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-   -   Garmin TFR Database Error (https://vansairforce.net/community/showthread.php?t=206420)

jliltd 05-15-2022 01:19 AM

Garmin Portables TFR Database Error
 
I have a question about the accuracy of Garmin's TFR descriptions as they are shown on the maps of our aera 660's and 760's. There are three contiguous TFRs along the border between the US and Mexico. 2/0045, 2/0046 and 2/0047. These are located down the Rio Grande from El Paso, Texas to Van Horn, Texas. Local pilots have run into arguments in the air because the Garmin database says these TFRs are from the surface up to FL13. However all the other "competitive" databases show these TFRs are from 10K to 13K. As does the FAA Notam web site. Not the surface up like Garmin's depictions state. So why would the Garmin database not state the proper altitudes of these TFRs? This would be very important information. The Garmin flyers are diverting around this airspace trusting their Garmin TFR information and not wanting to "virtually" violate the TFR. All the while the Foreflight, iFly, FlyQ, Avidyne flyers can just fly under it without violation per the official FAA NOTAM.

Longez 05-15-2022 11:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jliltd (Post 1608281)
I have a question about the accuracy of Garmin's TFR descriptions as they are shown on the maps of our aera 660's and 760's. There are three contiguous TFRs along the border between the US and Mexico. 2/0045, 2/0046 and 2/0047. These are located down the Rio Grande from El Paso, Texas to Van Horn, Texas. Local pilots have run into arguments in the air because the Garmin database says these TFRs are from the surface up to FL13. However all the other "competitive" databases show these TFRs are from 10K to 13K. As does the FAA Notam web site. Not the surface up like Garmin's depictions state. So why would the Garmin database not state the proper altitudes of these TFRs? This would be very important information. The Garmin flyers are diverting around this airspace trusting their Garmin TFR information and not wanting to "virtually" violate the TFR. All the while the Foreflight, iFly, FlyQ, Avidyne flyers can just fly under it without violation per the official FAA NOTAM.

Jim,

Perhaps semantics, but there is not a TFR database stored inside the Aera 660/760 non-volatile memory.

When the unit is powered up, any TFR data available is dynamically received over datalink during that power cycle.

It sounds like there is either an error in the received datalink TFR data, or an interpretation error of correct data.

TFR data is received from satellite (SXM) or ground uplink (ADS-B). Which method were you using to receive this data when you saw the error?

Thanks,
Steve

g3xpert 05-15-2022 08:01 PM

TFR Data
 
Hi Jim,

We will take a look at this, this week. In addition to the type of datalink, can you let us know what datalink receiver you are using?

Thanks,

Justin

jliltd 05-16-2022 12:07 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I have an aera 660 with a GDL 52 with an active SXM subscription. So I have both FIS-B and SXM data available. I don't know which source is priority. The GDL 52 is hard wired to the aera 660 via serial connection. I outlined the TFRs in yellow here:

Longez 05-16-2022 03:14 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Jim,

I panned around and looked at these TFRs before shutting down after my flight today. I also saw the issue you reported.

My Aera 760 is hardwired to a GDL 52R and receiving TFRs via SXM.

We don't know if this is a SXM data issue or an Aera 660/760 issue, but I am sure Justin will get to the bottom of it.

Attachment 25886

Steve

g3xpert 05-16-2022 03:25 PM

TFR Data
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jliltd (Post 1608482)
I have an aera 660 with a GDL 52 with an active SXM subscription. So I have both FIS-B and SXM data available. I don't know which source is priority. The GDL 52 is hard wired to the aera 660 via serial connection. I outlined the TFRs in yellow here:

Thanks Jim,

We are seeing the same thing as both you and Steve. This appears to affect both Aera 660 and Aera 760. We will jump on getting a fix out for this, thanks for the heads up on this.

Justin

RV8JD 05-16-2022 04:21 PM

Justin,

Why are TFRs not available (apparently) while the Aera 660 is connected to the internet via Wi-Fi?

Screenshot taken a few minutes ago, showing WX, but no TFRs that are being discussed in this thread:


Fred.Stucklen 05-16-2022 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV8JD (Post 1608615)
Justin,

Why are TFRs not available (apparently) while the Aera 660 is connected to the internet via Wi-Fi?


I see them on SkyVector.com....

RV8JD 05-16-2022 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred.Stucklen (Post 1608621)
I see them on SkyVector.com....

Yes, and I see them on ForeFlight.com (the web version of FF). But that's not what we are talking about here.

g3xpert 05-17-2022 09:19 AM

TFR Over Internet
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by RV8JD (Post 1608615)
Justin,

Why are TFRs not available (apparently) while the Aera 660 is connected to the internet via Wi-Fi?

