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Egress in the RV7A in an inflight emergency

Dandlac58

Well Known Member
Hi Everyone,

You are having an emergency, such that you have determined your only option is to bail out of the airplane to save yourself.

I have read other posts which say you wont be able to open the canopy (slider) in the event you need to egress.

Is anyone aware of research done which indicates what your real options are in the event you need an emergency egress? Also, what about emergency parachutes?

I thank everyone in advance for their thoughts.

Paid in 2022... because you all are worth it!

Dan
 
  1. Ball detent pins in place of the roller weldment-to-frame bolts, with lanyards.
  2. Mini-Softie chute packed diaper-down for lumbar support (remove standard seatback cushion)

Egress = pull pins (FIRST!), unlatch and pull back canopy (hopefully!) enough to clear fairing lip, watch canopy fly away, headsets off, seatbelt release, JUMP!

Some remove the pins before takeoff, I don't (but you'd better remember to pull the pins first, or they'll bind up and then you are really stuck).

That's the plan and setup. Not tested, but it's better than no plan.

yes, fully sliding the canopy open will not work at any speed higher than stall or so. The lifting force binds the rollers. Ask anyone who has forgotten to latch the canopy if they were able to slide it shut after takeoff. I, of course, have never done that....
 
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  1. Ball detent pins in place of the roller weldment-to-frame bolts, with lanyards.
  2. Mini-Softie chute packed diaper-down for lumbar support (remove standard seatback cushion)

Egress = pull pins, unlatch and pull back canopy (hopefully!) enough to clear fairing lip, watch canopy fly away, headsets off, seatbelt release, JUMP!

Some remove the pins before takeoff, I don't.

That's the plan and setup. Not tested, but it's better than no plan.

yes, fully sliding the canopy open will not work at any speed higher than stall or so. The lifting force binds the rollers. Ask anyone who has forgotten to latch the canopy if they were able to slide it shut after takeoff. I, of course, have never done that....
HI Mike,

Thanks for the thoughts. It sounds viable. Do you have any photos of the ball detent pin setup you suggest?

Ok on the parachute. Thx.

I wonder if you could build a flap which would spring up in the event you open the latch, and the flap would create enough pressure to overcome the aerodynamic pressure which apparently works to keep the canopy closed at most speeds. PS... nice to know that you have "never" forgotten to shut the latch either!

Now, is it better to go inverted and fall out - I know going inverted is probably not something most of us do but it seems jumping out of an RV7A in normal flight is going to be pretty **** difficult with a possibility of also slamming into the rudder or hori-stabilizer?
 
Now, is it better to go inverted and fall out - I know going inverted is probably not something most of us do but it seems jumping out of an RV7A in normal flight is going to be pretty **** difficult with a possibility of also slamming into the rudder or hori-stabilizer?

The tail is still there even if you are inverted :)

So, let me understand the thinking here -- you've encountered a situation where you need to leave the aircraft, yet you are going to have enough control to roll inverted, hold it, and then fall gracefully away from the aircraft? Why not just fly the airplane to the scene of the crash?
 
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Bailing out means the airplane is not even serviceable as a glider anymore - which means pretty much that it's either on fire, or completely out of control (loss of control surfaces or inflight breakup). Either way you are better off getting out ANY way you can, and quite possibly have no control (or time) to orient the aircraft in any particular way.

My 2 cents - if I have enough control to point the aircraft where I want it in the sky, and it's not on fire, I'm landing a glider.
 
Not gonna lie, I kind of like the idea. Gliding an aircraft down can be a bad option at times. Would you rather glide or bail if you lose an engine over some seriously nasty mountains? Or at night over virtually anything other than farm lands? I try and flight plan to avoid mountain passings but if you look where I live it’s pretty much impossible at times. Just a thought.
 
The probability of getting out of a RV in a out of control flight situation is virtually zero. Most underestimate how difficult just finding a single release handle can be in that situation. If the aircraft is flyable and you still want to jump a helmet would be a great thing to be wearing in addition to the chute. The tail is going to hurt! I believe that to date there has not been a single successful bailout from any RV’s. I am aware of one person who manage to exit a RV 8 on fire however he was not wearing a chute. I don’t know if the chute would have helped at the altitude he was at or if he hit the tail.
 
