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Ask a controller... (in memory of Tony Kelly - tkatc)

tkatc

Well Known Member
Hey guys...I can't contribute much in the way of RVs (flying or building) but I have been bitten by the RV bug and have been reading the forums a lot.

Anyway, this forum seems to be one area where I can contribute. I am an FAA controller and have my private pilot license. I am not IFR rated so I can't give insight on that so much but I can give you the controller perspective on most issues dealing with air traffic.

Leave any questions you may have here or email me at [email protected]. No question is a dumb question...I train controllers too so I have seen plenty of misguided thought processes. Even if you just want to know WHY a controller did this or that.

My ATC opinion is NOT an official FAA recognized opinion, so any advice you get from me is ONLY an opinion.
 
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Good post!

I make it a policy to talk to the controllers even when I'm passing controlled airspace but won't penetrate it. I do this so they know I'm there, know what my intentions are, and can provide traffic advisors. Some of the slower Class Delta controllers seem to be so board they are happy to have someone to talk to.

Besides, you might be asked to buzz the tower some time. ;)
 
I love VAF. :) Glad you are here!

Curious question... I seem to get cleared for a lot of (VFR) things. Typically when I know a request is somewhat annoying, short-notice, or quite optional -- I'll add "if able" to end, to help identify that I'm aware of this, and that it's OK/expected in advance that I might get a "no".

Is that helpful, or appreciated? Or just more extra words...? :)

Thanks!
 
Welcome to VAF, Tony.....

....and if you're ever through the Augusta, Ga. neighborhood, let's go ride in my -10,

Best,
 
DCat...the "if able" at the end of any request is not required. If the controller is busy then it is extra frequency congestion, but I think many of them would like that sort of politeness if they are not too busy. In fact, I think it might actually entice the controller to work a bit harder to accomadate your request.

Pierre, THANKS!!! I see your posts all over the place. You were a huge part of this site a few years back when I was on here and you are still just as active. Kudos!!

As far as the ride in your -10, I might take you up on that. I have the first 2 weeks in August off and I emailed Alex about some transition training. I think him and I would be a good mix because he is a controller as well but if he is busy or booked up I will seek alternate training and I understand you do that sort of thing?
 
i always wondered how I should "appropriately" ask this, but when I take friends and family for joyrides around the atlanta skyline, I remain clear of the bravo airspace by flying under it, but I usually call up approach and get on with them and get a code, just for traffic advisories

What is the appropriate phraseology for this? I've been saying vfr flight following for photography around atlanta- but I wondered if I could just say, "would like traffic advisories while remaining clear of bravo"

my instrument checkride is tomorrow, it's the VFR communications that i've gotten rusty on :)
 
Is there any regulation requiring a pilot to listen to the ATIS before contacting the tower? I know it is encouraged, but sometimes cumbersome for single radio airplanes.

thanks
Bruce Green
 
it should be a personal requirement, updated airport info including taxiway closures, runway closures, and weather conditions before landing- why wouldn't you want to know that?
 
Gimp...it sounds as though you already have a good method. But I think a good word to use in your case would be "circumnavigate" ie "Request advisories as I circumnavigate the class bravo"

Skybolt...the ATIS is there for a reason...in fact, several reasons. The controller providing approach control services to a controlled airport is REQUIRED to make sure you have the appropriate weather and runway in use before entering the pattern. So if you are unable to get the ATIS the controller will make sure you have the weather but they will not be happy about it. Also, as mentioned, the ATIS will provide a bit more than just weather and runway so it is just the smart thing to do even if it is a pain to dial it in. Many ATIS's broadcast on the VOR frequency so that should alleviate the need to switch RADIO frequencies, you can simply listen in on the NAV radio.
 
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One more thing guys...this is NOT an official FAA approved forum so the advice you get here, while true to the best of my knowledge or opinion, should not be thought of as gospel. Please take it with a grain of salt. It is worth exactly what you paid for it. NOTHING!! : )
 
Flight Following

I always wondered about this, when requesting flight following I believe the correct phraseology is "...request flight following to...". If you're at the start of a very long journey, do you tell the controller your ultimate destination or just use a semi local point in the correct direction for the time being? If this is the case, how do you fess up during the last hand off? Do you just advise ATC of a new, farther away, destination? What if you need to make a couple of zig zags in your route? For example, "...flight following to Mayberry International via Haypatch Airport, Fudpucker VOR, and Bob's Airport..." Do you need to tell ATC all of those in the initial call?

