What's new
Van's Air Force

Don't miss anything! Register now for full access to the definitive RV support community.

Oshkosh mishap

Status
Not open for further replies.

Tankerpilot75

Well Known Member
On Sunday the 24th after holding for two and ahalf hours I was cleared to land on Rwy 27 - green dot. As I approached the green dot tower said: “ extend, extend.” I extended past the green dot then was told “land immediately and get on the brakes hard.” I immediately slammed on the runway, bounced a little and quickly got control of the aircraft. As I was slowing down tower said to “exit the runway immediately .” I asked: “which way - left or right” and the response I got was “it doesn’t matter just exit the runway.” I chose right - should have chosen left!

After clearing the runway onto the grass I picked up what appeared to be a marshaller who passed me off to another person with wands who directed me forward across the grass. It was soft grass from the previous night’s rain so I carried a little more speed than normal. Unfortunately there was a one foot unmarked concrete square with a steel topin the grass which I hit hard with the nose wheel. The aircraft pitched forward with the nose pointed down and the propeller digging an 8” to 10” trench in the grass. I pulled back my mixture, killed the engine and the airplane settled back to a normal three point stance. I sat there while people immediately drove up and gathered my composure.

The EAA representative said, “I’ve been doing this for 25 years and never seen that concrete square you found with your RV!” Just my luck!

Long story shortened, Myers Aviation towed my aircraft to their facility and my damage estimate is over $46K. Ouch! New CS Prop - installed $17.5+K, Engine removal, tear down inspection and governor overhaul $19.2K, repair/replace damage nose gear $3+K, repaint damage areas $1.4K, and reinstall engine another $3.6K.

Thank goodness for Global Aerospace Insurance through AOPA! Both their adjuster and Myers have been super to work with. My biggest headache so far is the loss of the aircraft for 4 to 5 months.

In a way this could be a blessing. I’m thinking about getting Popular Grove (tear down and inspection shop) to replace my Slick Mags with dual E-Mags since the cost difference to me will be reasonable and I’m also going to have them check my valve guides since the engine has over 500 hours since new and it’s relatively cheap to do it now during a tear down inspection.

I could really be upset about this but frankly everyone has been so great to deal with that it’s hard to be angry. Sometimes poop happens and you just have to deal with it.

I will say one thing, this will be the last time I try to fly into AirVenture on the weekend before the show. Last year was a similar zoo experience with having to re-enter the Endeavor Bridge point multiple times south of Portage before being cleared down track and this year involved 2.5 hours holding with AirVenture not talking to aircraft outside Endevor nor giving any guidance, aircraft not flying a minimum of 90 KIAS when past Endevor Bridge, aircraft cutting in front of you, and folks cluttering up the radio frequency.

From now on (if I go again) it will be arrive NLT the Friday before or fly into Appleton or Fond du Lac. The weekend arrival to OSH is getting just too dangerous!
 
Really sorry to hear that Jim. I was sent to 27 too (Tuesday) and exited on the left. But really wondered what lay in wait in that grass. I'll bet the mowers know where the "stuff" is located.

On the good side Poplar Grove guys are excellent to work with. We are an hour SE and all the club and FBO overhauls go to them. Never a problem. (yet)


Mike, as a minimum, EAA grounds it would seem should review all the areas where planes are directed to ensure there aren't more like this and holes too.

Was there an official report with EAA?
 
Last edited:
And why the frenetic changes from ATC in the first place?

Sounds like you did everything you could have other than a go-around, and I'm sure the pressure NOT to do that was enormous. Glad you're okay, the plane can be fixed.
 
Your insurance may seek recovery through subrogation against the airport.

It's clear it was contemplated that aircraft would be taxiing across the area, the airport should have marked "exit lanes" or marked the obstacle.

FWIW
 
And why the frenetic changes from ATC in the first place?

Similar experience landing on 27 on Sunday. First controller said land on the numbers. Second controller (different gender so no mistake) sounded pissed I didn’t land past the green dot…as I was landing on the numbers. Same frantic call to exit immediately. Lesson learned for next year.
 
I wonder if the person (S) directing you have any liability in this?
That’s a dangerous road to go down if you want Oshkosh to continue to exist.

