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Landing light retrofit

00Dan

Well Known Member
I’m exploring options for retrofitting a landing light on a flying -4. From what I’ve seen the options are basically either leading edge or wingtip. With wingtips already finished that pushes me towards leading edge (as I see it).

For leading edge kits I’ve seen the duckworks kit that Van’s sells and a generic kit that Spruce sells. Are there any others I’m missing?

For a leading edge install, I see most people do one in each wing if just for symmetry. However, I’ve heard from some locals I’ve asked that installing just one and aiming the light is more effective. Thoughts?

Any other considerations? I haven’t purchased any parts yet. I’m not a builder but I aim to do some of the work myself (with appropriate tech help).
 
You want to see where you are flying? or see where you are taxiing? Two different angles with a tail dragger.

Your buddies are probably flying nose geared airplanes, less of an angle difference.
 
You want to see where you are flying? or see where you are taxiing? Two different angles with a tail dragger.

Your buddies are probably flying nose geared airplanes, less of an angle difference.

Good point, the main advocate for just one flies a 6 with the third wheel installed backwards.

Ideally I’d like both effective landing and taxi lights. I see the flyled combo light seems pretty popular for achieving that in a taildragger.
 
I had one Duckworks HID light in my -4 when I bought it. I then replaced the HID with 1 FlyLED Combo Leading Edge Landing/Taxi Light.

https://flyleds.com/products/#!/Combo-Leading-Edge-Landing-Taxi-light/p/109859298/category=0

Amazing difference in being able to see at night. Couldn't be happier with the light. Only problem was I could still only see on the left side of my airplane while taxiing. ZERO light on the right side. I'm a freight dawg by trade, I fly at night quite often and I'm fine with night ops, if I can see... So I added a second Duckworks kit to my right wing. Now it's daylight in front of me everywhere I taxi. BONUS: I installed the FlyLED WigWag module and it get to do cool flashy light things for aircraft recognition.

It's a bit nerve wracking for sure to cut a new hole in a perfectly good wing leading edge but it was worth it, 100%. I don't see how even a perfectly aimed, single landing light would compare. Even at that, the aiming must be for either close up in front of your nose for taxi or further down range for and effective landing light. I don't have to compromise on either with two lights.

Just my 2 cents.
 
I had one Duckworks HID light in my -4 when I bought it. I then replaced the HID with 1 FlyLED Combo Leading Edge Landing/Taxi Light.

https://flyleds.com/products/#!/Combo-Leading-Edge-Landing-Taxi-light/p/109859298/category=0

Amazing difference in being able to see at night. Couldn't be happier with the light. Only problem was I could still only see on the left side of my airplane while taxiing. ZERO light on the right side. I'm a freight dawg by trade, I fly at night quite often and I'm fine with night ops, if I can see... So I added a second Duckworks kit to my right wing. Now it's daylight in front of me everywhere I taxi. BONUS: I installed the FlyLED WigWag module and it get to do cool flashy light things for aircraft recognition.

It's a bit nerve wracking for sure to cut a new hole in a perfectly good wing leading edge but it was worth it, 100%. I don't see how even a perfectly aimed, single landing light would compare. Even at that, the aiming must be for either close up in front of your nose for taxi or further down range for and effective landing light. I don't have to compromise on either with two lights.

Just my 2 cents.

How long did it take you to install the second bracket and wire everything up?
 
I had an RV-3B with pristine paint job that I successfully added the Duckworks leading edge bracket and lens assembly with a Baja Designs combo taxi/landing light. Since I only put one light in one wing I chose the Baja unit with two LED elements clear for landing, two with vertical fresnel dispersion for taxiing on the ground.

Here is a photo of the Duckworks metal bracket with the Baja Designs landing light assembly as described. The square adapter was made by a fellow RAF'r to specifically fit Baja units to the Duckworks bracket. After dealing with FlyLEDs and seeing their stuff I might would have gone that way instead as the Baja is heavy duty and well, very heavy:

uCu6XcJ.png



When it came time to cut out the LE for the lens I was very nervous about ruining the paint. As a result I ended up installing the skin fasteners opposite positions than the Duckworks instructions. In other words I put the rivets on the bottom edge of the lens cut out and the screws on the top edge. I did not plan on any touch-up paint work so that was the primary reason for putting the screws on top. That would help keep any unwanted marks or paint damage created by the dimple dies and rivet squeeze on the bottom of the wing where they were less noticeable. Also, any damage on top created by the dimples for the screws would be hidden under the screws. In the end my concerns about paint damage were not as big a deal as I imagined and the final product looked great. The retrofit looks original.

