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Revision to SB-00036 document and replacement parts

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PilotjohnS said:
Has anybody report cracks on an RV9 or RV9A?
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Not that I've seen, or have heard of reported locally. My -9A only has about 400+ tach hours on the airframe, has not seen any aerobatics AFAIK, although I'm the third owner. I could see the rivets just fine from the lightening holes on either end...didn't stick a borescope in there. No cracks.

..
 

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1251 hours on my airplane, 7 years, no cracks. 180hp, Whirlwind CS prop.
 
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What’s the max size hole you can drill for getting the boroscope in for the RV-4.

How about a hole in the middle for inspection.

The rear hole is too close to the end and the boroscope might not turn 90degrees for a clear picture.


greghughespdx said:
Our engineering team is reviewing the manufactured parts shipped as part of SB-00036 and has issued a revision to those parts due to an unanticipated potential fatigue issue that was just discovered. As a result, we have placed all pending shipments on hold until that process has been completed. We have also published SB-00036 REV1, which includes the inspection steps but has the steps related tp installation of the new hinge brackets removed (we will update with new instructions once the new parts are ready). It also includes information outlined in this post.

We've sent an email notification to customers who were already shipped SB-00036 kits. Those kits contain replacement outboard elevator hinge brackets for RV-4/6/7/8 aircraft. We are also emailing all builders who received the newer hinge brackets in their RV-7 and RV-8 tail kits in late 2022 and January 2023.

Builders/owners who have received these parts but have not yet installed them are advised to hold off on installation and wait for replacement parts. If you have installed them on a flying airplane, you may continue to operate the aircraft until the revised parts are available, at which time they will need to be replaced.

If you ordered the SB kit but have not yet received a shipment notification from Van's, know that we have placed your order on hold until the new parts are available. A kit with the new parts will ship to you automatically as soon as they have been manufactured and received. For those who have not already, you can also pre-order the SB kits on the Van's web store, and they will be shipped as soon as the new parts are available.

Van's is prioritizing the production of these new parts and we will strive to ship the replacement parts as soon as possible.

We recognize and apologize for the trouble this unexpected revision creates for builders and owners who have already received - and in some cases installed - the problem parts, and the delays shipping to those with parts on order. We take the revision process very seriously. Due to the potential fatigue issue with the affected parts it was deemed necessary to replace them.

We will communicate with affected customers via email and - of course - here on VAF about this in the next several business days, once we have a timeframe established for the revised parts.​
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RV-6, 4400+ hours, no cracks
RV-8, 2100 hours, no cracks
RV-3 … scratching my head on how to inspect…..
 
Stevea said:
2.

Tooling holes are 1/4" diameter. If you have a borescope that works with that...great! Otherwise, enlarging the tooling hole is not a big deal using a step drill. (Getting the chips out, maybe.....but I managed to vacuum them out.)
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Standard tooling hole diameters on kit parts as delivered from vans are .189 inches, so basically 3/16”
 
jull_under said:
What’s the max size while you can drill for getting the boroscope in for the RV-4.
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Van’s answer to a similar question when asked about drilling a new hole, fwd of the existing tooling hole was to maintain the standard 2D edge distance
 
How to get powder coated parts

greghughespdx said:
Our team's made substantial progress on the final design and testing of the replacement SB parts for the elevator hinge brackets. We have scheduled manufacturing time, and we will be able to update further in the next couple of days, at which time I expect to be able to share a more specific timeline.

A few people have inquired whether they should expect parts in the next couple/few weeks, vs. multiple weeks or months. We are striving to get parts out the door as soon as possible. Assuming no major roadblocks between now and then (and roadblocks do sometimes happen), our target timeline is within the next couple of weeks. (Please don't quote me or tell anyone I told you that, though. It's just between us.)

Note that we will probably provide the parts - at least initially - without powder coat applied, which will allow us to get them out the door and in your hands as soon as possible. The owner/builder will just need to clean the steel parts and apply a coat of self-etching primer before installation.