BJDecker,

Well, thats not at all the thinking I had in mind. If you want to fly to the scene of the crash, by all means please do so! I'm trying not to do that.
On the other hand, the tail might still be there if you are inverted... duh... but you would be falling away instead of jumping up in to. If you are prepared, which is why you train, right, then quickly inverting, and falling out seems far easier a scenario, in two scenarios which are not all that good.
Seriously, your answer lacks seriousness... but I guess it's the thought that counts!! ;-)
 
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Bailing out means the airplane is not even serviceable as a glider anymore - which means pretty much that it's either on fire, or completely out of control (loss of control surfaces or inflight breakup). Either way you are better off getting out ANY way you can, and quite possibly have no control (or time) to orient the aircraft in any particular way.

My 2 cents - if I have enough control to point the aircraft where I want it in the sky, and it's not on fire, I'm landing a glider.
Amen, my first option would always be to land it... but the scenario is not that... it is an emergency situation which dictates leaving the airplane to save yourself.
 
Nice!

As others have, I replaced the front canopy bolts on my previous RV-8 with pip pins. These are the ones I used at the time:

i-D6Zr7b3-S.jpg


Installed:

i-WfMqxGH-L.jpg


To my knowledge, there has been one exit of a pilot from an RV-8 in-flight. Unfortunately, the pilot was not wearing a chute.


Thanks for the post and the photo! Now I see clearly how to do it. I appreciate it!
 
Don't forget that when doing aerobatics with a passenger, we are required by the FAA to wear a parachute. It would be logical to have the ability to exercise that option if it became prudent. Not saying it is even a good option but it may be the best one you have.

I had an event happen to me where I absolutely would have bailed out had I had a chute on. I got lucky and was able to get it back on the ground. Had I not flown 2 channel RC airplanes as a kid I would surely not be here to post this.

Fire, major structural failure, loss of elevator, engine failure over bad terrain or even open water are all times when I would like to have the option.

As for hitting the tail, remember...... when you bail you are going the same speed as the airplane. At least for a second or two.
 
Not gonna lie, I kind of like the idea. Gliding an aircraft down can be a bad option at times. Would you rather glide or bail if you lose an engine over some seriously nasty mountains? Or at night over virtually anything other than farm lands? I try and flight plan to avoid mountain passings but if you look where I live it’s pretty much impossible at times. Just a thought.

JCARNE,

Those are definitely two times, night and nasty terrain, which makes a bail out more likely. The idea of ever having to bail out is not something I ever hope to do... but having thought it through and prepared with some thinking, equipment and training, certainly makes it a more survivable option.

To me, it just seems like it is going to be extremely difficult to get out of the airplane flying right side up. I know in WW2, going inverted and bailing was oft used. And without a functioning ejection system, Im thinking most jet pilots today would have no option but to bail out inverted?
The more I think about it, the more going inverted seems a better option, if you have trained for it...maybe even if you haven't.
 
Assuming you have functional elevator control and a little airspeed, a solid shove forward on the stick will drop the airplane out from underneath you.
 
You're quite welcome.

One other note about helmets. Years ago Sean Tucker was practicing for Sun 'n Fun 2006 when he had an elevator disconnect. He was able to fly with elevator trim and climb to an altitude that allowed a bailout. He said that even though he had time to think through what he was going to do, when he released the canopy, it hit his helmet even though he ducked and leaned forward. He said that the hit was hard enough that he thinks that it would have disabled him had he not had the helmet. He mentions this in this video at about 3:55 (although the whole story is quite good).


Carl,
Excellent, thanks. Helmet. Yes!
Great video too. He tried to fly the airplane as long as he could and still had to bail...
Dan
 
Rob Davies bailed out of a P-51, 2011, Duxford. A Skyraider wing clipped his tail from behind. IIRC, he left at 500’, got a full chute at 200’ and got a few injuries from striking the tail. But a good ending.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oJngucEac4#at=47

Amazing video... lucky to be alive. Proving again, there are times when you are going to have to be prepared and in control of your senses to conduct a survivable bail out. One thing I learned from 34 years in the Army was you "fight as you train" and that old adage holds true here too. Obviously you dont get to execute the final act of bailing... but maybe it does make sense to go do a tandem jump...
 
How do you train for getting out of a disabled RV with a slider canopy that may or may not cooperate by leaving the airframe cleanly??