There were a large number of these new concrete covers installed all over the field this year and the parking crews were not warned of them in advance. We did our best to mark them and steer planes clear, but it is a big airport.
 
That’s a dangerous road to go down if you want Oshkosh to continue to exist.

There were a large number of these new concrete covers installed all over the field this year and the parking crews were not warned of them in advance. We did our best to mark them and steer planes clear, but it is a big airport.

The number ONE issue with this event is to process thousands of aircraft in a safe manner..... EAA FAILED on providing a safe procedure.

I have always been amazed at how well Oshkosh week functions and I expect this issue to be corrected. Because the next time this happens, there will be no excuses.

That runway is wide enough for a landing aircraft to pass (40 foot wing spans) a landed aircraft, if needed..... or just go around, but don't send the landed aircraft off into the weeds that have not been proven clear of obstacles.
 
Nobody knew where I should go

I had my HBP clearly marked (My wife was holding it up blocking my vision most of the time, but I can't say anything of course) And nobody knew which way I should proceed. (I arrived the Friday before Air Venture started so seems some had not been trained) This and the 2,300 ft. conga line (Cessna 172's - 180's) dropping down in front of me might convince me not to fly into AV again. It's a great event but flying in might not be an option in the future.
 
The number ONE issue with this event is to process thousands of aircraft in a safe manner..... EAA FAILED on providing a safe procedure.
Mike’s question was not about EAA’s liability, it was about the individual(s) volunteer flagmen and their liability. That’s the part I find dangerous.

For the record EAA has zero to do with directing airplanes on to and off of runways. That is 100% the FAA controllers.

Since this thread is rubbing up against Doug’s rules already I’ll refrain from further comment.
 
Grounds Maintenance?

I landed on 27 on Friday. On the green dot and taxied into the grass on the left, as directed by ATC. A minute or so later a plane landed on 27 and ATC directed them to exit to the left into the grass. He must have hesitated, because I hear ATC advising “the grass has been ROLLED so it’s smooth to taxi” or words to that effect. Meanwhile I’m bobbing and bouncing along taxiing in the grass thinking, this is ROLLED??? I SERIOUSLY doubt it. EAA should have the grounds keepers from TripleTree come to OSH and give them some instruction.
 
Mike’s question was not about EAA’s liability, it was about the individual(s) volunteer flagmen and their liability. That’s the part I find dangerous.

For the record EAA has zero to do with directing airplanes on to and off of runways. That is 100% the FAA controllers.

No, my question was not aimed at anyone in particular.

Jeff, I understand your concern, but someone was bound to raise the question and I wanted to do so in as non-judgemental or threatening a manner as possible, so that rational discussion would ensue.

When I have landed at OSH in the past, there were taxi lanes marked out with orange cones.
 
Just reading these posts, I’d make one comment that is not in any way intended to criticize the OP, but something that those who haven’t been in to OSH a bunch of times might not know. Don’t worry about going around - they don’t send you back to Ripon or Endeavour - they just slot you back into the downwind, so the go-around costs you a couple of minutes, and that’s all. If you don’t like what’s going on, you’re PIC - go around, and try again!
 
Hey folks, my purpose for writing about this incident is NOT to point fingers per say at the tower, controllers, marshallers or site preparation team for aircraft arriving at AirVenture. As I said, “sometimes poop happens” but it does point out that the VFR arrival is becoming extremely dense with aircraft on the weekend before AirVenture. The last two year pattern of the controllers to create “non published entry points (enter 15 miles south of Portage, follow the highway to Endevor Bridge with you having quickly to identify Portage) and then when they shut down the runway not providing guidance to aircraft outside of Endevor Bridge and further telling folks to hold (where - not defined if your outside Endevor) is getting dangerous!

My ads-b showed a whole lot more traffic than I saw visually and some of the traffic I saw visually was sometimes headed my way, opposite direction, a few passed in front of me, etc. The taxi problem I had wouldn’t have happened if I had turned left instead of right off the runway. I blame task saturation for someone saying “it doesn’t matter” when I asked left or right.

Controllers working the arrival are tasked saturated. If you’re not on your A game and following the published procedures everything backs up and everybody suffers. The last two years have been ugly trying to get there on Sunday afternoon. For me, it’s no longer worth the risk.

