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SureFly feedback before I pull the trigger

Sam Buchanan

been here awhile
Both mags on my carbed O-320 are due either 500+ hour inspection or overhaul. They both work fine but due to cost analysis I'm strongly considering replacing the impulse mag with a SureFly impulse ignition. I can purchase the SureFly for about the same expense as two overhauled Tempest Slicks. My lowest time mag (non-impulse) would get an inspection and light refreshing as necessary since it would be relegated to backup duty.

There is some SureFly feedback in the archives but not much current info. I would really appreciate field experience from RVers who are using this ignition. I intend to use it in fixed timing mode for simplicity--I don't fly enough hours to make an incremental saving in fuel burn a major factor.

Comments appreciated!
 
I haven't owned a SureFly but did stay at a Holiday Inn last night ...

The SureFly doesn't have a generator, it's uses ship power, and if you're installing two, it's required that you have a backup battery system in place so budget for that, could get expensive and complicated.

PMAGs, in comparison, have an internal generator, no secondary battery necessary, but are a few hundred dollars more than the SureFly.
 
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I haven't owned a SureFly but did stay at a Holiday Inn last night ...

The SureFly doesn't have a generator, it's uses ship power, and if you're installing two, it's required that you have a backup battery system in place so budget for that, could get expensive and complicated.

PMAGs, in comparison, have an internal generator, no secondary battery necessary, but are a few hundred dollars more than the SureFly.

As stated in my post......only going to replace the impulse mag.
 
Both mags on my carbed O-320 are due either 500+ hour inspection or overhaul. They both work fine but due to cost analysis I'm strongly considering replacing the impulse mag with a SureFly impulse ignition. I can purchase the SureFly for about the same expense as two overhauled Tempest Slicks. My lowest time mag (non-impulse) would get an inspection and light refreshing as necessary since it would be relegated to backup duty.

There is some SureFly feedback in the archives but not much current info. I would really appreciate field experience from RVers who are using this ignition. I intend to use it in fixed timing mode for simplicity--I don't fly enough hours to make an incremental saving in fuel burn a major factor.

Comments appreciated!

How much does it cost to overhaul 2 mags? I should be there by the end of this year.
 
Not sure the prop you are using

Sam, apparently there has been an issue with the Surefly and "light-weight" props i.e. "kickback" on starting. My hangar neighbor had to return his Surefly because he has a Catto, and was getting the kick-back. There is a thread, somewhere on this from last Fall.

I do covet the Surefly for my impulse-side mag., just to make hot starts go a little easier.

Ron
 
Sam, apparently there has been an issue with the Surefly and "light-weight" props i.e. "kickback" on starting. My hangar neighbor had to return his Surefly because he has a Catto, and was getting the kick-back. There is a thread, somewhere on this from last Fall.

I do covet the Surefly for my impulse-side mag., just to make hot starts go a little easier.

Ron

I also believe I read a post that had issues with getting TAC signal, but it might been more of complicated set op rather than an issue.
 
Sam,

I recently did as you propose - replaced the left impulse-coupled Slick with a Surefly and retained the right non-impulse coupled Slick. Gapped the Surefly plugs to .030 and also set it up for fixed timing. My engine (IO-360-M1B) always started well. Now, with same cold/hot techniques, it starts even better, and seems to idle smoother.

I did lose Tach1, as it does not put out a signal that my GRT4000 can read (see VAF thread "Surefly mag check issue on EIS4000"). Can get that back with either a magnetic tach sender on the right mag, such as UMA T1A9, or Vans TACHGEN2 sender off the engine tach drive. Surefly did tell me that they are working on a module to interface with many tachs.

My prop is a metal Hartzell. So, probably no kickback issues. However, I wanted some insurance. See VAF thread, "Starter Kickback on new Surefly Installation". Particularly Posts #28 and #30 from Dan, and #34 from Ross. I used the procedure described by Dan, but timed to fire at 3 degrees after top center, on start, and the normal (for an -M1B) 25 degrees before top center, otherwise.

