VOR/ILS, two comm radios, a vertical power VPX unit, 3-axis autopilot, etc.

Appreciate the vast unpaid research department!

All experience and knowledge appreciated.
 
With all the Garmin goodies, pre-wired and installed on a panel, the shipped cost is about $60k with VOR/ILS, two comm radios, a vertical power VPX unit, 3-axis autopilot, etc.

I’ve built five dual EFIS glass IFR panels. You can do a lot better than $60K.

PM sent.
 
You mention that you want to get your instrument rating so let's start there. Currently the ACS requires the use of 2 different navigational systems on the non-precision approaches for your checkride. Word on the street this might get changed but I wouldn't hold ones breathe. What does this mean for you? Well, a GPS alone isn't going to cut it for the checkride, you will need either a seperate Nav box or better yet just get one of the more expensive GPS units that have Nav built in (like the GTN-650 or IFD-440). If however you plan on taking your checkride in a different aircraft then you can get away without the Nav function and shoot GPS approaches as almost all airports have this as an option.

If you plan on doing IFR work you will definitely want a good autopilot and two comms. Another reason to just opt for one of the higher dollar navigators is they usually come with a comm built in.

I too agree with Carl in that you can get a really nice IFR panel for substantially less than 60k, especially if you are wiring it yourself.

Do you have specific questions?

P.S. here is a pic of my IFR panel that comes in around 25-28K. Now that I have been flying awhile I am glad I did not go with a second screen and mounted the ipad instead. Using the ipad for all of my plates and general forflight work is very very nice.
 

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I’ve built five dual EFIS glass IFR panels. You can do a lot better than $60K.

PM sent.

+1. You’ll be spending a lot of money. Educate yourself on everything that’s available, their plus and minuses, and costs. And unless you’re certain, don’t assume you can’t build your own panel. Personally I greatly enjoyed this part of the build.
One common piece of advice: Avionics change relatively fast (compared to say, engines). Put off avionics purchases as long as possible, so you don’t have an obsolete panel on day one of your flying. I’d go one step further: If you’re serious about getting your IFR rating, get it now, and use it. That will put you in a much better position to decide what you want and need (and the difference between them). You’ll get all sorts of opinions on this (and I have an opinion, too) but in the end you’ll be the PIC, it’s your opinion that matters. An alternative is to build a bare-bones panel, with just enough to get your instrument rating (under the hood in vmc - unless you spend more for backups) and then, after some real-world experience, re-do the panel to what you want.
 
yep

I’ve built five dual EFIS glass IFR panels. You can do a lot better than $60K.

PM sent.

Yeah, I saw a preety good deal on an old Narco nav/com, KX155 w/GS, and two indicators. He'd probably even throw in the marker beacon receiver for free...substantially less than $60K...:rolleyes::D
 
Yeah, I saw a preety good deal on an old Narco nav/com, KX155 w/GS, and two indicators. He'd probably even throw in the marker beacon receiver for free...substantially less than $60K...:rolleyes::D

To the OP: you’re going to see some friendly - and sometimes not so friendly - banter here, about avionics choices. Everyone (me too) thinks they made the best choices! Which is why I suggested you educate yourself. It’s not easy: manufacturers love to show pretty pictures, but rarely tell you what’s really ‘under the hood’ that makes it all work. Just because Garmin is the most expensive does not automatically make it the best. Sometimes it isn’t. You need to find out about (hopefully rare) failure modes. How important is it to you that your efis automatically enters the tower frequency in your com? Will your manufacturer’s display accept data from (wingX, fore flight, inexpensive adsb-in box) or do your accessories have to come from the same manufacturer? Etc, etc. It’s unfortunate, but you need to do a lot of research to find the answers that are important to you. Or, just throw money at it and hope for the best.
 
Sounds like you have some time to make a decision, try to find a ride in a RV with a Garmin and a Dynon panel, then decide.
Stop by if you’re in the neighborhood, always glad to talk avionics :D
 
All the EFIS companies offer their pilot's manuals and installation manuals on line. You can download these and get a feel for what you'd like to use. If you have plans to get your instrument rating, your instructor can offer some guidance as to what equipment you should have. Also, don't neglect your local airport - just chatting with other pilots may help give you a feel for that.