PS: I agree with Paul, there’s wisdom in going around and maybe I should have. But my problem occurred after landing. My stress level was already elevated via the arrival goat rope. And as I said, everyone at OSH was extremely helpful with Global Aerospace and Myers Aviation definitely first class!
 
Last edited:
Feeling for you Jim, and happy about the outcome :)

The best advice I was given whilst camping at Johnson Creek the week before, was to get to OSH no later Thursday nite, no later than 7:30…

The following ain’t a rant, just what happened on what was supposed to be a relaxed arrival…

I nicely sat in my position following a hi wing, bobbling thru the sky at 90kts, on Thursday around 3:30. Surprised at the number of people either not being aware that the notice was in force, not knowing it’s contents, or bitching at each other about either :D
My ADSB reported a fast approaching target at my 6. The speed at which it was approaching me made me do a sharp S turn at wich point I spotted a yellow low wing RV type attacker, well too close for comfort, who most probably was staring at the same ship I was following for 10 miles… guess that S turn cleared the situation since he dropped back to the 1/2 separation.
Next problem was runway assignment… stiff 270/15+. High wing in front gets 27, the „attacker“ gets 27. Guess what, the red RV (taildragger) gets 36L. Asked for 27, firm reply to use 36L. Half a minute later I make the same request, and get the same answer. Now I’m quite experienced on my steed, so it wasn’t really a problem. Still.

One thing I would do differently is the speed/height. Flying an RV cruising 150-170kts, I would now definitely use the 135 knots and 2300‘ if needed for the safety of flight
 
Taking action

I've forwarded this link to the EAA volunteer who is in a position to make things happen, and to the airport itself via their web site.

Ed
 
Working mainly on 18/36 I saw some very radical exits from the runway into the grass. I was not on the ATC frequency, so I don't know what was being said to the pilots, but some of those exits looked dangerous. Chirping, smoking, and turning into the grass gets your attention. Some aircraft were exiting into the grass just 20 feet before the taxiway. Why not just continue to the taxiway? I didn't have a chance to talk to any of these pilots, so I don't know why they did that - perhaps the urgency of the ATC telling them to exit the runway gave them the impression they were about to get hit from behind?

The only close calls I saw were the group arrivals/formation landings. A few aircraft got close, but thankfully none traded paint.
 
Rushed in the grass/ not smooth

Grass wasn’t smooth and I made the mistake to move as fast as the directors kept pushing. Bouncing all the way. Nose wheel fairing and RH main wheel pant damage resulted.. if that ground was rolled off 27 I’d hate to see it rough.
 
Why not just continue to the taxiway? I didn't have a chance to talk to any of these pilots, so I don't know why they did that - perhaps the urgency of the ATC telling them to exit the runway gave them the impression they were about to get hit from behind?

I think you answered your own question. The only times i've come close to issues at controlled fields have been when I was near task saturation and the tower says to do something and I haven't the brain cycles left to question it. The OP said he was first told to extend, then told to get down and nail the brakes, then told to just get off the runway any way he could. All of that would suggest to me that something was barreling down my 6 and I need to take emergency action to avoid something worse. Countering with "I'll wait until the taxiway cones show up" probably wouldn't be my reaction either.
 
I think you answered your own question. The only times i've come close to issues at controlled fields have been when I was near task saturation and the tower says to do something and I haven't the brain cycles left to question it. The OP said he was first told to extend, then told to get down and nail the brakes, then told to just get off the runway any way he could. All of that would suggest to me that something was barreling down my 6 and I need to take emergency action to avoid something worse. Countering with "I'll wait until the taxiway cones show up" probably wouldn't be my reaction either.

There's a whole bunch of questionable psychology at the bottom of all this. It's not clear that the controllers and pilots have the same goals for flight safety; there's considerable pressure on the pilots, including peer pressure, to do what they're told without question; and landing on the dot adds pressure to land on the center (left/right) of the runway and research shows this increases workload and stress.

Lastly, the FAA controller in charge of the show this year had never been to AirVenture before, not even as a visitor. NATCA assigns controllers as a perk, and that is not always to the pilots' benefit.
 