Screenshot taken a few minutes ago, showing WX, but no TFRs that are being discussed in this thread:


Good Morning,

There are a few different sources you can use for weather information, SiriusXM, FIS-B, and the Internet based Garmin Weather Datastream. The first two also include TFR information, the internet weather data stream does not. See page 115 of the Aera 660 Pilot's Guide.

Thanks,

Justin

RV8JD 05-17-2022 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g3xpert (Post 1608765)
Good Morning,

There are a few different sources you can use for weather information, SiriusXM, FIS-B, and the Internet based Garmin Weather Datastream. The first two also include TFR information, the internet weather data stream does not. See page 115 of the Aera 660 Pilot's Guide.

Thanks,

Justin

Thanks for the info. It would be quite helpful if the Garmin internet weather data stream included TFR info.

SwampRat 08-29-2022 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g3xpert (Post 1608765)
Good Morning,

There are a few different sources you can use for weather information, SiriusXM, FIS-B, and the Internet based Garmin Weather Datastream. The first two also include TFR information, the internet weather data stream does not. See page 115 of the Aera 660 Pilot's Guide.

Thanks,

Justin


Good morning Justin,

I am considering a 760 to replace my iPad (and Foreflight). A couple of questions.

Has the SW Texas TFR issue been fully resolved?

Is the TFR data now showing with internet weather stream on the 760? TBF, I am accustomed to seeing it on the iPad during flight planning and briefing and have found this invaluable.

Thanks

g3xpert 08-29-2022 03:46 PM

TFR Data
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by SwampRat (Post 1630677)
Good morning Justin,

I am considering a 760 to replace my iPad (and Foreflight). A couple of questions.

Has the SW Texas TFR issue been fully resolved?

Is the TFR data now showing with internet weather stream on the 760? TBF, I am accustomed to seeing it on the iPad during flight planning and briefing and have found this invaluable.

Thanks

Hi Nick,

Funny you mention this, we have a software build in process right now that incorporates the fix to this problem. This will be rolled out shortly and available for download directly. For the Aera 760, an update to both the display and the GDL it is receiving FIS-B data from is required to correct the problem.

Thanks,

Justin

navig8 08-29-2022 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g3xpert (Post 1630745)
Hi Nick,

Funny you mention this, we have a software build in process right now that incorporates the fix to this problem. This will be rolled out shortly and available for download directly. For the Aera 760, an update to both the display and the GDL it is receiving FIS-B data from is required to correct the problem.

Thanks,

Justin

Hi Justin,

Will the upcoming fix also cover TFR's not showing up when only an internet (Wifi) feed is available? You mention that both an update to the 760 and GDL will be needed but I don't see how an update to the GDL would fix the issue with no TFR's when only connected to the internet (since the 760 is not connected to the GDL in that case).

Thanks,
Eric

g3xpert 09-09-2022 09:31 AM

Software Update 9-9-2022
 
Good Morning,

We released Aera 760 software 2.62 and Aera 660 software 3.82 today, alongside GDL 5x software 2.19, to address this issue. We recommend downloading these updates as soon as practical to correct this issue.

G3X Touch installations should also update GDL 5x software when able, to ensure the FIS-B Data stream is being updated correctly.

Thanks,

Justin

jliltd 09-09-2022 02:28 PM

Great news! I am on the way to the airport where I have a G3X Touch flight deck, 4 aera 660's, one 760, three GDL 52's and one GDL 50 waiting (I always go non-R on the GDL 5xs). Time to fire up the old hotspot and let each airplane rip with the update.

navig8 09-09-2022 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by g3xpert (Post 1633299)
Good Morning,

We released Aera 760 software 2.62 and Aera 660 software 3.82 today, alongside GDL 5x software 2.19, to address this issue. We recommend downloading these updates as soon as practical to correct this issue.

G3X Touch installations should also update GDL 5x software when able, to ensure the FIS-B Data stream is being updated correctly.

Thanks,

Justin

Thank you Justin. Can you provide further information about the first line item in the change log: Add support for dynamic mapping products

What are dynamic mapping products?

Thanks,
Eric

RV8JD 09-09-2022 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navig8 (Post 1633379)
Thank you Justin. Can you provide further information about the first line item in the change log: Add support for dynamic mapping products

What are dynamic mapping products?