We will post additional info soon. Thank you again to everyone for your understanding and patience.
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If we have already ordered, what is the process to notify if we prefer to wait for powder coated parts? Should existing order be cancelled?
 
Please don't flame me for my ignorance but I am wondering if engine horsepower could be a factor causing cracks. Would an airframe powered by 180hp, or even pushing 200hp be more prone to cracks vs one powered by a 150 or 160 hp engine? Would we see more vibration from larger engines on our relatively small airframes??

If so, perhaps to enrich the database, we could also include horsepower in our reports of cracks vs no cracks.

6A of 2006 vintage, 400hrs, 150hp no cracks.
 
If you would like powder coated hinge brackets , call vans store and have them put “PC” remarks on your order
 
RV-7A, 900 TTSN, Lycoming IO-360-M1B w/ Hartzell BA, no cracks.

BTW, *thank you* to whomever found that little bitty Depstech borescope and saved me from the anguish of drilling the tooling hole bigger!
 
Rear Spar crack repair

This is a question for Greg Hughes:

I have an early RV8 (80209) which was a slow-build kit. I am concerned about the holes in the new bracket aligning with existing holes, AND the spacing between the inboard and outboard brackets aligning with the spacing between the rod ends on the elevators.
An earlier post (which I cannot find - perhaps deleted) asked if a "diamond shaped" pattern could be used rather than the original rectangular pattern.
The new bracket will be taking the bending loads in shear to the spar flange and skin top and bottom. This will eliminate the push-pull loading on the spar web rivets which caused the cracks, so that they too will only be loaded only in shear.
My question is this: If the new bracket holes do not line up properly, could I use the diamond-shaped pattern so that all new holes could be used? This would also eliminate the loading on the original, cracked, holes.
Thank you for your attention, Greg! Your hard work on this service bulletin is greatly appreciated.:eek:
 
RV-4 completed 2005, fifth rivet in the center of the brackets, 1600 hours, 180hp, constant speed composite prop, lots of acro and formation maneuvering, no cracks
 
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8MikeXray said:
If you would like powder coated hinge brackets , call vans store and have them put “PC” remarks on your order
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FYI - I called this morning and got confusion uuhhs' and aaaahhhs's and nothing definitive. Good luck. NP,

If this is the procedure, it is not known to all the parts order "agents".
 
Beyond inspections, and replacement parts ordering issues, I'd really like to hear someone's post mortem if they have to do any serious R&R, and get to some real root causes (and not just "maybes" or "could bes"). Were there workmanship issues, such as holes not being properly deburred? Riveting issues? Alignment issues?

Obviously this doesn't help anyone who has cracks, but might be a case study in prevention...
 
Update re delivery of new SB kits/parts

A quick update on the SB-00036 parts revision and plan:

Our team is completing the manufacturing of revised SB-00036 parts. A few notes about what to expect:

We expect we will be ready to start shipping parts later this week and/or next week. We'll ship them out as soon as we are able, of course.

Note that if cracks are not found as a result of the inspection described in SB-00036, no action is required on the part of the builder. In that case, installation of the SB parts is optional and it is important to follow the recurring inspection requirements in the SB document. The owner may elect to install the new parts if no cracks are detected. In the next revision of the Service Bulletin, we will include instructions for aircraft where cracks are found and stop-drilled, and separate instructions for aircraft without cracks, to be followed when applying the SB parts. More details on this will follow soon.

When we issue the revised parts and the service bulletin, we will outline use of the SB parts for each applicable aircraft model, condition, and configuration. We expect we will delineate between the RV-4 and RV-6 parts to accommodate some slight differences in design. The RV-3 is varied enough in its construction that we will likely issue guidance on the fabrication of parts to fit each unique airframe.

Details about how you will receive the parts:

  • People who received affected parts in their RV-7 or RV-8 empennage kits in late 2022 or January 2023 will have the replacement parts shipped to them automatically. No further action is needed on the builder's part.
  • People to whom Van's already shipped affected parts as part of the SB-00036 kit or early installation will automatically receive replacement parts as well. No further action is needed on the builder/owner's part.
  • People who have an SB-00036 kit on order that has not yet shipped will receive the appropriate replacement kit. Van's will process the changes and ship these kits without any further action required on the builder/owner's part.
  • If you've not yet ordered an SB-00036 kit, you can order now via our online store, and we will send you the updated kit when available.