I was on flight following in the LA basin once and when I got ready to make a course correction and decend I advised ATC what I was doing. I didn't ask for permission. He responded as though he was approving my course correction. I don't need an approval to change course or altitude while in flight following mode right? Do I need to advise ATC of course corrections at all?
 
Here's another one...

Do you have to be cleared (i.e. "frequency change approved") once clear of a given controlled airspace. I heard the local Class D controller change frequencies to "catch" a pilot that had transitioned his airspace, and then switched frequencies to his home airport. This is something that I have always done (I frequently transition the Class D as it is between my "cheap" fuel airport and my home airport) and have never heard them approve my freq. change (nor have they ever "busted" me like they did this other pilot.) Sometimes they'll inform me that there is no traffic between me and my home airport (about 2 miles outside of the class D), and other times I don't hear anything and just change frequencies once I'm clear of the Class D airspace.

So what is correct?
 
ArVee, I would prefer the pilot requesting advisories to give me his true destination. If it is a very obscure place that would not be recognized by the controller then perhaps include the state or major city so he knows your general direction. If you want to zigzag then I would tell the controller I am flying to "so and so" VIA whatever point (vor, airport, landmark). As far as the controller "approving" your course correction or altitude change...you are right, you do not need controller approval. But you are asking for a service and this type of "advisement" helps the controller to provide that service. Often times I will advise a pilot to hold off on his intended change of course or altitude to avoid traffic, weather, etc.

RBD...I am not sure I understand your question fully. But I believe it to be good ettiquette to announce your intention to change freqs. I personally hate when pilots change over on their own without giving me the heads up. In simple terms, you used the controller to cut through his yard, you could at least say "Bye" when you leave. Just a nicer thing to do.

Not sure I understand the "catching" thing though. If a pilot violated some airspace, sometimes letting him know discretely that we saw him is just a way to say "Hey, no harm no foul, but call me next time you transit my airspace" instead of formally getting FSDO involved.
 
I've got a question similar to one you've already answered, regarding changes of course while under flight following.

When I'm on VFR flight following and I want to climb/descend I always state "SoCal approach 96H would like to climb to XXX, if that's not a problem for you."

Since I'm VFR I know I don't need ATC approval, but I don't want to just climb/descend/change course without letting them know, and don't want to do it if it's going to interfere with other traffic they're handling.

So my question is, is this an appropriate way to advise ATC I want to make a change?

Thanks so much for offering up your expertise/experience as an ATC controller, it is much appreciated
!
 
JTrusso...that sounds like an excellent way to inform the controller of your intentions.
 
Skybolt...the ATIS is there for a reason...in fact, several reasons. The controller providing approach control services to a controlled airport is REQUIRED to make sure you have the appropriate weather and runway in use before entering the pattern. So if you are unable to get the ATIS the controller will make sure you have the weather but they will not be happy about it. Also, as mentioned, the ATIS will provide a bit more than just weather and runway so it is just the smart thing to do even if it is a pain to dial it in. Many ATIS's broadcast on the VOR frequency so that should alleviate the need to switch RADIO frequencies, you can simply listen in on the NAV radio.

Thanks for the info, I realize that the ATIS is there for a reason and am not advocating skipping it, I am wondering if there is any regulation making it mandatory, I have not been able to find one and I am guessing by your response there isn't one. I think ATIS is a great idea just that there are a few situations now and then where I think it is counterproductive. I will check the VOR frequency for my airport next time I am up, thanks for that tip.
 
Skybolt....I sort of cringed when i re-read my reply. It does come off kinda harsh but that was not my intent. And the tip on the VOR freq might not work for you. I just know that MY airport uses the VOR freq to broadcast the ATIS. Not ALL are like that.