One thing that might be helpful would be to try to get some idea of the learning curve for using all this glittering expensive stuff.

You'll have similar decisions for the engine equipment, prop, fuel system and electrical system. In my own experience the learning and decision-making effort was roughly as time-consuming as building say the fuselage.

Dave
 
I went with a full up Garmin dual screen G3x system, ADSB in/out, IFR NAV/COM/GPS navigator, second com, panel mount audio and autopilot controller, and a G5 backup. The cost of the equipment was around $35k. I paid the avionics shop I bought everything from another $6k to do interconnect drawings, pin to pin wire diagram, and build the avionics and engine sensor harnesses.

I cut out the Vans panel blank with a drill, rotary files and a dremmel.

It's about as serious IFR as I can cram into that tiny panel.

I'm not saying you should do what I did, just illustrating that regardless of the brand you go with, if you're willing to expend a little elbow grease you can have a top of the line panel for significantly less than $60k

I can also assure you that I had no idea what a CanBus was, but I educated myself and it turned out to not really be that big of a deal to wire all that stuff up, especially since I had the bundles prebuilt.

As far as ILS, I believe that the comments that you have to have one to do a IFR check ride are based on old data, but I'm sure somebody will chime in to confirm that one way or the other.

It was a must have for me just because I'm not comfortable having all my eggs in the GPS single source basket in hard IFR, but that was always going to be my personal choice, no matter what the regs may or may not allow.
 

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Wow

"...To the OP: you’re going to see some friendly - and sometimes not so friendly - banter here..."

Wow, a bit sensitive?

My comment was in no way meant to be "not so friendly"...in fact, the equipment I referenced were the ones I personally used to get my ratings. Indeed, they were also for sale; cheap, too.
 
I'll just let the Sensitive Bob's battle it out in the octagon. :rolleyes:

My Dos Centavos to the OP: get your hands dirty with the avionics. You will gain a lot of knowledge that will pay dividends down the road when things go south (both on the ground and in the air). Certainly pay for the convenience of others doing work for you as you can afford, but remember that one size does not fit all. I just spent a good deal of time removing DSub pins from connectors that were lovingly assembled in Minnesota after several AMU's left my wallet, as it made for a much easier time of putting long runs of wire where they needed to be in my particular airplane (granted, this was a retrofit to a flying airplane, but again, one size does not fit all).
 
Timing

Ideally the avionics would be purchased as late as possible for the reasons mentioned above, however I chose to order ahout 6 months early because of current long lead times and shortages for many brands.

It is helpful to know what main avionics will be installed before the airframe is complete, so as to provide for brackets and wiring runs while access is still good.
 
One more comment from "sensitive Bob" to the OP. Hopefully you've noted that the actual legal requirements for EAB to operate under IFR (which will be found in your operating limits) are very minimal - more relaxed than normally certified aircraft, where their type certificates require dual power sources for the primary flight instruments, etc. No such requirement for EAB. But that doesn't make it a bad idea! A lot of planning, and money, will go into the "what if's", and how comfortable you are with the risks involved, fewer or more backups, etc. I know of some EAB pilots who venture into IMC with a single source of attitude; I also know some who won't go without 3 independent sources. Many seem content to rely on gps as their sole source of navigation; Terry, and myself, don't feel comfortable without an ILS on board, even though it is rarely used (but I have watched, from the right seat, as a pilot under the hood experienced an unforecast gps outage on approach to LVK. It wasn't pretty. And if it had been IMC and we didn't have a VOR the miss would have been 'exciting' to say the least.) But anyway, a lot of the different opinions are directly related to the fact that when it comes to redundancies for IFR operations, the FAA has left it pretty much up to you.
 