Sam,

As I think this through, I think you:
a. get the proper equipment and understand how to make it function correctly, helmet and parachute. Does autopilot still work and be viable to help you prep to exit?
b. modify your canopy as Carl and others on here mentioned (with excellent photos) here so that it is more likely to leave the airplane ahead of you leaving it.
c. Learn how to fly inverted for at least a few seconds so you have the option of bailing right side up or not. Maybe do some stationary ground work to see just how you might get from a seated position to a standing position to an exiting the a/c position?
d. Go do a tandem jump and perhaps a solo jump... Ive rappelled off a helo skid but never left a perfectly functioning airplane (Airborne!). Jump with your equipment if possible.
e. repeat.
 
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I've also considered a static line. Takes care of pulling the ripcord for you, quickly, even if you are dazed by contact with something.

I use plain ball detent pins, just yank.
 
Chute

Sean Tuckers elevator failure was caused by one sub standard rod end on the elevator controls. It had been mixed in with a bunch of the proper bearings.
It happened on takeoff. The story that I heard is that he considered landing with elevator trim but decided not too.
I know of another similar incident where the trim landing was almost successful. The airplane pitched up out of control in the flare and the pilot was able to recover, climb to altitude and bail out successfully.
There have been at least three successful landings of Beech 18's after elevator control disconnect. My boss showed me a hands off the yoke takeoff in the Twin Beech. I did that and practiced landings down to about 5 feet. I was convinced I could walk away even if I damaged the airplane.
Regarding canopies, Marta Meyer was killed when the canopy apparently hit her in the head and knocked her out.
I had an elevator control failure on final at about 75 ft. Tore up the airplane some but I was unhurt. I was just along for the ride as far as pitch control but I did keep the airplane on the runway thru several bounces until it slowed down and I steered it off in the dirt.
 
Seriously, your answer lacks seriousness... but I guess it's the thought that counts!! ;-)

No disrespect, and I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek.

I am having a hard time understanding a scenario where:

#1. I need to bail out because...#2. the aircraft is not controllable and...#3. I need to control the aircraft in order to bail out.

If I can control the aircraft and roll inverted in order bail out, I think I can certainly maneuver it to a landing (I said "scene of the crash" earlier -- that was an inside joke...sorry).

Maybe it's a fire -- as demonstrated in the RV-8 crash, opening the canopy when on fire was probably the wrong thing to do. IMHO he would have been better off manipulating the aircraft to extinguish the fire (pull into a stall and dump the fire bottle -or- turn off the fuel, ignitions, battery and dive for the deck...).

Further, the difference between falling out of an inverted aircraft and climbing out is essentially nil -- the effects of the slip stream on your body will be the same.
 
No disrespect, and I was being a bit tongue-in-cheek.

I am having a hard time understanding a scenario where:

#1. I need to bail out because...#2. the aircraft is not controllable and...#3. I need to control the aircraft in order to bail out.

If I can control the aircraft and roll inverted in order bail out, I think I can certainly maneuver it to a landing (I said "scene of the crash" earlier -- that was an inside joke...sorry).

Maybe it's a fire -- as demonstrated in the RV-8 crash, opening the canopy when on fire was probably the wrong thing to do. IMHO he would have been better off manipulating the aircraft to extinguish the fire (pull into a stall and dump the fire bottle -or- turn off the fuel, ignitions, battery and dive for the deck...).

Further, the difference between falling out of an inverted aircraft and climbing out is essentially nil -- the effects of the slip stream on your body will be the same.

One such scenario occurred back when I investigated things like this for a living. Was on scene for this one. Torque tube became dislodged from the aft thrust bearing leaving the elevator and ailerons useless. It happened during aerobatics and sadly, the pilot died. It was isolated to this particular S/N but just enough of a potential for re-occurrence that I made all the guys flying this particular airplane model aware of a way to fly the airplane and climb to a point where one could bail. We later practiced the same failure recovery on the ground. The fix was to jettison the canopy, use trim for pitch and grab the aileron with your hand for roll. Then climb high enough to bail. This particular airplane model is unique in that the aileron can be reached from the cockpit. That particular recovery technique came to me weeks after the investigation. I was unwilling to accept the fact that there was no chance for a recovery. Though not something I would want to have to do, it would work.

I'd bet a steak dinner that if enough experienced RV guys got together they could list a few failure modes that have a recovery that is not immediately obvious. To even talk about these things on the ground or here on this forum and make those decisions here has merit.
 