On a side note....I always found it funny when a pilot came in and said "I can't get the ATIS because my radio doesn't go that low" (108.2) I chuckled because I know he was trying his COMM radio and not the NAV radio. (They use a different freq range)
 
...
On a side note....I always found it funny when a pilot came in and said "I can't get the ATIS because my radio doesn't go that low" (108.2) I chuckled because I know he was trying his COMM radio and not the NAV radio. (They use a different freq range)
That would be me. As I only have a comm radio and no VOR NAV radio. I think that will become more common.

Thanks for the input. This is very helpful.
 
What's this V O R radio you guys keep talking about? Is that some kind of antique radio?
 
Leaving KFLL the other day my friend didn't want FF. We took off and tower vectored us around as we left. Tower gave us a vector that nicked KHWO airspace. I didn't think it was a problem since we were talking with ATC which is the sole requirement to be in class D airspace. He disagree and checked with the local flight school that backs up his views.

Thoughts?

Thanks,

Paul
 
If ATC gives you a vector that takes you into adjacent airspace then the controller vectoring the aircraft is responsible for "pointing out" the aircraft to the adjacent facility. The pilot is not responsible.

However, there seems to be more to this story and I would have to have more details. What type of airspace is HWO?
 
November Required?

A local controller chewed me out on the radio for not saying November at the front of my tail number. When I took the ASF communication course not one example using the November...

Who is right?

H
 
Ok, you said that ALL questions would be tolerated so here is one that is "out there".

I only fly VFR. When I ask for flight following is there a way to ask that gets into whatever system shows my flight on Flightaware.com?

Some of the flights show and others do not.

My wife likes to watch my progress and you know the old saying about a happy spouse and happy house.

And yes, I do know that I need a tracker:D
 
Yep, Mel...

What's this V O R radio you guys keep talking about? Is that some kind of antique radio?

...Vee Only Remember dat radio from a long, long time ago:)

Seriously, I taught Avionics classes at Ft. Gordon, Ga. in the 60's, including the old Tacan:eek: GPS????

Best,
 
Nucleus, the November or Type before your numbers/letters are required in my mind. The intent is to keep confusion out of your transmission so you are not mistaken for another aircraft. That being said, I doubt you were confusing anyone by omitting the "November". Why a controller would chew you out for it is beyond me. I am guilty of omitting the "November" myself, but again, it is a requirement as I understand it.

Corbinace, in order for flightaware to track your progress you must be entered into the "machine". Some controllers do this while others do not. In order for me to explain this you need some background info. There are 20 Air traffic Control CENTERS across the country. Each one has its own computer for flight plans and tracking info and such. Underneath each CENTER are multiple approach controls, towers, and every other kind of airspace which is governed by that center computer. Think of a center as a state and an approach control a city within that state. When a controller enters you into this computer ("The machine") you are then tracked by that computer and I believe flightaware is slaved off that computer.

The reasons some controllers enter you into the machine and others do not will vary depending upon many variables. Some controllers have better equipment that makes it very easy to enter you, others have equipment that makes that very cumbersome. If you are going a great distance some controllers will enter you because it makes hand offs to the next facility easier and you will be handed off multiple times. If you are going a short distance they might not think the work is work the effort because you would only be handed off once or twice. You could ask to be put in the machine....but most controllers would prefer you get that sort of thing while on the ground with your local clearance delivery. (the same clearance delivery you would call for an IFR clearance)
 
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Thanks TKATC!!

Tkatc:

As you can see, your post was a really good idea.

The first two times I flew from Tucson into the LA basin I did it with an instructor. That was a good idea too. Folks spoke so quickly it was amazing.

BIG THANK YOU.
 
The use of "november"

The sporty's VFR communications training specifically says you can drop the "N" because every aircraft in the US is prefixed with N in the registration. In the AIM, it doesn't say to use "November" in the communications with ATC.. I don't use it and wasn't taught to use it. Here is an example from the AIM:

1. Request for taxi instructions prior to departure. State your aircraft identification, location, type of operation planned (VFR or IFR), and the point of first intended landing.

EXAMPLE-
Aircraft: ?Washington ground, Beechcraft One Three One Five Niner at hangar eight, ready to taxi, I-F-R to Chicago.?