People have asked about this issue as related to the RV-9/10/14. We are currently in an inspect-and-report-only mode, as per SB-00036. We will continue to collect reports from the field and if any issues are discovered, we will of course take action. Until then the only requirement is to inspect and let Van's know if you discover cracks. We have had no reports of cracks on those models, where the rear spar material is considerably thicker than on earlier models.​
 
BillL said:
FYI - I called this morning and got confusion uuhhs' and aaaahhhs's and nothing definitive. Good luck. NP,

If this is the procedure, it is not known to all the parts order "agents".
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That's not "the procedure," per se. All parts that ship in the near future will not be powder-coated, in the interest of getting them out as soon as possible. We assume that builders/owners are quite capable of priming (and painting if desired) their steel parts.

If you want to wait (a yet-undetermined period of time) for powder-coated parts to be available and you email us (please include your original order number) or call, we will add you to a list. If you don't care about powder-coat, please don't call - our call takers are quite busy and for anyone who already has an order in we have you covered. We will ship your order with the uncoated parts included, which you can prime/paint.

If you have not yet ordered parts and you want to wait for powder-coated parts, please do so on our web store - and tell us in the Order Notes field that you want us to hold your order for powder-coated parts when you check out.

NOTE that powder-coated parts will take considerably longer for us to receive and ship to you. There will be a delay. We cannot tell you right now how long that delay will be, so no need to call and ask. We don't know yet. When we have a timeframe, I will post it here.

For those who receive uncoated parts, you can prep and spray them with a self-etching primer (I prefer SEM for this type of thing - You use that or another favorite of your choice), and that will work just fine.

More info as we get closer to shipping parts. Thanks for your patience.​
 
Greg,
Based on previous communications from Vans some of us halted work on our RV-14 rear Horizontal Stabilizer spars. I take it from this update that those parts are now not likely to be revised and we can therefore get back to work?

Or does Vans anticipate revising them?

Thanks!!
Tim
 
Maybe cracks

RV-8, 730 hrs.
Occasional mild aerobatics. Pretty much just aileron rolls and Cuban 8s.
Occasional landing on rough dirt strips. Occasional landing at KRTS, which has the widest expansion joints in the world and really bang the tail when you taxi, and it is a long taxi.
WW 200RV, HRT prop, always dynamic balanced to within 0.02 IPS.
No binding of elevators at all. They swing free over full range. I machined special spacers to fit the bearings at the elevator horns so that they don't pinch. Other bearings adjusted to be concentric.
All holes deburred during building.
Rivet manufactured heads on steel brackets, shop heads inside on the aluminum spar
Primed with PPG self-etching primer

I'm trying to figure out how to download from a mini-SD card, and I will post some pictures, but what I found was:

On the inboard-most rivets, there is a might-maybe-be a crack on the left upper and right lower.

These don't seem like the most likely locations for cracks, seem like the rivets that are most likely to start cracks are the ones closer to the elbow side of each bracket - where the hinge would be putting load into the bracket. So, the middle two pairs of rivets on each side.

Both "cracks" are extremely faint, and at just the right angle, show bright metal through the primer. These are so faint that a less-then really keen look and you would miss them.

There is no black "smoking" that would indicate a working crack.
Honestly they look more like scratches from a tool. But I don't know why/how I would have a scratch in a place like that.

I'll keep an eye on them for now and see what happens to them. I'll probably do the SB replacement when I can.

I'm posting this now because this airplane doesn't fit the pattern of when/where cracks have appeared, and doesn't have most of the suspected possible causes. (exception being the shop heads on the inside).

I'll add pictures when I can.
 
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Cessnadog said:
Greg,
Based on previous communications from Vans some of us halted work on our RV-14 rear Horizontal Stabilizer spars. I take it from this update that those parts are now not likely to be revised and we can therefore get back to work?