Hope that helps.

Best regards,

Merrill
 
Thank you, Merrill, your experience is a good datapoint.

I saw the posts about the kickback and tweaking the "impulse" timing. I have a fixed metal Sensenich so there will be more inertia than the light Catto. I think this will be a well-supported ignition due to Lycoming being onboard.

Overhaul cost for two Slicks is $1440 (ACS price) for two Tempest overhauled mags, even more if sourced from Champion. Overhaul parts kits are about as much as the overhauled mags. So the new impulse SureFly (2400 hr TBO) is less than overhauling two used mags which will need attention in another 500 hours.

The tach issue isn't a big deal for me, I've been flying the plane so long I can tell by ear/feel if the mag drop is excessive. Most likely there won't be much in the way of drop with the SureFly.
 
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Been super happy with mine for the last 2-3 years. No issues so far and starts great hot or cold. On an i0 540 though.
 
Aviat Husky 200hp angle valve IO-360 with MT C/S 2-blade composite prop: I installed a SureFly in place of the right side Slick non-impulse mag and kept the left side impulse coupled Slick. I also removed the shorting jumper from the ignition key switch so both L and R are un-grounded and therefore allow both to fire for start. I figured what could be better than all the spark available at start. Plus never know when I will need to hand prop a dead battery in which case I can depend on the original impulsed Slick. While hand prop starting is probably not as important for an RV remember that mine is in a Husky that may well be in the boonies when a dead battery hits. There is no electrical or functional difference between the SureFly impulse or non-impulse replacement models. The difference is the housings are different so that whichever one you decide to replace you can use the original drive gear. This is as opposed to the P-mag which only provides the option of the non-impulse gear which means most folks have to buy an extra gear when replacing the LHS mag. SureFly went to the effort to accommodate whichever type of gear you want to use.

I have the same thoughts as you and decided to set the SureFly to fixed timing per the engine data plate. I chose fixed timing for simplicity and also because I have read the angle-valve engines do not respond as well as parallel valve engines to variable advance timing curves. Plus the low-level mission profile of a bush plane won't actualize any economy from an advance timing curve. I have never experienced a kick back.

The SureFly has been awesome. I probably have about 150 hours on mine. Starts easy both cold and hot even with fuel rejection. And since the SureFly fires at TDC for start even a slow starter works as good as a fast one. For reference, even if set with fixed timing the SureFly still uses TDC for start before ramping back to the fixed timing value once a minimum RPM is achieved.

The unit itself seems very hearty and robust and probably weighs as much or more as a magneto. It is wired directly to the positive side of the battery with a 10A fuse prior to the master solenoid for reliability and failure mitigation. So the power wire is "always hot" which might be a concern. The 10A fuse should cover any inadvertent shorting.

My RV-8 has dual P-Mags and I like those too. But the SureFly on the Husky performs as well without the price tag, although the P-Mags do have an advantage of generating their own spark without battery power above about 800rpm.

I would buy and install a SureFly again in a heart beat.

Jim
 
Jim, great field report, thanks!

My rational for replacing the impulse mag is to say goodbye to the mechanical impulse. Even though unlikely for a well-maintained mag if the impulse fails and drops debris into the timing gears the engine will stop. There is also the increased cost of replacing a worn impulse. But your need for being able to hand prop in a pinch makes sense.

I read the installation doc and couldn’t tell which side of the master contactor needs to power the SureFly. Glad to see it is intended to be hot all the time....removes the possibility of a failed or turned off contactor taking out the ignition.
 