Last edited:
Directions to Exit Runway - Oops, Too Late!

Just an FYI - The incident I'm about to relate happened in (almost) the last century - so this kind of stuff is pretty much ongoing because of the hectic nature of the arrivals. No blame, just a first hand observation.

A friends HRII was cleared to land, and did so, and was then told to immediately exit the runway to the left onto the grass taxiway, and he complied. What they forgot to tell him; and, he was under enough pressure to comply with their instructions, that he didn't notice a runway light, which he promptly ran over.

Destroyed his brand new Hartzell right on the spot.

All he got from anyone on the field was - you are the pilot in command of your aircraft, and are responsible for its safety. And, of course, they are absolutely correct - but sometimes in the "heat" of battle there can be overriding considerations that lower that margin of safety needed to protect your airplane.

A lot of back and forth went on that week to get him back in the air, including flying a new propeller from CA in the cabin of a Piper Arrow (can you say tight squeeze?).

When he got back, he advised me, since I would probably go the following year, to look out for "me" first - as safely/rapidly as I could, but first and foremost, look out for me.

Sure enough, next year comes, I land on 27, and the first thing the controller does is to direct me to exit the runway on the left to join the coned, grass taxiway. Wouldn't you know it - if I had done so when directed, I also would have impacted a RW light! While deciding where an appropriate exit point was, I kept getting directions to exit - which I did after determining it was safe to do so.

My point of all this is to point out that, without the ringing in my ears from my friends advice, and keeping it foremost in my mind while landing, I'm pretty sure I would have trashed my prop also.

Just sayin' - remember who is (supposed to be) in control.

Thanks for listenin' - YMMV (and hopefully will)

HFS
 
There's a whole bunch of questionable psychology at the bottom of all this. It's not clear that the controllers and pilots have the same goals for flight safety; there's considerable pressure on the pilots, including peer pressure, to do what they're told without question; and landing on the dot adds pressure to land on the center (left/right) of the runway and research shows this increasing workload and stress.

This is the elephant in the room with activities like airventure. All the stories I have heard here and from friends who have attended for many years regarding flying in to the show have me nearly convinced not even to try it during the peak times.

As they say in self defense classes: the best way to win a fight is not to be in it in the first place.
 
Your insurance may seek recovery through subrogation against the airport.

It's clear it was contemplated that aircraft would be taxiing across the area, the airport should have marked "exit lanes" or marked the obstacle.

FWIW

airport likely has no negligence here. It wasn't the airport personnel that directed them into a concrete block; That was a volunteer working under the guidance of the EAA. Possibly they could get something from EAA, who could be accused of negligence for either not identifying the obstruction or not properly training the volunteer to avoid it. It is the EAA, not the airport personnel that is directing ground traffic and I would be all but certain there is a hold harmless agreement in place between EAA and airport, If not, the airport deserves what they get. I am sure there is an airport policy prohibiting taxi operations in grass, excluding emergencies, and EAA has to sign up for the liability if they want to marshall planes in the grass. I could be wrong but just don't see the airport signing up for this kind of liability. EAA is making millions off this event and can afford to take it on.

Larry
 
Last edited:
Mike’s question was not about EAA’s liability, it was about the individual(s) volunteer flagmen and their liability. That’s the part I find dangerous.

For the record EAA has zero to do with directing airplanes on to and off of runways. That is 100% the FAA controllers.

Since this thread is rubbing up against Doug’s rules already I’ll refrain from further comment.

There is no way that the FAA would direct an aircraft off a runway on anything but a paved taxiway unless someone else assumed liability for doing so. Too many lawyers at the FAA to allow that. You're not going to get the FAA to do non standard things unless you are willing to take the blame for anything bad that happens from doing so.

This is squarely on the EAA. They have an obligation to identify dangerous obstructions in the grass OR advise the FAA controllers on where and where not to send aircraft to avoid those obstructions. Given that for years the controllers say turn on to grass when able implies that they are not given any guidance by the EAA and every other day of the year they are prohibited from doing this. So, hard to blame them.

Larry
 
Last edited:
The one word magic response is UNABLE!!!!!

