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New type fire extinguisher?

I looked at their FAQ section, which pointed me here: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/3...tOperationDescription.pdf?9543567154874779486

If you used one of these around aluminum, you'd probably need to do a very thorough cleaning to neutralize and remove all of the potassium hydroxide (which is the byproduct of the action of the extinguisher). It is highly corrosive to aluminum.

So, it might be of use in flight, but I'd not want to use it for incidental fires on the ground--it would probably end in a total loss of the airframe.
 
I just watched the video and it is impressive. Im not sure you could see out of the canopy because it would fill up but it looks like it could be pretty good on a fire. If I have a fire in flight I do not care about the airframe. Agree an on ground fire you should pick a different extinguisher but I would use anything I had to get on the ground. Im going to order one now.
 
I just watched the video and it is impressive. Im not sure you could see out of the canopy because it would fill up but it looks like it could be pretty good on a fire. If I have a fire in flight I do not care about the airframe. Agree an on ground fire you should pick a different extinguisher but I would use anything I had to get on the ground. Im going to order one now.

I have 6. Each vehicle, kitchen, shop, and airplane!
 
Cockpit IMC

Seeing a demo of that extinguisher in our somewhat enclosed environment would help with the decision making. Looks like you buy a solid 60 seconds of some pretty solid discharge.

Anyone have input on how quickly the air exchange from the vents would allow one to see the instruments or even outside?

I was once IMC in the cockpit of a T-2 with an air conditioning failure, and for a brief and scary period of time couldn't effectively see anything.
 
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Elements

These are not new to me. I have 9 of them. Two hangar, one each plane, race cars, kitchen shop. and a couple under my desk.
You have to recharge anything else if you can find anybody to do it.
They put out fires.
The powder settles to the bottom of the old style ABC's, and needs to be knocked loose from time to time. And don't get me started on aluminum corrosion and ruined electrical parts with those. Just kiss the plane good by.
I've been in fires and used the old ABC. They don't last very long if they work
How many people bother to get theirs serviced?
NONE probably. Or I should say very few.
Take a day and follow a service tech around that works on fire extinguishers.
It will be a real eye opener.
I had a friend that did exactly that. He passed away.
NO servicing of an Element and they last a long time.
Yes I still have a couple red ones sitting here and there but will more than likely use my Element first.
My three cents worth. Art
 
After watching there videos I got one for the boat specifically because it would be less corrosive than the ABC type “or so the advertisement states”. If any chemists care to chime in on just how corrosive the element extinguisher could be to aluminum I know I would be interested. Otherwise, will likely stick with the really expensive but proven halon extinguishers for the cockpit.
 
After watching there videos I got one for the boat specifically because it would be less corrosive than the ABC type “or so the advertisement states”. If any chemists care to chime in on just how corrosive the element extinguisher could be to aluminum I know I would be interested. Otherwise, will likely stick with the really expensive but proven halon extinguishers for the cockpit.

I am a chemical engineer by training and in my day job. I have experienced directly the effects of aluminum corrosion by KOH (potassium hydroxide) and NaOH (sodium hydroxide, or lye). Take it from me, it is not something you want around your airplane.

Or don't take it from me, have a look here: https://www.calpaclab.com/aluminum-chemical-compatibility-chart/

KOH is listed as "D-Severe Effect."

It is also pretty hygroscopic, so it will pick up moisture readily from the atmosphere, and that will further exacerbate the corrosion.

All that to say, if it puts out an emergency fire in flight and lets you get on the ground, that's great. But be prepared for an incredible clean-up and probably loss of the airframe to corrosion. As I said before, I wouldn't use it as a day-to-day extinguisher for non-emergency fires on the ground.
 
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So here’s the thing….once you light it off, its going to keep putting out fog until it is finished - even if you put the fire out right away. It’ll just keep fogging up the cockpit, and there’s nothing you can do about it. And the cockpit is a very enclosed space - unlike the back yard where the video was being shot.

In flight, in the cockpit, your fire extinguisher is primarily to put out electrical fires. On the ground, outside the airplane, you are more likely to be working on a fuel fire under the cowling. Fore the cockpit case, nothing I have ever used is efficient and quick as Halon - and you can use it in short bursts, stopping when the fire is out.