And I forgot to mention in my previous post. With respect to digital tachometers. The SureFly doesn't put out the same type of strong pulse a magneto rotor does so tach sensing can be an issue. SureFly has worked out solutions. For example, I have an EI CGR30P which out of the box senses tach pulses from each magneto by attaching to each p-lead terminal on the ignition switch. This worked great with my Slicks but the SureFly caused an error message that R magneto was inop. I still had RPM shown on "both" because the Slick was still sensed for L mag. There wasn't an actual problem and a mag check had the SureFly working strong and great with the ignition switch set on "R" while the CGR screen showed zero RPM. The "fix" was to replace the original in-line resistor that was part of the EI installation on the Right P-lead with a new resistor of lower value. EI calls these in-line resistors "isolators" for whatever reason. Isolator sounds more like a diode to me but whatever floats their boat. I bought a 5-pack of these resistors for a buck on eBay and replaced the original EI component and everything works fine. SureFly has resistor spec listed within its online FAQs. Unfortunately it's not in the installation instructions, just within online support documents. I think the fact the SureFly is STC'd makes it difficult for them to update the approved installation manual. This can lead folks like me to do a full install following the manual and then button everything up only to then find out there is a tach problem that needs to be addressed.

One more nit. When doing a run-up mag check the SureFly might have a microsecond of a pause when selected to check drop. This can get your attention at first. Basically the unit has been switched off by the ignition switch and then at the instant it's P-Lead is selected it has to wake up and immediately take over. It being a computer-controlled device there is that microsecond where you can detect an almost imperceptible miss as the unit kicks in. You will not hear this if you have separate magneto switches instead of a keyed ignition switch. SureFly told me there is no problem caused by this but they are working on incorporating a design change to preclude this. Probably as much to deflect a bunch of phone calls from concerned pilots.

If anybody has tach issues with the SureFly call your tach manufacturer (like EI) or SureFly for guidance.

Here is a thread I started with photos of my install on the Husky in case somebody wants to take a walk on the tube and fabric side:
http://flyhusky.com/forum/index.php?threads/surefly-electronic-ignition-module.2456/

Jim
 
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I need to stop replying to posts on my mobile without reading glasses .. :eek: .. been trying to cross the 50 yard line without needing them :p :(
Give in to aging old man....:D (as I put my cheaters on)

Sounds like a few good comments from Experience. I'm a SDS fan, but I always like the idea of self contained EI, like E-Mag (P-Mag), easier installation and self powered. EI is a choice and have pros and cons. The SureFly being STC it is less flexible and likely more conservative timing. I am surprised it kicks back light props, it should put out a hot TDC spark for start.... but this can be an issue with EI.
 
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Sam,

I am about to install a SureFly SIM4P on my RV-8 in place of my LH impulse Slick mag. I have been working with SureFly to figure out both the kick back and tach signal issues.

The kick back issue is solved the same way as with a P-Mag, time it 2-3 degrees past TDC. I was getting kick backs from the P-Mag when it was timed at TDC (Yes I have a Catto prop).

You probably wont have the same issue with your metal sensi prop.

The tach signal issue is solved using their tach board which converts the signal into a 5 VDC signal that the Dynon (and other EMS) can use.

I am over at HSV, come on over if you like.

I have already installed a SureFly on a AA5A, it was simple to install....and it even worked when we tried to start it the first time...no fire, smoke or kick backs.
 
Sam,
I have a new SureFly on the left, Slick mag on the right on my RV4, O-360, carbed , metal Sensenich. No kickbacks so far. One way to protect yourself is to set your start timing to 5* after TDC, and set your dip switches in the mag to 30* (assuming you have a normal 25* engine). Your engine will start like a car and you will have the same advance curve you would have if you set start timing to TDC and set dip switches to 25*.

SureFly recommends replacing the left/impulse mag due to potential impulse coupling problems. There are two Champion/Slick service bulletins (SB1-19 and SB2-19) dealing with impulse couplings coming apart and causing damage to the accessory gears and possible engine failure.

As far as a tach signal, what I did is put a UMA T1A9 sending unit on my right mag. It will show RPM regardless of p-lead position because it?s sensing the magnet in the spinning mag. I had a sensor left over after installing two Pmags on my last airplane - RV8.

I have not experienced any hesitation during runup mag check as mentioned here. I got rid of my keyed mag switch as recommended by Bob Nuckolls and installed two toggle switches instead and a push button starter.
 