I get the impression that the aura and mystique surrounding "The Arrival" has lulled us into giving up a portion of our common sense, and responsibility to be PIC.

It's completely understandable that if you hear a controller practically yelling get off the runway, exit now, etc, you feel an urgency to comply, because at any other airport any other time of the year, you know something is going down RIGHT NOW! if they are using that tone and words.

But, at OSH, the controller may be as unfamiliar with the arrival and procedures as you are (meaning to say, they are as stressed as you are at making sure nothing goes wrong, and this may be their first time at the event, and first time seeing airplanes so close together; I am not suggesting that they don't know the arrival). I would imagine also that from the tower, airplanes look much closer together than they actually are. They are under stress to get it right, and if airplanes collide, that's on them, but if you run over a taxi light, well they didn't tell you to do that...

In another forum, Jack Pelton said "It's your show", or words to that effect. Well, it's your flight, your airplane, you're PIC. While I wouldn't want to get plowed into from behind, I have to focus on what's ahead of me: other planes, RW lights, flagmen, etc. If that means someone behind me has to go around, then so be it.

I am not suggesting that you dawdle around on the runway, but I see no reason to have a mishap and pay for an engine and prop because ATC is stressed, and the guy behind me is unfamiliar with the go around procedures, or is unwilling to do the downwind again.

I have to wonder, based on the other thread about record attendance numbers, how long this situation can last. I know many of us feel like the current arrival procedures, all the way out to "Portage", is probably not sustainable, but then what is?

We probably all have lots of idea, but unfortunately, it's really hard to test them before the fact (though I think PilotEdge has the right idea using real controllers in the sim, using the real procedures; maybe some traffic flow testing could be done there somehow?).

I also find it interesting that in the history of EAA/Airventure, this is the 3rd airport used for the event, the event outgrew the previous 2...
 
The one word magic response is UNABLE!!!!!

I was going to say the same thing.
I am seeing lots of video of taildraggers landing in the stiff crosswind on 36 and using poor technique. The workload and saturation are already very high, coupled with a "spot" landing which is likely unpracticed by most, throw in a controller that is also saturated, and well...

Like I said, I would have requested 27 at Fisk, and if assigned 36 would have said "unable". In my 6A, 36 would be no problem. 8? I would not be comfortable, at least not yet.

The Fisk controllers should consider landing gear configuration when assigning runways in those conditions. I also can't understand the one mile spacing for a single runway that's over a mile long, with dots for multiple touchdown points. Seems like most times after passing Fisk, I can't even see the plane in front of me. It goes from chaos to nothing. Really conservative spacing. Yeah, they will thread in warbirds and IFR arrivals into that final, but they could be landing a lot more planes on that concrete. I'm used to 500-1000 foot spacing on a formation pitchout, so probably more comfortable with seeing a plane in front of me on the runway.

I also side-step to the exit side on the runway after landing (at the assigned dot), just in case there's a plane coming up my a$$ (also a formation habit), and select an exit point I'm comfortable with. Usually a hard surface, or grass with existing tracks.
 
This incident sounds like a close call that thankfully only resulted in some ac damage, and no one was hurt. Responsibility for the obstruction is a matter for another discussion.

I'll agree with some of the previous comments regarding situational evaluation, and second the statement that you are PIC of your aircraft at all times. It's pretty easy (from my limited experience) to get caught up in the general "Git er Done" attitude when arriving OSH. The pace is quick and decisions need to be made quickly ... no failure in bugging out if the conditions don't look acceptable (crosswinds, traffic, interval etc) and a safe landing could or should be made elsewhere. From the NOTICE:

"First, fly the aircraft. If you are not comfortable with the OSH AirVenture
procedures, please consider flying into FLD or ATW and taking public
transportation to OSH. " pg.5

Later, the NOTICE warns that :

"Pilots should be prepared for a combination of maneuvers that may
include a short approach with descending turns, followed by touchdown at a point
specified by ATC which may be almost halfway down the runway. Use extra
caution to maintain a safe airspeed throughout the approach to landing." pg. 8

All of this info was presented up front by the EAA regarding OSH procedures... and we all carefully studied the NOTICE.