Tower: ?Beechcraft one three one five niner, Washington ground, runway two seven, taxi via taxiways Charlie and Delta, hold short of runway three three left.?
 
bkilby....in your example you prove my belief. You can use November OR the aircraft type..ie BEECH.
 
Since we're talking about aircraft types, do most controllers know what an RV is? How do you and your atc colleagues prefer to have us describe our RV's when first contacting atc?

Experimental 1234A?
RV 1234A?
Experimental RV 1234A?
Experimental November 1234A?

Is the RV type designation in the atc handbook? I've filed flight plans using HXB and RV7, which is most useful for atc?

I frequently fly into KTYS, whose parallel runways are closely spaced (less than 1/4 mile). What is the separation requirement between IFR/IFR and IFR/VFR traffic? Their controllers seem to treat these runways as one and it is not uncommon to end up 5 to 8 miles in trail just because you can't see traffic arriving for the parallel runway. On occasion, when I've arrive on an IFR flight plan, I've cancelled IFR with approach control to effectively let them know that I'll accept lesser separation distance as a VFR aircraft to avoid what seems to be excessive vectoring. Sometimes works, mostly doesn't.

Any comments or insight would be appreciated

Mike
 
I'm not a controller, but I can tell you what most of them tell me.
You are required by your operating limitations to inform the controller of the experimental nature of your aircraft when landing or taking off from a controlled airport.
Most controllers want to know the type so they can properly asses speeds.
I use "Experimental RV 168TX" on initial call up. They seem to be happy with this.
 
Alcladrv...As far as controllers knowing what an RV is I would say most DON'T. To a controller, an airplane is either a single, a twin, or a jet. Also, the other consideration is weight class, small, large and heavy. I would just put experimental on the flight plan or RV7A. Some controllers are aircraft saavy and will pick up on it. Most will not. I personally can almost guess which experimentals are RVs just by the ground speed.

As far as separation on final, the parallel runways you speak of are separated by less than 2500' and are considered ONE runway by controllers. Depending on the weight class of the aircraft in front of you (or to your left or right) separation will vary. I am not an expert on parallel runways because I don't work those on a daily basis so I can't give you any tips to avoid excessive vectors. You may be able to search the internet for the 7110.65. That is the controller's handbook and describes separation requirements in detail.
 
The following info might give some insight to the required separation on final. I was too lazy to look it up on my last post but here it is....

f. TERMINAL. In addition to subpara e, separate
an aircraft landing behind another aircraft on the
same runway, or one making a touch‐and‐go,
stop‐and‐go, or low approach by ensuring the
following minima will exist at the time the preceding
aircraft is over the landing threshold:
NOTEConsider
parallel runways less than 2,500 feet apart as a
single runway because of the possible effects of wake
turbulence.
1. Small behind large- 4 miles.
2. Small behind B757- 5 miles.
3. Small behind heavy- 6 miles
 
If ATC gives you a vector that takes you into adjacent airspace then the controller vectoring the aircraft is responsible for "pointing out" the aircraft to the adjacent facility. The pilot is not responsible.

However, there seems to be more to this story and I would have to have more details. What type of airspace is HWO?
Class D; nothing more to the story and no bust... but he's busting my chops about being wrong while I claim neither he, nor the flight school, know what they're talking about.

Thanks for confirming what I'd read in the controller handbook a long time ago.
 
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Class D; nothing more to the story and no bust... but he's busting my chops about being wrong while I claim neither he, nor the flight school, know what they're talking about.

Thanks for confirming what I'd read in the controller handbook a long time ago.

one tower cannot vector you into another tower's airspace, right? around here when I go through other delta's I need to be on with approach or center, not just an adjacent delta's tower
 
I can't see a reason for ANY tower to vector all that excessively. If a tower is vectoring you (that suggests to me they have RADAR of some sort), then they will either keep you clear of adjacent airspace or will be responsible to point you out. If they gave you a vector with the intent for you to leave thier airspace and then cut you loose...you are then responsible for any airspace around you.