Here is a thread I started with photos of my install on the Husky in case somebody wants to take a walk on the tube and fabric side:
http://flyhusky.com/forum/index.php?threads/surefly-electronic-ignition-module.2456/

Jim

Jim, excellent thread with good info.....I walk on the tube and fabric side many warm, smooth summer evenings. :)

assembly-42.jpg


I'm ordering an impulse SureFly today.
 
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I installed the Surefly on the right side of my O-360, leaving the left
impulse coupled mag on the left (tach pickup on the left mag). I run
the advance and have had no issues other than the momentary
cutout when checking the ignition at mag check (only happens occasionally,
but always when checking in flight). There is a flight school on the field
that has installed several on PA-28-140's and loves them. They also
commented on the occasional cutouts but have had no other issues (all
key mag switches). I removed another brand of electronic ignition on the right
side to install the Surefly. I have not been disappointed.
 
Slightly off topic...

The current, new IO-540 from Vans comes with one retard mag (not impulse), which pretty much requires the builder to spend another $1K on a ?Slick-Start? or similar box. Total (mag plus SlickStart) costs more than the electronic ignition under discussion. How long before Vans makes the switch?
 
The current, new IO-540 from Vans comes with one retard mag (not impulse), which pretty much requires the builder to spend another $1K on a ?Slick-Start? or similar box. Total (mag plus SlickStart) costs more than the electronic ignition under discussion. How long before Vans makes the switch?

Probably as soon as Lycoming starts selling their version.
 
Surefly

Love mine! I have it on an IO-360 200hp and one slick. My engine runs better, my hot starts are significantly better because of it. It works well with my G3X touch system. I put a battery back up on it which was no big deal so it will run if I lose electrical. It is straight forward to install, super simple and has a TBO of 2400 hours. You can do the math on overhauling slicks every 500 hours. The support is great at helping you install it. When I got mine almost 2 years ago they shipped it set up for my engine. Pretty awesome.
 
Follow-up

A follow-up post-installation but before test flights. Installation went well with only one hiccup. The SureFly is initially timed with an external power source and the built-in LED. The timing gear is turned until the LED goes out which indicates the mag is set for TDC.

Since I am using fixed 25* timing the manifold pressure port on the mag isn't used. The installation doc says to cap the port if unused, which I did prior to hooking up external power. When I attempted initial internal timing of the mag, the LED blinked rapidly instead of being lit continuously. There is a note in the doc to call Surefly if this indication is seen.

The call to tech support was answered promptly and I was instructed to remove the cap on the pressure port. After doing that the mag then timed properly. It seems the doc is out-of-date in that SureFly now wants the port to remain open if set for fixed timing.

Initial start was quick and smooth and rpm drop on the SureFly is similar to the Slick on the right side. Our weather has been incredibly skunky and wet so test flights have not yet occurred.

In regard to a backup battery....the SureFly draws about 0.6 amp and I have it connected directly to the aircraft battery. If the alternator died the 20Ahr battery should power the mag for much longer than needed to complete the flight. And....there is the ol' Slick mag on the right side that is still firing. My mission profile is such that I'm comfortable without installing an additional battery for the SureFly.
 
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Sam,

Just curious as to why you are doing fixed timing. For me the main gain from electronic ignitions is timing advance in cruise to gain engine efficiency.

Carl
 
Sam,

Just curious as to why you are doing fixed timing. For me the main gain from electronic ignitions is timing advance in cruise to gain engine efficiency.

Carl

Just for simplicity....I'll wait until there is more field history on the SureFly advance curve before deciding whether or not to use the advanced timing. I don't spend much time flying at altitudes where the advantages of advanced timing can be found. I also want the option for using auto gas and Surefly states not to use the advance mode with mogas. My rational for the SureFly wasn't for increased efficiency but rather to eliminate a mechanical ignition.
 