Or does Vans anticipate revising them?
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As of today, TBD: Our ongoing analysis of the RV-9/10/14 HS rear spars will be completed after we finish the revision work we're doing right now for the 6/7/8 parts. Our priority is driven on the fact that we've not seen any field reports of issues on the 9/10/14 models to-date, but we also know that people are trying to plan their builds/downtimes/etc. As soon as we determine if there are any necessary changes (or lack thereof) we will communicate such. Ultimately (pun fully intended for all the engineers out there), our detailed fatigue/stress analysis will be the main factor informing these decisions. That review process has been started, but is not yet finished.

So, it's hard to know exactly what to tell you until our analysis is complete. While we'd love to tell you something for certain today, what we can tell you is this: We will get it done and inform owners/builders as soon as possible. More info soon.​
 
Torque values

It would also be helpful to include all the torque values for nuts when removing elevators. SB’s need to assume we are not the builders.
 
tracy said:
It would also be helpful to include all the torque values for nuts when removing elevators. SB’s need to assume we are not the builders.
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Those are standard values and are documented in Section 5 of the kit assembly instructions. You can download that though your Van’s web store account or from the service information section of our web site for free if you don’t already have a copy of the plans. A direct link is also provided below. We almost always refer to kit plans in service bulletins, and expect that every owner either received a copy of the applicable plans when they acquired their RV or got one from Van’s, and that they keep them up to date using our posted service info as appropriate.

Link to Section 5: https://www.vansaircraft.com/service-information-and-revisions/5/
 
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@greghughespdx

Any word on parts for the RV-3's? I know we're smaller in the fleet, but I'm grounded and starting to get the shakes. :)
 
Maybe crack?

Inspected front face of spar today--228 hours, no acro, no rough field landings. This pic is the right side, inner most, upper rivet. After looking at this pic for better part of an hour-I'm beginning to wonder if this is a piece of spider web and not a crack. All other rivets look fine. Thoughts anyone?
 

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skyking902001 said:
Inspected front face of spar today--228 hours, no acro, no rough field landings. This pic is the right side, inner most, upper rivet. After looking at this pic for better part of an hour-I'm beginning to wonder if this is a piece of spider web and not a crack. All other rivets look fine. Thoughts anyone?
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Stick a pipe cleaner in there and see if it comes off.....looks like some trash to me.
 
yes that sure looks like a spider web.

No shadow because the light source is coincident with the camera.
 
skyking902001 said:
Inspected front face of spar today--228 hours, no acro, no rough field landings. This pic is the right side, inner most, upper rivet. After looking at this pic for better part of an hour-I'm beginning to wonder if this is a piece of spider web and not a crack. All other rivets look fine. Thoughts anyone?
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Why not just take some more pictures?
 
Two without cracks

Inspected a RV-6 with 2750 hours fixed pitch, lite acro and an RV-7 280 hours, constant speed, no acro.
 
scsmith said:
yes that sure looks like a spider web.

No shadow because the light source is coincident with the camera.
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Right, but you can see the contrast in the shadow of the rivet - this looks like spider web to me. Tape a pipe cleaner to the head of the camera and give it a rub.
 
@greghughespdx

Thoughts about drilling an extra hole. The tooling hole is too close to the aft edge and I don't know if the boroscope is going to bend enough to provide a clear picture.
 

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jull_under said:
@greghughespdx

Thoughts about drilling an extra hole. The tooling hole is too close to the aft edge and I don't know if the boroscope is going to bend enough to provide a clear picture.
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Try with the elevator down (there was more room on my -4 in this config) and put a 1/2” step bit in an extension so the drill isn’t in the way. I was able to do it that way and only needed to enlarge a little bit. Also, get a borescope with two cameras so you have a good quality image at 90deg to the main camera.
 
skyking902001 said:
I'm beginning to wonder if this is a piece of spider web and not a crack. All other rivets look fine. Thoughts anyone?
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That looks like a hair from a paint brush or something similar that got embedded in paint or primer. As someone else said, it carries up onto the head of the rivet.
 
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