On the ground, if you have a fuel fed fire, you need a large volume of extinguishing agent that will shoot in through a cowl opening and then flood the space - Halon, Dry Chem (call your insurance agent - they own the airplane now), CO2 - they are all proven to work.

Yup - this option is a lot cheaper than a Halon extinguisher, but I just filled up my RV-8 after a two hour trip and spent over $100 on Avgas….so how exorbitant is that extinguisher in “airplane money”…really? And Halon extinguishers are easily maintained and filled by a competent shop - completely different than the average Dry Chem you will find everywhere.

I spent a career operating manned spacecraft, and Halon was the only thing we used because, well - you can’t open a window. And I spent 25 years as a volunteer firefighter and firefighting instructor. I’ve discharged countless fire extinguishers of all types. For my airplanes, Halon is the only thing I carry in the cockpit - it works, it won’t kill you, and it won’t blind you.

Paul
 
Too bad.

Too bad it is so corrosive. Having an agent that attacks the center of the fire triangle like Halon did that and isn't an OZone depleter would be fantastic.

Anyone else find it ironic that the extinguishant appears to be a product of combustion? New meaning to "fighting fire with fire"? Obviously I'm easily amused.
 
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It seems like a great idea. Smaller, lighter, longer firing than a regular extinguisher.

Beyond the corrosion issue, which is a biggie, my concern would be the ability to stop and start. You light the thing and it is going. No way to stop it. A trigger actuated extinguisher, while it runs less long, has the ability to pulse the shot. Hit one spot. Stop. Hit another spot. In some situtations, that may be better than a single use but longer duration device.

I'd also love to hear how it works in a "stress" situation. Doing it for the camera under a controlled environment is one thing. Doing it when your life depends on it is another thing.

Something catches on fire - I grab the device with one hand, remove the cap with a second hand, while still steering the plane / boat / car at speed with my third hand? And what if I drop that cap in the cockpit? Can I still fire it without the striker? Typical extinguishers loaded with CO2, dry chem, Halon, etc can be aimed and operated with a single hand while still remaining in control of the vehicle at all times.
 
One more concern - how do you train someone unfamiliar with the device in an emergency?

You are flying. Emergency starts. Your passenger who is joining you for the first time today has to figure out what it is and how it is used in the emergency. A "regular" extinguisher requires no explanation. Everyone knows what it is and how it works. When time is critical, does familiarity with the device matter?
 
On a side note...this is a product I have used for several years and have tested it myself.
I am not an engineer, nor a scientist of any measure, just a regular Joe.

https://banfire.net/

I use it in my job and it works very well for fabrics. I have only used it for fabrics and I swear by it.

See my avatar.
Just an aside...
 
This is a great discussion. I’m NOT a chemist or material guy but the website states the product is Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) and from the chart given by 1001001, potassium nitrate has an aluminum compatibility listed as; “class B=Good, Minor Effect, slight corrosion or discoloration”. This seems not too bad, so I bought the product and will put it in the plane. In the end all I really care about is not dying. If the plane is reusable, great, if not, that’s not great but it is okay. Maybe I’ll buy another for the hangar.
 
Too bad it is so corrosive. Having an agent that attacks the center of the fire triangle like Halon did that and isn't an OZone depleter would be fantastic.

Anyone else find it ironic that the extinguishant appears to be a product of combustion? New meaning to "fighting fire with fire"? Obviously I'm easily amused.

The thing that made my eyes open wide was that the extinguishing agent is "potassium radicals" that seek out the oxygen present in the area to quench the fire. Potassium metal by itself reacts strongly with oxygen, and especially strongly with water--then take that, make it into an extremely fine mist, and make it even more reactive by stripping an electron off of it (chemical definition of "radical"), and then let it loose in air that I might be breathing into my moist mucous membranes--seems like a "yikes!" to me in close quarters.
 
This is a great discussion. I’m NOT a chemist or material guy but the website states the product is Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) and from the chart given by 1001001, potassium nitrate has an aluminum compatibility listed as; “class B=Good, Minor Effect, slight corrosion or discoloration”. This seems not too bad, so I bought the product and will put it in the plane. In the end all I really care about is not dying. If the plane is reusable, great, if not, that’s not great but it is okay. Maybe I’ll buy another for the hangar.