Just for simplicity....I don't spend much time flying at altitudes where the advantages of advanced timing can be found. I also want the option for using auto gas and Surefly states not to use the advance mode with mogas. My rational for the SureFly wasn't for increased efficiency but rather to eliminate a mechanical ignition.

BINGO, just got my question answered. I want to keep mogas as I use it every time I fly and 95% of my flying is below 7000' MSL. My research is because of the cost of overhauling a Slick Mag and both of mine could be up to the 500 hour mark by the end of the year, even though my engine starts great and I have no issues whatsoever with them.

Having said that, if everything looks good, do overhaulers do I.R.A.N. on them specially changing the gear, which seems to be the scariest part if it fails, and leaving everything else if it's still good, or do they just replace everything?
 
The Slick 500-hr parts kits sold by Aircraft Spruce do not include a new gear. I've never heard of gear replacement being part of a mag overhaul, but maybe it happens in some cases. When my engine was overhauled all the gears were magnafluxed and I assumed they were then considered good to go until engine TBO. I'm more concerned about the impulse mechanism failing than the gear.
 
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The Slick 500-hr parts kits sold by Aircraft Spruce do not include a new gear. I've never heard of gear replacement being part of a mag overhaul, but maybe it happens in some cases. When my engine was overhauled all the gears were magnafluxed and I assumed they were then considered good to go until engine TBO. I'm more concerned about the impulse mechanism failing than the gear.

Sorry for my ignorance, that's what I was thinking about when I asked, not the gear, the part that breaks and destroys the engine.
 
The Slick 500-hr parts kits sold by Aircraft Spruce do not include a new gear. I've never heard of gear replacement being part of a mag overhaul, but maybe it happens in some cases. When my engine was overhauled all the gears were magnafluxed and I assumed they were then considered good to go until engine TBO. I'm more concerned about the impulse mechanism failing than the gear.

QAA will overhaul your mag (with the advance breaker, left mag, the starting one) for $750 and they tell me that the only part that is not new is the case (however it is painted and will look like new). Buying an overhaul kit for $775 from AS does not make any sense to me.
 
QAA will overhaul your mag (with the advance breaker, left mag, the starting one) for $750 and they tell me that the only part that is not new is the case (however it is painted and will look like new). Buying an overhaul kit for $775 from AS does not make any sense to me.

Aircraft Spruce also sells an overhauled Slick impulse mag for about the same price you referenced. It's good to have choices. :)

(I'm not employed by ACS, just using these numbers and links for reference)
 
Aircraft Spruce also sells an overhauled Slick impulse mag for about the same price you referenced. It's good to have choices. :)

(I'm not employed by ACS, just using these numbers and links for reference)

Exactly what I saw. No sense in overhauling if I can just order one overhauled online with free shipping and have 0 downtime. The only advantage I can see of overhauling locally is with warranty. If it comes DOA or with issues from Aircraft Spruce it's going to cost in shipping and wait time grounded until it gets sorted out.

I'm now leaning toward overhauling them both locally. If I'm being realistic now that I'm just flying for fun it seems like it'll be a while until I fly another 500 hours, even though I'd love to say I'll do it in the next couple of years. When I had the 172 or the Citabria the hours added up quickly but with the fast RV it'll take forever.
 
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Slick Sb1-15A

This SB may impact you. This is for gear replacement on specific models and serial number range. $114 per gear per mag. I replaced brushes while inside. $17 per mag. Total time 456 since new, so I called this my 500 IRAN. SLICK recommendations are IRAN at first 500 hrs, rebuild each subsequent 500 hrs .
 
Not to hijack this thread. Can people compare SureFly vs P-Mag?

Does the SureFly use AC Plugs or Automotive Plugs
 
Not to hijack this thread. Can people compare SureFly vs P-Mag?

Does the SureFly use AC Plugs or Automotive Plugs

The SureFly uses a standard Slick mag harness, so aircraft plugs gapped normally unless you want to modify the harness for auto plugs.