More specific details on the cut-out process. What I did was lay out the cut out by center-punching the center of the radius of each the 4 corners of the cut out. I facilitated this by re-drawing the Duckworks template in CAD and printing it out on vellum paper with the corner radius centers marked with bullseye crosses.

w0xwg2N.jpg



I decided that rather than marking the cut-out with ink and cutting to the line to I would actually score the paint with a sharp scribe so the work done on the removed piece wouldn't cause any peeling or marring of the remaining edges of the cut out. This first step was effectively cutting the paint surface to the final line prior to any other action. I started by using a scribing compass to score the paint in a radius arc at each corner using the center punch marks mention above. Then I completed marking the sides of the cut-out by laying a flexible ruler making straight tangent lines between the 4 corner arcs both vertically around the leading edge and horizontally top an bottom. So this line scored into the paint was the edge of the final cut out.

I didn't trust myself to do the actual cutting so enlisted the help of a great friend, master craftsman and fellow RV builder/owner Dennis Flosi to do the actual deed. He is also a veterinarian and surgeon so he has a steady hand. He is know in our area as the "Fastest Nut Cutter in the West".

I applied green painters tape on the outside periphery of the score lines to protect the adjacent paint. Dennis then cut just inside the score line with a die grinder/cut off wheel (Dremel would work too). Then he finished by delicately filing up to the score line with mill files, sand paper and whatever else he deemed appropriate. I kept busy doing other things and tried not to bother Dennis while he was working but I felt like an expectant father in a hospital waiting room.

The final cut out was beyond my expectations and looked like it had been done during the original wing construction with absolutely no paint damage or marking. I was elated. The only slight hint that might be noticed by an extreme close up inspection was the edge of the cut out is not painted. But it is practically unnoticeable.

The dimples for the bottom rivets and top screws came out great, which I attribute using rivet tape prior to dimpling and also the original polyurethane paint which has some stretch. I wish I had a close up photo of the final product but didn't take any. And I sold the bird earlier this year so I don't have easy access. But here is a nice picture on the ramp showing the new landing light:

hrm6O6q.jpg


Jim
 
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How long did it take you to install the second bracket and wire everything up?

It could be done in a day if you have building experience and all the right tools. I have a pretty decent shop of tools but I had to source some Rivnuts to hold the bracket to the ribs... I did it in two days.

I also had wires already in the wing. If you have to run wires, there's a could different ways but sometimes requires removing the fuel tanks to "do it right". That could add a day or two to the project.

That's a real subjective question. Are you working 12 hour days in a comfortable shop or 2-3 hours a day in a 35-40*F hangar like I have in Michigan Winters? haha
 
A follow up question. My plane has a vinyl pinstripe along the most outboard section of the wing. Does anyone have experience cutting that cleanly? Would it just be a matter of scoring it with a knife first? I don’t want it to tear along the edge when the bay is cut.

The next bay inboard would be easier but I understand there are structural considerations with that.
 
A follow up question. My plane has a vinyl pinstripe along the most outboard section of the wing. Does anyone have experience cutting that cleanly? Would it just be a matter of scoring it with a knife first? I don’t want it to tear along the edge when the bay is cut.

The next bay inboard would be easier but I understand there are structural considerations with that.

I would cut the vinyl with a knife to avoid tearing. It is important that once the cut is made, that the vinyl edge is secured. A small piece of clear tape that wraps over the edge and secures underneath. You can't leave a vinyl tape edge exposed to 200 MPH air stream, at least not a small pinstripe type piece.

Larry
 
I ended up purchasing two Flyleds combo lights and a wigwag switch.

I was thinking 16 or 14 gauge wire and a 10 amp breaker for both lights. With the 8 amp draw should I go to a larger breaker?

With the wire runs in a finished wing, what's the best way to do that? I know if doing a run during a build holes can be drilled in the ribs and grommets installed; that seems easier said than done with the wing closed.
 
Thanks for buying our lights Daniel! You will be impressed with the results.

If you're pulling new wires 18AWG will be fine for the Combo light. You can also pull another 20AWG wire through for the tilting spotlight so that they can be operated separately as taxi lights, or just wire them all together.
Note that the light connectors take a maximum 18AWG wire size, so if you have larger wire on hand you'll need to reduce its size just near the light.
A 10 amp breaker will be perfect.


 
What I did

When I made my cut-outs, I'm not sure Duckworks or other options were around...my cut-outs are huge in comparison, and I was copying the installation a couple other locals had used. I fabricated my own lenses, and built all the internal bracketry. I have simple halogen driving lights in mine, one aligned as "Taxi" and one as "Landing". They work OK, but I plan to do an LED upgrade one day. Mine are in the outboard bay, as its simple to get to with the wingtip removed , although I can also access by removing the lens.
 