It seems to me that the nature of this beast raises the level of required performance significantly, and it's up to the pilot to decide whether their skill and ac combination are suitable for attending the event.

Instead of reinventing the arrival procedure wheel, and I am not opposed to practical improvements, but I am wary of unintended consequences ... maybe the burden should shift to the pilots involved to decide if they're up for playing that day.

Fly safe
 
++1

Plus 1! Couldn’t agree more.
Instead of reinventing the arrival procedure wheel, and I am not opposed to practical improvements, but I am wary of unintended consequences ... maybe the burden should shift to the pilots involved to decide if they're up for playing that day.
 
"First, fly the aircraft. If you are not comfortable with the OSH AirVenture
procedures, please consider flying into FLD or ATW and taking public
transportation to OSH. " pg.5
.
.
.
Instead of reinventing the arrival procedure wheel, and I am not opposed to practical improvements, but I am wary of unintended consequences ... maybe the burden should shift to the pilots involved to decide if they're up for playing that day.

Fly safe

Completely agree. Two separate years, upon see what was happen on the Fisk arrival, I did not hesitate to divert to Appleton. No different than making weather divert decisions, know your limitations and have a plan. Minor inconvenience but I arrived safe and even made it to show center at OSH faster than playing the Fisk game.
 
Last edited:
This guy also had a hard time getting off 27 on Sunday. He turned left. Didn't help.
 

Attachments

  • e882315a-fd86-4a60-906d-2901cdc1c07b.JPG
    e882315a-fd86-4a60-906d-2901cdc1c07b.JPG
    265.8 KB · Views: 478
Last edited:
I’m sad to hear of this accident. But we can all learn from it.

My favorite word in aviation is “unable.” I use it more than I care to at a local airport when flying a T-6 and other taildraggers.

Land on X runway with a quartering tailwind. Unable.

Make this turn off. Unable.

Follow the Diamond doing 80 knots. Unable.

I don’t care if it pisses them off. As PIC, I have to know the safe outcome of my operation at all times. It’s ATC’s problem if spacing isn’t right or the winds exceed my or the airplane’s limitations. Of course, I’m more than happy to work with everyone and be cooperative. To a point.

This is not criticism of the OP. It IS a great reminder for all of us.

Be safe out there.
 
Thread drift

Since this thread has drifted a little I’ll share one more thought. One particular improvement I would like to see addressed in the “Notice” next year is some clarification about airspeed. We all know the Notice says fly 90 knts at 1800 feet but I swear the two high wings in front of me were much, much slower than that. When I asked them to push it up one said - I’m flying 103 true.

We know a lot of GA aircraft fly using mph instead of knots. I suspect many ATC types think mostly in knots when talking to pilots. Vans publishes their RV performance specifications in mph as an example of GA thinking. I believe the two high wings in front of me were using mph because a 103 knots true equates to about 90 knots indicated at 1800 and 80 degrees. Adjusting the same relationship to mph 103 true mph equals about 90 mph which equals about 78 knots indicated. So while I was traveling 90 knots the high wings in front of me traveling at an indicated 90 mph were actually flying 78 kts indicated. I couldn’t stay behind them no matter what I did and circled Green lake to get away from them flying so slow.. Ugh! Getting back in line proved to be a challenge - again probably should have gone back to south of Portage and re-entered but two and a-half hours of holding played into my decision to circle Green Lake and re-enter the conga line.

I honestly believe this indicated airspeed difference issue caused some of the problems with people maintaining one mile in trail. I would like to see next year’s Notice give two speeds to fly. One in knots and one in mph. Example: fly 90 kts/104 mph at 1800 feet for the VFR entry and have controllers say the same when discussing one mile in trail and aircraft separation. This, I believe, would give newer pilots who fly aircraft with mph readouts a reminder that 90 indicated is not the same for all aircraft and would improve the maintaining of aircraft separation. It would also help remind controllers that not every aircraft flying the VFR arrival has kts airspeed indicators.

I think a lot of the trouble and stress controllers experienced was a direct result of aircraft not maintaining separation. Flying a different indicated 90 causes aircraft to bunch up. The controllers aircraft separation stress I’m sure was shared with the pilots by some of the directions they gave out asking folks to extend their landings, brake hard, and exit the runway quickly. Stress does ugly things to people both inside and outside the cockpit. My additional two cents.