This particular airplane model is unique in that the aileron can be reached from the cockpit.
Now i'm curious... Rans S-10? Something mid-wing, surely?

I'd bet a steak dinner that if enough experienced RV guys got together they could list a few failure modes that have a recovery that is not immediately obvious. To even talk about these things on the ground or here on this forum and make those decisions here has merit.
A while ago the discussion about stick failure came up, because it's happened that a control stick has failed in flight. I suggested that in a side-by-side RV one could reach over and fly with the other stick, and i've even tried it. I haven't tried landing that way, but i'm fairly confident I could get it on the groud with a minimum of damage if needed. It's one reason I would avoid removing the passenger stick and stowing it somewhere... You never know when you'll need it.

The same could be done in a tandem RV, perhaps... Reaching around behind the pilot's seat to grab the passenger stick. If not enough to fly a safe landing, perhaps enough to fly to a safe bail-out altitude?
 
As for hitting the tail, remember...... when you bail you are going the same speed as the airplane. At least for a second or two.

I don't know about "for a second or two".

As soon as one "presents" their body to the relative wind they will begin to decelerate relative to the airplane. More surface area presented, more (immediate) deceleration.

Avoid the tail. That is my professional advice. It should be part of your emergency egress procedures..."How do I best leave the aircraft so I can avoid the tail". Also, rolling inverted and pushing so one can "pop out" is a fallacy in my professional opinion and instead, a great opportunity to hit the tail.

Wearing a helmet is a great idea if one can rationalize the use of it and if flying hard aerobatics, an absolute must.

Be safe out there.
 
Never Give Up

The most amazing control failure story was Bob Hoover in the F86 with experimental "fly by wire" horizontal tail. Takeoff from Los Angeles Intl, airplane pitched to vertical on takeoff, no pitch control. He got the airplane under control
and headed for Edwards. Enroute he lost control again and recovered. He said the landing at Edwards was so perfect he didn't know exactly when the wheels touched the ground.
When the airplane pitched up the people on a company frequency were screaming at him to bail out. When they checked the ejection seat at Edwards it was inoperative.
The wires for the horizontal tail were routed thru a wheel well and when the gear retracted it damaged the wires.
All this is documented in a Sport Aviation article from that era.
 
Control failure

There are two known cases of elevator control failure In Cassutt Racers. One was Tom Cassutt. Bolt came out of the elevator pushrod on a cross country. he landed the airplane by shifting his weight in the cockpit. No trim installed. No damage to airplane.
The second incident was the subject of an article in Kitplanes. Failed weld in stick/torque tube assembly. This happened somewhere in the Midddle East where a F1 race was taking place. i don't think it was during a race. The airplane is the one from Salt Lake area that Paul Dye flew for a Kitplanes article. Paul was not the pilot for the control failure. No damage to airplane.
NEVER GIVE UP.
 
Jumping out of a plane in flight

Hi,

I don't think anyone really wants to jump out of an airplane in flight unless the situation is truly demanding that option in the pilot's opinion. Speaking of opinions, I take declarations like I guarantee or there is no way as just one overexuberant person's opinion. Why? Because no one has done a test program to see what really happens when someone jumps out of an emergency RV aircraft. Until this is studied, I know, when pigs fly or something to that effect, everyone is spouting opinion, PERIOD! Von Alexander did prove you can get out of an RV-8 cockpit in flight. Unfortunately, he did not have a parachute on.

Now as for a few pointers about bailing out of an emergency aircraft, one thing is you need to bailout of the right side of the cockpit in American powered setups. Why? Because the prop wash spirals around the aircraft like a corkscrew and bailing out the right side is using that corkscrewing force to your advantage. There is an exception if you are trapped in an unrecoverable spin. Whenever you bail out of a spin you want to egress to the outside of the spin. Why? If you bail to the inside of a spin you will be very near the spin axis which translates into the spinning aircraft will be spinning around you virtually in orbit of you. That makes it a mess when your parachute canopy opens should it get caught on the spinning aircraft.

If you want to bail from inside your seated position try disconnecting your comm cords, opening the canopy, running full nose down trim and rolling inverted before you release your seatbelts.

All these techniques were taught by the US Navy flight program during the last days of prop aircraft in the Navy. I know the prop wash corkscrew effect off a 180 hp Lycoming is not going to compete with its big brother off a huge 3 bladed prop swung by a 1400-1500 horse Wright or Pratt and Whitney but I would rather have every edge in my favor if ever I needed to bail.