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one each way

Good point, the main advocate for just one flies a 6 with the third wheel installed backwards.

Ideally I’d like both effective landing and taxi lights. I see the flyled combo light seems pretty popular for achieving that in a taildragger.

00Dan,
I have a split rocker switch for taxi and one for landing.
The taxi light is aimed downward about 10-15' forward of the nose.
The landing light is aimed to light up the approach rwy numbers at night.
Different angle.

Daddyman
 
Thanks for buying our lights Daniel! You will be impressed with the results.

If you're pulling new wires 18AWG will be fine for the Combo light. You can also pull another 20AWG wire through for the tilting spotlight so that they can be operated separately as taxi lights, or just wire them all together.
Note that the light connectors take a maximum 18AWG wire size, so if you have larger wire on hand you'll need to reduce its size just near the light.
A 10 amp breaker will be perfect.



Paul,

Do you recommend shielded wire for these?
 
Light up my life

I’m exploring options for retrofitting a landing light on a flying -4. From what I’ve seen the options are basically either leading edge or wingtip. With wingtips already finished that pushes me towards leading edge (as I see it).
Thoughts?
Any other considerations? I haven’t purchased any parts yet. I’m not a builder but I aim to do some of the work myself (with appropriate tech help).
Dan,
Being a Jurassic RV4 builder, landing light options 25 yrs ago were limited and many builders opted to omit them altogether. I opted to cut the hole, fabricate a .020 cover plate and wait.
I've seen numerous post-completion installations over the years and a myriad of solutions not requiring cutting the leading edge.
To include:
Cessna 140 retractable Grimes lights, removable temporary leg fairing lights, Cowling retractable light and what I did, a Bob Olds automotive headlight kit. Bob's kit predated Duck Works but a very similar installation. My current RV6X has a Bob Olds kit (RV4 wing) with a automotive headlight aimed slightly low. I can select low or high beam (taxi/land) which works very well for a low cost.

If it were me, I would avoid cutting a hole in my wing and either go with wingtip lights or my own innovation. :)

V/R
Smokey
 
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Running wires?

I have the light holes in the outer bay of each wing cut now, and I also have my fuel tanks removed. I’m now trying to figure out how to best run the wires.

With the limited access since my tips are riveted my thought was to perhaps route in the gap behind the fuel tank along the spar then somehow through the nose rib out to the tip.

What have others done to run wire in a closed wing?
 
On a friends airplane, a 10' piece of PEX (we chose white) was snaked through the ribs (took a while) and created a nice conduit for the new wires. Then we just made sure the PEX was secured at both ends so it wouldn't slide around in the wing. Been holding up well for a few years now.
 
On a friends airplane, a 10' piece of PEX (we chose white) was snaked through the ribs (took a while) and created a nice conduit for the new wires. Then we just made sure the PEX was secured at both ends so it wouldn't slide around in the wing. Been holding up well for a few years now.

I presume the purpose of the tube is more to prevent the wires chafing against things in the wing than anything else. By only securing it at the two ends is it generally accepted something such the pipe or tubing can't harm anything by being loose in the ribs? Not having to use any intermediate supports would certainly make things easier.
 
On a friends airplane, a 10' piece of PEX (we chose white) was snaked through the ribs (took a while) and created a nice conduit for the new wires. Then we just made sure the PEX was secured at both ends so it wouldn't slide around in the wing. Been holding up well for a few years now.

Another question: Did you go behind the fuel tank or back by the aileron push tube?
 
We did it behind the spar, through the lightening holes in the ribs so there was no way it could touch the aileron pushrod and bellcrank. We had the wingtips off though so we could then run the wires around the end of the spar to the front, that doesn't sound like an option for you.

My thought with you running the PEX on the front side of the spar, you'll have a much easier time pushing wiring through from the fuel tank until it pops out at your wing light. Once the PEX is in place, zero chance of frustration pushing the wires through all the nose ribs.
 
Aluminum tubing

I used thin wall aluminum tubing behind the tank. I supported it with Adel clamps and flared the ends. Besides the wires to the lights, I pulled a wax thread to use in the event I need to pull additional wiring.
 
Thanks all for the advice. I ended up drilling a hole in the fuselage next to the fuel sender wire and another hole in the rib opposite it. I installed grommets and ran some 1/4" PEX tube through both grommets then shot it through the lightening holes in the ribs until at the outboard bay, where I ran a zip tie through a tool hole and secured the end of the tube.

Hopefully the three points of support will be sufficient. I think the PEX will be flexible enough to snug behind the tank when it is reinstalled. If not I'll reassess when that time comes.
 
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