The Notice needs to address this issue better - in my opinion!
 
I forget if it was '88 or '89, but I found myself inbound - carrying lots of power and flaps to stay behind a C-150 with partial flaps, I just passed to the right, displaying my appreciation with a single digit and re-entered once past.
 
Which other way would he turn? That’s the direction of parking.

I've landed on 27 in prior years and been directed to turn right, taxiing back to the approach end of 27 before crossing. Parking location has ZERO to do with your runway exit direction. Follow the guidemen, trust but verify.

Here it is, straight from the OSH "Notice" page 11:

"After landing and when speed permits, aircraft under 6,250 lbs. are required to exit RWY 27 to the left or right, as directed, onto the sod. Do not turn back onto the runway. Be alert and use caution for hazards marked with cones and/or flags."

Obviously in this case the hazard was not marked. Devastating and demoralizing to have your pride and joy damaged during an event that is supposed to be fun. Hindsight is always 20/20, glad no one got hurt.
 
This is alarming and preventable...

the FAA controller in charge of the show this year had never been to AirVenture before, not even as a visitor. NATCA assigns controllers as a perk, and that is not always to the pilots' benefit.

There were a large number of these new concrete covers installed all over the field this year and the parking crews were not warned of them in advance.

There is ALWAYS room for improvement, and the two issues above regarding the person in charge and the ground hazards, are certainly candidates. We are also candidates for improvement as PIC.

I think another area for improvement could be controllers along the arrival spinning out more aircraft that are not spot-on the procedure, as this would enhance the flow. For example, we were a flight of two following a Bonanza that appeared to be lost. This aircraft was missing turn points and drifting easily 1/4 nm or more left and right of course multiple times, as it "zig zagged" across my windscreen back and forth while the conga line ahead was easily visible. This continually reduced our in-trail spacing, and I thought for sure Fiske would spin us out. Luckily, they sent the Bonanza to the 36's and we continued inbound for 27. (BTW, as the Bonanza should have followed the east/west road, it took a ground track southeasterly, presumably still confused).

I am adding my experience to the EAA forum on the subject.

As Carlos and others have pointed out, the Notice contains myriad guidance, alerts, warnings and cautions. As PIC we must ensure that we are thoroughly familiar with this and understand that we are the final decision maker in the operation of our aircraft. We do not want our "freedoms" and events such as this limited further.
 
There may be more facts to accompany this photo. . .

This guy also had a hard time getting off 27 on Sunday. He turned left. Didn't help.

before we draw conclusions. IIRC, A while back (as posted on VAF w/video) an airshow pilot in a row of 8's with full flaps (simultaneously) did a start, run-up and smoke on the line. With full flaps, that 8 nosed over and it could not be stopped according to the pilot.
 
I flew my -8 into AirVenture last year on Thursday before the show to avoid the crowds. Will probably do the same next year. This year, a group of us brought one of those 4 wheel Ford RV’s up and camped in Scholler. Sunday afternoon I settled down under a Yak parked in Warbirds with my handheld radio, listening to the controllers give directions to aircraft landing on 27. In the space a a few minutes, I watched a polished Cessna 190/195 ignore instructions and proceed to descend and land, causing a Falcon jet to go around, then saw a canard do basically the same thing, although not causing another aircraft to go around. I also saw a Cessna twin on right downwind to 27 proceed to turn to left downwind on 36, never responding to the controller’s instructions. I wonder if that was the one on which the gear collapsed on landing. I’m probably preaching to the choir here, but just because you’ve flown in to AirVenture a dozen or more times, you need to read the NOTAM every year and study the changes. And you need to listen to the controllers and follow instructions, unless as PIC you determine you or your aircraft are unable.

To the OP, I hope all this works out and you are back flying sooner than expected. I’m sorry that your trip to AirVenture was affected by this accident.
 
Jim I feel terrible for you, that's an awful way to start your week off. Hope the overhaul doesn't take 6 months like the last two I was part of did, supply chain issues on parts that needed replaced.