One more comment from "sensitive Bob" to the OP. Hopefully you've noted that the actual legal requirements for EAB to operate under IFR (which will be found in your operating limits) are very minimal - more relaxed than normally certified aircraft, where their type certificates require dual power sources for the primary flight instruments, etc. No such requirement for EAB. But that doesn't make it a bad idea! A lot of.

Would you enlighten me to the regulation you are referring to or where in the TCDS this requirement is?
(I just looked at the SR22 tcds and can’t find this requirement but maybe I’m missing it)

This is the closest thing that refers to failures that I know of:
§ 23.2615 Flight, navigation, and powerplant instruments.
In combination with other systems, be designed and installed so information essential for continued safe flight
and landing will be available to the flightcrew in a timely manner after any single failure or probable combination of failures.

STC’s for installation of “Glass panels” in part 23 aircraft, to the best of my knowledge, DO NOT require the installation of dual power sources (I assume by dual power sources you are referring to dual battery/alternators and not small backup batteries like we generally use)
 
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First thing I'd do is read up on the FAA MON program, so I know where VOR/ILS is going to fit into the grand scheme of things in the (near) future.

https://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/fli...ontuation_of_VOR_Services_Briefing-Mendez.pdf

Next, I'd download and read something like chapter 2 (System Overview) of Dynon's Skyview pilot's guide and, at least chapter 2 (System Planning) of the Skyview installation manual. Both are available for free on Dynon's website. I'm sure Garmin has similar. But, since I went Skyview, I haven't really looked.

Next, I'd sign up for one of the EAA avionics installation workshops.

By then, I think you'll be plenty educated enough to plan and shop for an instrument panel. But, like a previous poster, I'd also recommend putting off avionics purchases till late as possible for 2 reasons:

1) Neater stuff is comming out, you don't want stuff to be "old" before you even turn it on.
2) Supply chain sucks right now with chip shortages and everything else. I suspect things will get better in the future (not any cheaper though).
 
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So here’s an alternative view. If you haven’t built before do yourself a favor and hold off on the avionics. Some people, especially with qb kits can knock out an RV in 18 months. Others can take a decade. Change jobs, move, get divorced, life can throw 100 different curve balls at you. Avionics are changing faster than probably at any time in aviation history. If your build takes you more than 4 or 5 yrs there will be stuff on the market that doesn’t exist now. It might be better, or cheaper for the same capability, or simpler to install etc. also there can be changes to the requirements (adsb, 406 elts for example) I would hold off until you really have to do the panel. Sure planning the panel and buying goodies is fun, but it’s no fun going to Osh and seeing way better newer stuff coming out, rendering your stuff old and worth a fraction of what you paid. My 3 cents worth (hey - inflation is everywhere).
 
My plans for this -14 is to see north America, USVI, Bahamas, Alaska, and basically everywhere I haven't seen before, including OSH. I do not yet have, but very much plan to earn an instrument rating, and to use it.

Greg: most people were in exactly your position, and many educated themselves on avionics design and installation. My situation is broadly equivalent to yours - after asking lots of questions, I'm designing my system right now.

You're getting good advice: check the requirements for where/how you want to fly, and be aware they evolve; read install manuals; plan to do some/much work yourself; talk to other IFR pilots; and take a hands-on workshop to get started.

Contrary to some, I recommend you freeze your design early, and make your purchases soon after, rather than pursue future "better" performance, price, or appearance.
A design that meets all your requirements today will still meet your requirements in the near future.

I'm taking this approach in part because that's my engineering experience, and in part as an adjustment to the availability of parts.
I'm betting on the quality of components, vs. waiting as long as possible to buy, in order to extend a warranty period. Your experience, education, and perspective may well differ.

Happy to chat if you want - PM for phone.
 
Avionics changes fast. Having spent time on my back under my panel doing just that, if I was starting from scratch, no question that I’d be talking to Rob Hickman at Advanced Flight about an Advanced Panel. The modularity of the Advanced Control Module would solve a LOT of installation problems and especially upgrade pain later on.

https://www.advancedflightsystems.com/advanced-panels.php
 

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