PLEASE have a close look at their document on how the extinguisher works.

The inert material in the unactivated unit is indeed potassium nitrate, along with an oxidizer and a plasticizer. Once you activate the extinguisher, the potassium nitrate decomposes into potassium (K) metal radicals, nitrogen, and water vapor.
When it reacts
(inside the body of the extinguisher) it breaks down and the aerosol that is formed is
made up primarily of free radicals of Potassium K+, of Nitrogen N (an inert gas), and
water vapor.

When the potassium metal interacts with the gaseous environment around the fire, it converts to potassium hydroxide (KOH) (stripping the oxygen out of the air, preventing its use in sustaining combustion), potassium oxide (KO), and potassium hydride (KH), which then are deposited all around.

Those products of reaction will be spread all over the inside of the airplane in an extremely fine powder. The KOH is immediately corrosive to aluminum. The KH will react with atmospheric moisture to form more KOH. I don't know offhand whether KH will react directly with aluminum, but even if it doesn't, it will provide a source of more corrosive KOH.
 
Carefully worded

This is a great discussion. I’m NOT a chemist or material guy but the website states the product is Potassium Nitrate (KNO3) and from the chart given by 1001001, potassium nitrate has an aluminum compatibility listed as; “class B=Good, Minor Effect, slight corrosion or discoloration”. This seems not too bad, so I bought the product and will put it in the plane. In the end all I really care about is not dying. If the plane is reusable, great, if not, that’s not great but it is okay. Maybe I’ll buy another for the hangar.

I think 1001001 is right and his background certainly helps support that conclusion.

The marketing literature is slick, as most tends to be. The verbiage used to describe the product components and initial products/byproducts (after activation, before further reaction with the combustion reactants) are indeed pretty unremarkable. After the reaction as an extinguishant, the products are aren't named specifically; however, "stage 3" in the graphic "K radicals attach themselves to....." Well it's going to oxidize in some form. The graphic shows K in happy proximity to H and O and all is OK.


It's a fairly unique device and would be great in the right application. It's up to the owner/PIC to determine whether aviation is the right application for them; maybe a true "last chance" device should circumstances dictate. Not for me to decide for anyone else. If there are consequences the OEM is cleverly glossing over, it's nice to have contributors skilled in the various arts on this forum to point things out. I looked at the literature again after reading 1001001's comment. I believe I understand it the way he intended. He'll hopefully let me know if I don't.

Great, interesting thread though.

Edit = 1001001 already beat me to the comment. I'll say again; slick marketing.
 
So here’s the thing….once you light it off, its going to keep putting out fog until it is finished - even if you put the fire out right away. It’ll just keep fogging up the cockpit, and there’s nothing you can do about it. And the cockpit is a very enclosed space - unlike the back yard where the video was being shot.

In flight, in the cockpit, your fire extinguisher is primarily to put out electrical fires. On the ground, outside the airplane, you are more likely to be working on a fuel fire under the cowling. Fore the cockpit case, nothing I have ever used is efficient and quick as Halon - and you can use it in short bursts, stopping when the fire is out.

On the ground, if you have a fuel fed fire, you need a large volume of extinguishing agent that will shoot in through a cowl opening and then flood the space - Halon, Dry Chem (call your insurance agent - they own the airplane now), CO2 - they are all proven to work.

Yup - this option is a lot cheaper than a Halon extinguisher, but I just filled up my RV-8 after a two hour trip and spent over $100 on Avgas….so how exorbitant is that extinguisher in “airplane money”…really? And Halon extinguishers are easily maintained and filled by a competent shop - completely different than the average Dry Chem you will find everywhere.

I spent a career operating manned spacecraft, and Halon was the only thing we used because, well - you can’t open a window. And I spent 25 years as a volunteer firefighter and firefighting instructor. I’ve discharged countless fire extinguishers of all types. For my airplanes, Halon is the only thing I carry in the cockpit - it works, it won’t kill you, and it won’t blind you.

Paul

These were mostly of my thoughts as well.
 
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