If you do believe in the feasibility of bailing out of an RV, plan out what you will do if ever that unfortunate day ever comes. Chair fly it in your mind and practice going through the motions multiple times and frequently to keep it fresh in your mind. You are only going to get one shot to do this right and forethought and practice will help you succeed.

Good luck to all and may you never have to execute a bailout strategy.

Bob
 
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I think Bob is the only one that mentioned running the trim forward, and I think that would be my technique. I put the quick pull pins in my canopy and in my mind, I would pull the pins, run the trim forward, release the canopy and bail. I've seen enough pitch doublets in flight test to know that a momentary hit of the stick normally brings the plane back the other way about 1 second later without any further inputs. Running the trim forward seems to be the best way to get constant pitch down, and then it doesn't really matter if you're upright or inverted.
 
<<leaving the airplane>>

I bought three parachute jumps many moons ago so that I could get a real-life feel for exiting a plane. 2000+ jumps later, I highly recommend making at least one jump to become familiar with this process.

When things go bad, all plans go to ****. It comes down to training.

my 2 cts.
PD
 
Back in Navy flight school in the 1980's, the bail out procedure for the T-34 was to stand/squat on the seat then dive for the wing, in order to avoid the tail surfaces. Presumably you would never touch the wing, because as soon as you got in the slipstream you would be blown backwards. This video shows a tumbling technique.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ODqG2MLCEQ
 
I think I read all the posts but if someone mentioned this already, my apologies.

As a former skydiver, I think I can say that most people who have never jumped out of an airplane, would need something catastrophically going wrong to motivate them to jump.
People that have not jumped before.... even at night over lousy terrain, would find it very hard to abandoned the aircraft...no matter what they thought while running through scenarios in their armchair. ;) (Sean Tucker is not most people)

So that leaves us trying to exit a RV that is:

  • On fire
  • Lost a major piece of the aircraft
  • and/or out of control

Very difficult to do without a clear plan.
 
I was gonna buy a chute for in my 8, (actually, I had had one a few years back) but here's what stopped me. (I know, I know what y'all are going to say--redo my panel) I have a Garmin 496 mounted in one of those Air Gizmo mounts. Also have a tablet mounted on a Ram Mount. Found I couldn't get my knees past those 2 items. SO--I even took out my backrest cushion, with just my back against the metal backrest. Still can't get my knees past. And I'm not tall, just 5' 10". Just sayin----practice where your knees are. Ok, refer to the I know, I know part above:D:D
 
I think Bob is the only one that mentioned running the trim forward, and I think that would be my technique. I put the quick pull pins in my canopy and in my mind, I would pull the pins, run the trim forward, release the canopy and bail. ... Running the trim forward seems to be the best way to get constant pitch down, and then it doesn't really matter if you're upright or inverted.

Okay, so with that in mind, you have the plane trimmed nose-down, roll inverted, and move to get out, and as you leave the plane, the nose-down trim swings the tail into the space you're now occupying... Why is this better than stepping over the side of the cockpit and diving into the space between the wing and the tail?

Serious question, I really don't know what would happen here. It just seems that a momentary negative-G to get you out would be better, as the plane wouldn't continue moving into a space that you're going to (briefly) occupy.
 
Okay, so with that in mind, you have the plane trimmed nose-down, roll inverted, and move to get out, and as you leave the plane, the nose-down trim swings the tail into the space you're now occupying... Why is this better than stepping over the side of the cockpit and diving into the space between the wing and the tail?

Serious question, I really don't know what would happen here. It just seems that a momentary negative-G to get you out would be better, as the plane wouldn't continue moving into a space that you're going to (briefly) occupy.

Personally, I wouldn't roll inverted, I would just trim nose down and leave the plane. If you trim for -1g and let go of the stick, it will stabilize at a negative AoA, likely before you're able to release your belt and get out. This means the tail isn't swinging anywhere, you're in a stabilized flight condition. I realize that the tail will move "up" in relation to the cockpit while it settles in its new stabilized AoA, but for every inch the tail moves up, the AoA decreases and the aircraft as a whole will be accelerated away from things not attached to it. Without doing the CFD I can't say for sure how it would react, but personal belief is that the -Nz would be a much greater influence on distance between you and the tail than the momentary pitch rate would be. Could be wrong though.
 
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