This is why I say I would need just a bit more information to answer this more accurately. I would like to know WHY the vector was issued in the first place.
 
i agree with the above, tower will usually say extend your downwind, extend your base, or circle give way to traffic, they won't say fly heading 270 for one minute or something like that, or at least i've never witnessed it
 
Controllers

Couple of things I haven't seen mentioned, there is a LOT of controller training going on and one has to be VERY patient with the trainee controllers. Example: after telling clearance and ground that I had the ATIS, ground issued a taxi clearance and then after a pause asked, "do you have information___???
I am hearing more and more missed radio calls. The worst offenders are the major airlines. Very understandable when things are busy, but at 3 am when two in a row don't answer repeated calls??? Take a look at what happened to the Northwest pilots if you don't think this is a hot topic.
The other side of this is that just a few hours ago I listened to an RJ transitioning from a non radar airport into center airspace. The controller responded with a fairly long amended clearance, which the RJ pilot read back in a very proffesional manner. The controller said "nice readback".
 
An Example:

I can't see a reason for ANY tower to vector all that excessively.

At Addison (ADS) traffic is very congested and the south edge of their airspace buts up to DFW Class B. When there is a north flow, there are times when you may very well be vectored into Class B airspace. As I understand it, there is a special arrangement for this situation.
 
ATC Question: If I am on VFR flight following and my route passes through an MOA that is hot, can the controller still provide advisories through it or will I just be given the choice to either divert or drop flight following?

Follow up question: For those MOAs with regular, published hours, do controllers ever have current information to the contrary? For example, if the sectional says MOA is active from 6AM to 6 PM Monday thru Friday, will the controller know if they decided to take wednesday off and there actually is no activity to be concerned about?

thanks

erich
 
At Addison (ADS) traffic is very congested and the south edge of their airspace buts up to DFW Class B. When there is a north flow, there are times when you may very well be vectored into Class B airspace. As I understand it, there is a special arrangement for this situation.

welp, you learn somethin everyday!
 
I can't see a reason for ANY tower to vector all that excessively. If a tower is vectoring you (that suggests to me they have RADAR of some sort), then they will either keep you clear of adjacent airspace or will be responsible to point you out. If they gave you a vector with the intent for you to leave thier airspace and then cut you loose...you are then responsible for any airspace around you.

This is why I say I would need just a bit more information to answer this more accurately. I would like to know WHY the vector was issued in the first place.
To keep us clear from IFR traffic on the ILS.
KFLL has radar; it's Fort Lauderdale International :)
 
jrs14885...you are correct. There IS a lot of controller training going on. This is a result of the FAA trying NOT to hire when they should and now that many controllers are eligble for retirement they are scrambling to hire and train new controllers. This would be bad in and of it itself but on top of it, the agency imposed a much lower pay band for new controllers and thus some of that talent that was contemplating ATC sought careers elsewhere. So not only do we have a lot of trainees...we have a lot of trainees with little to no experience.

Mel...if you are vectored into class bravo then it would be the controller's responsibility to point you out. I am not sure what agreements are in place between ADS and DFW but I am sure that there are agreements made between facilities to reduce the work load of coordination. So this may be one of those agreements. Again, the pilot would not be responsible.

Erich...I don't work any MOAs in my area but I do work restricted areas. these areas go hot and cold quite often (they are not on a published scheduled time) but they always coordinate with us first so we can advise pilots. When you are recieving flight following, the controller will inform you of and MOAs or restricted areas he sees you heading for and may offer a vector or just a warning and let you fly around the area on your own.

Paul...IFR traffic on the ils is one of many good reasons a tower may vector you. But I still stand by my belief that IF he vectors you so far out that you penetrate another type of airspace then he is responsible to point you out to the other controller.
 
vectored into Class B airspace

re: At Addison (ADS) traffic is very congested and the south edge of their airspace buts up to DFW Class B. When there is a north flow, there are times when you may very well be vectored into Class B airspace. As I understand it, there is a special arrangement for this situation.

If a controller vectors you into Class B airspace, remember you Must still receive a Class B clearance. Don't assume a vector and or altitude assignment into Class B is a clearance to enter.