I also watched on Sunday afternoon with a radio in hand in all that wind at about the mid-point of 27, I think I saw that 190/195 you're referring to. I also watched a TBM line up on final for 9 heading straight at the arrivals landing on 27, only after the second or third frantic call from the controllers did the TBM break off his approach and join up into the downwind for 27. Seriously, how in the !@#$ does that happen, especially with the winds that day????

I also notice a trend of the controllers who try to 'fly' the aircraft via their voice commands. I think 97% of the pilots do a fantastic job of complying with the controllers instructions but I also see way too many pilots who are letting the controller 'fly' their airplane. You be PIC, let the controllers deal with the chaos behind you.
 
being a good pic wouldn't necessarily save you. it is not logical to think it would. there are rules to follow and that's what you do.you didn't picture a chunk of concrete.
lets say this happened at a small airport in the middle of anywhere. you land and a line person points and says park it right there. then the accident happens. i would think you wouldn't give a second thought about recovering your loss from a responsible party. same should apply. everyone can't just shrug their shoulders. ''it's a big airport''. what a line.
 
My beef is the ATC "keep it in the air" repetitive coaching to cover HIS/HER @$$ on min painted marker interval all the while the follower is hot, high, long of their marker and closing the gap.

Then- the prodding begins to exit immediately- because you are being run over like the T28 killing the C152, flown by friend of a coworker at Compton.

Go arounds put you in a priority position, not back in line. Don't be cornered, please. Problem is this norm and situational awareness may not fill in the picture as it unfollds- or you follow direction and find the OP's extreme outcome.

This year I got passed on the left, on left base 36 L just past the microwave tower by an RV going way over 90 knots and luckily early in descent. Had a very easy time dragging back to 1/2 mile as ATC asked "lead" if we were a formation. By the "uh, no", I fixed most of the issue.
 

Attachments

  • 200.gif
    200.gif
    972.7 KB · Views: 74
Last edited:
Post #14

Do you have any documentation for this?

Just reading these posts, I’d make one comment that is not in any way intended to criticize the OP, but something that those who haven’t been in to OSH a bunch of times might not know. Don’t worry about going around - they don’t send you back to Ripon or Endeavour - they just slot you back into the downwind, so the go-around costs you a couple of minutes, and that’s all. If you don’t like what’s going on, you’re PIC - go around, and try again!

I'll go with Paul's post #14 in this thread.

A go around does not mean you get to go 25 south of Portage and start all over. That would be nonsense and if true would further incentivize NOT going around and reducing safety even further.
 
I'll go with Paul's post #14 in this thread.

A go around does not mean you get to go 25 south of Portage and start all over. That would be nonsense and if true would further incentivize NOT going around and reducing safety even further.

I can confirm, ATC gave me a go around last year on 27, they sequenced me right into the downwind.
 
Do you have any documentation for this?

Turning base to final for 27 I was told to “turn left heading south”. Boy, was I thinking quickly what the issues were heading into 18/36 traffic. No sooner did I have full power and flaps retracting did he say “turn left 270 degrees cleared to land 27 green dot.” A little difficult slow down again and getting flaps down but I had practiced a similar scenario have watch previous years pilots turning short short finals and told to hit a dot.
 
Last edited:
I can confirm, ATC gave me a go around last year on 27, they sequenced me right into the downwind.

Same here, about 2013. I was cleared to the 27 green dot, but a runway controller released a departure which looked like a conflict, so I clicked mike and said "Going around". The tower controller immediately responded with "Turn right to downwind." Didn't even pull the flaps, nearly a constant radius turn back to final.
 
Do you have any documentation for this?

The words are not in the notice, but are on the Tower freqs when listening live. I do the vultures' row watching/listening as some early weekend arrivers do.

27/36 they get you in a low right downwind like departures, usually a short pattern at 5-600' away from the tower.

Warbirds may go back to the island when changing runways for crosswinds driving go arounds. GAs get resequenced also without diverts or restarts.

I was in the shade near this Youtuber for:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VNbWZ7bQUvw

4:40 L-39 goes around, back on deck 2 minutes later.

9:17, groundloop setup from ATC float to a position likely not practiceable..

A little further north, more of the go arounds, folks changed to 27 for the most part:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EsxiRdQPUvI
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top