IMG_4988.webp
 
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This SB may impact you. This is for gear replacement on specific models and serial number range. $114 per gear per mag. I replaced brushes while inside. $17 per mag. Total time 456 since new, so I called this my 500 IRAN. SLICK recommendations are IRAN at first 500 hrs, rebuild each subsequent 500 hrs .

Going to check my serial numbers later today. Has anyone heard of this company? $400 to $450 for a I.R.A.N. Inspection and comes with a 500 hour warranty.

https://www.aircraftmagnetoservice....MI--bI5rXR5wIVQdbACh1XCARVEAAYASACEgIeFPD_BwE
 
Going to check my serial numbers later today. Has anyone heard of this company? $400 to $450 for a I.R.A.N. Inspection and comes with a 500 hour warranty.

I have not dealt with the company you are inquiring about. However 8 years ago my 500 hr inspection / repair for 4250R/4251 Slicks at Quality Aircraft Accessories in Tulsa was $675 for both. So the price mentioned in your post is probably in todays ballpark.
 
The SureFly mags can be used with auto plugs if you want. There is no advantage to doing this, other than the cost of the plugs, and you need to weigh that with the possible ignition harness modification/replacement, and likely cylinder head spark plug modification/adapter installation. You can gap an aviation massive electrode spark plug to a greater gap - up to .036, I think according to the SureFly manual, but you need to be careful doing this. Be careful not to damage the center insulator, or stress the center electrode lugs. I have champion REM 40E plugs that I gapped to .025 on the SureFly side. Any more than that and I was afraid I would put too much bending stress on the lugs. If you run REM37BY plugs, increasing the gap to a greater gap is much more easily accomplished. Any fine wire plug would also be easier to gap where you want it. If you run the -37BY plugs your CHT?s might increase a bit relative to the -40E?s. Probably not an issue. Incidentally, according to SureFly, they?ve been unable to determine any advantage to increasing the spark plug gap above the normal .016-.021 normal gap. I don?t know what their testing parameters were for this.
 
Yes, this company has a good rep for Mag work. They used to be located in the Seattle area for years before they moved to Montana.

In addition to Slick SB1-15A (11/12/2018) for the Monel electrode installation, there is also SB1-19 (2/6/2019) and the SB2-19 (10/14/2019) for mags with impulse couplings.

So it looks like I lucked out this time. Mine were built before these SBs came out. My Mags are model 4373 with serial numbers 08010719 and 08010721
 
Initial flight

Weather cleared enough (first Saturday this year with no rain!!) for getting the RV-6 in the air with the new Surefly (fixed timing @ 25*). I installed a new set of Tempest plugs on the SureFly (gapped 0.016-0.019") to let it perform to its fullest potential.

The flight was completely uneventful. The O-320 (1200 hrs SMOH) ran exactly as it should....smooth and strong. Mag drop is about 20 rpm less with the SureFly and the engine starts very nicely.

I want to emphasize I wasn't looking for improved performance, just wanted to replace via plug-n-play the mechanical mag and its associated inspection/overhaul requirements with an electronic ignition that won't need any maintenance for the remaining life of the engine. The fact the SureFly doesn't make itself obvious in flight is a good thing.

I like it.
 
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So it looks like I lucked out this time. Mine were built before these SBs came out. My Mags are model 4373 with serial numbers 08010719 and 08010721

Excellent...... so all know, seems Champion will reimburse you for SB driven replacement parts. Just have to go through a distributor for new parts and through same to send back old, with paperwork. Champion sends reimbursement $$$ to distributor, then from them to you. I verified these statements with Aircraft Spruce as well as a call over to Champion customer support in Liberty SC. Make no matter the warranty status of your mags. For the gear replacement in sb1-15a , you also get a new set of brushes in the box with the gear.
 
Issue with SureFly SIM & Skyview EMS Tach ?

Anyone installed the SureFly in aircraft with SkyView SV-EMS-220? Referring to tach connection to EMS with P-Lead wires....any isssues with this?
Thanks
 
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