Regarding tower controllers vectoring aircraft:
a lot of busy towers, Las Vegas and Phoenix are two that I have first hand experience with are "limited approach control towers" which means they are certified as approach control operators. They may vector and assign you altitudes. They may, with local procedures have assigned airspace.
 
DC SFRA

Hi Tony, this post is a great idea as radio calls and calling ATC are my week point.

Others may be able to answer this also, but the question for you is:
If I am on a VFR flight plan w/ flight following that will take me through the DC SFRA how should I activate my DVFR flight plan? Do I tell the controller I need to switch frequencies to call the FSS to activate it? Or can the controller providing flight following do it for me? What would the controller prefer? Is there another way? I assume it will not be activated automatically. I?ve taken the FAA training but never actually done it.

And how about getting clearance through the class B at nearly the same time? Do I call the terminal controller?

This is a busy airspace with lots of opportunity for a low time VFR pilot like me to screw something up and brake airspace.
 
While this thread was designed to educate YOU guys I feel I am going to be educated in a few areas as well. I am very confident within my own airspace but the questions you guys bring up make me question a few of my fundamental beliefs.

I plan on getting to the bottom of this "vector" responsibility thing. Class B or not...I always had it in the back of my head that Class B was a gray area for me with regards to being vectored through it without a specific clearance to enter. So, with that in mind, give me a few days and I will get a definate answer for that. Or at least a general concensus of what a Bravo controller believes is the correct answer.
 
DC SFRA

Hi Tony, this post is a great idea as radio calls and calling ATC are my week point.

Others may be able to answer this also, but the question for you is:
If I am on a VFR flight plan w/ flight following that will take me through the DC SFRA how should I activate my DVFR flight plan? Do I tell the controller I need to switch frequencies to call the FSS to activate it? Or can the controller providing flight following do it for me? What would the controller prefer? Is there another way? I assume it will not be activated automatically. I?ve taken the FAA training but never actually done it.

And how about getting clearance through the class B at nearly the same time? Do I call the terminal controller?

This is a busy airspace with lots of opportunity for a low time VFR pilot like me to screw something up and brake airspace.

Hi Michael,

Let me see if I can help out with your question. Since I fly out of an airport in the DC SFRA and have experience doing this since the initial DC ADIZ, I have knowledge and experience in this area.

The DC SFRA is not an ADIZ as defined in the AIM regardless of what others around the country seem to believe. When you say DVFR this refers to a Defense VFR rules that apply to flying in an ADIZ. In other words, what you need to file is a SFRA flight plan, not a DVFR flight plan.

If you are using flight following through the SFRA, you must still have a seperate SFRA plan on file. Specific to your question, while on flight following and about 10nm from the SFRA, let the controller handling you know that you have an SFRA plan on file. They'll take care of it from there. Keep in mind that you should not ask for a "clearance" to enter the SFRA because no clearances are given. When you tell the controller that you have a plan on file, until they have you on radar, they will tell you to remain clear. When they have you they'll give you "proceed on course to......, remain clear of bravo airspace".

While in the SFRA, the controllers will generally not let you change frequencies to open a VFR SAR flight plan. This begs the question as to why would you want to have a VFR flight plan when you are on flight following anyway? While in the SFRA the controllers generally give you traffic advisories when the volume allows them to. On a busy weekend morning....forget it.

As to a bravo clearance, if you ask the controller you are working with he will either work with you directly or if it is one of the SFRA controllers will give you one of the PCT (Potomac Consolidate Tracon) controllers frequencies to make your request. Good luck getting one though :D Now...if you are already at a higher altitude that will put you through the bravo you stand a better chance of getting a bravo clearance but don't be shocked if they tell you to remain clear of bravo.

I took off from IAD (Dulles) on Saturday which is 19nm SW of GAI. They routed me West to clear the bravo then said stay clear of it to GAI so I had to make a huge semi-circle around the North side of the bravo airspace and a short 10 minute flight took 30 minutes.

Just remember that if you are going to be flying VFR within 60nm of the DC SFRA you MUST take the online course. This will answer many of your questions about operating in the SFRA environment as well.
 
Thanks Mike! This is just the info I needed.
Looks like I should plan on 3500? and for a little weaving to remain clear of Bravo.
 
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