Thanks,
Eric

Dynamic mapping: https://www.aviationconsumer.com/acc...namic-mapping/
"With dynamic mapping, the user can customize the look of navigation and base maps and choose between track-up or north-up moving map orientation. With traditional static maps, the on-screen labels appear in a fixed position and orientation. So when the map is rotated, the labels may appear sideways or upside down. It’s a lot like viewing a paper map sideways or upside down. When in track-up mode, however, navigation maps will dynamically adjust to the direction of flight—automatically turning the maps so the labels are upright."
Not sure what this latest update adds.

navig8 09-09-2022 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV8JD (Post 1633380)
Dynamic mapping: https://www.aviationconsumer.com/acc...namic-mapping/
"With dynamic mapping, the user can customize the look of navigation and base maps and choose between track-up or north-up moving map orientation. With traditional static maps, the on-screen labels appear in a fixed position and orientation. So when the map is rotated, the labels may appear sideways or upside down. It’s a lot like viewing a paper map sideways or upside down. When in track-up mode, however, navigation maps will dynamically adjust to the direction of flight—automatically turning the maps so the labels are upright."
Not sure what this latest update adds.

RV8JD,

According to the Garmin site, the new 2.62 update has the following changes:

Change History
Changes made from version 2.61 to 2.62:
Add support for dynamic mapping products
Improve airspace alert reporting
Improve map display of TFR, NOTAM, and obstacle data
Improve usage of Magnetic Variation data
General improvements to system operation
Includes update to GDL 5X software version 2.19
Includes GDL 39 software version 4.91
Includes GPS software version 3.30

My question was about the first item in the list. What does "Add support for dynamic mapping products" mean for the aera 760? Before this update, the 760 already had a dynamic map where the detail would change as you zoom in and out.

RV8JD 09-09-2022 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by navig8 (Post 1633423)
RV8JD,

According to the Garmin site, the new 2.62 update has the following changes:

Change History
Changes made from version 2.61 to 2.62:
Add support for dynamic mapping products
Improve airspace alert reporting
Improve map display of TFR, NOTAM, and obstacle data
Improve usage of Magnetic Variation data
General improvements to system operation
Includes update to GDL 5X software version 2.19
Includes GDL 39 software version 4.91
Includes GPS software version 3.30

My question was about the first item in the list. What does "Add support for dynamic mapping products" mean for the aera 760? Before this update, the 760 already had a dynamic map where the detail would change as you zoom in and out.

Yes, I was aware of that. Hence this comment in my post: "Not sure what this latest update adds.".

But your original question was: "What are dynamic mapping products?"

Just trying to be helpful.

navig8 09-09-2022 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RV8JD (Post 1633427)
Yes, I was aware of that. Hence this comment in my post: "Not sure what this latest update adds.".

But your original question was: "What are dynamic mapping products?"

Just trying to be helpful (I need to quit doing that!)

Thanks, Carl. I appreciate the information you provided. I should have worded my question differently.

What I was really trying to ask is:

What are the dynamic mapping products that are now supported as part of this update?

I am hoping the folks at Garmin who monitor these forums might be able to provide a little more information on the update.

Eric

Ed_Wischmeyer 09-10-2022 02:24 PM

Hmm. The WiFi on the 660 died some time ago and it was way too expensive to get the unit overhauled, so now I do database updates via the USB connection on my computer. Tried to do an upgrade from 3.7 to 3.82 and the screen said Software Downloads Unavailable.

Databases upload just fine but in mass storage mode, but can't do a software upgrade in regular mode.

???

Longez 09-10-2022 03:33 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ed_Wischmeyer (Post 1633573)
Hmm. The WiFi on the 660 died some time ago and it was way too expensive to get the unit overhauled, so now I do database updates via the USB connection on my computer. Tried to do an upgrade from 3.7 to 3.82 and the screen said Software Downloads Unavailable.

Databases upload just fine but in mass storage mode, but can't do a software upgrade in regular mode.

???

I just updated by my Aera 660 and Aera 760 over USB using Garmin WebUpdater. Just took a couple of minutes for each.

Attachment 30775

Attachment 30776

Steve

jliltd 09-11-2022 04:33 PM

Okay. So I got two aera 660's to download and install their updates over wifi with, one with a GDL 50 attached via hard wire cable and the other with the GDL 52 attached via hard wire cable. While the aeras in fact updated they did not send the GDL 5x update to the data links.

So I decided I will use webupdater instead so I plug a USB cable into the GDL 52 and the computer Then I run web updater. The app says it no devices found. I tried multiple times with the GDL 52 turned on. So I cannot get software version 2.19 update to the GDL 5x devices.

Longez 09-11-2022 07:35 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by jliltd (Post 1633817)
Okay. So I got two aera 660's to download and install their updates over wifi with, one with a GDL 50 attached via hard wire cable and the other with the GDL 52 attached via hard wire cable. While the aeras in fact updated they did not send the GDL 5x update to the data links.

So I decided I will use webupdater instead so I plug a USB cable into the GDL 52 and the computer Then I run web updater. The app says it no devices found. I tried multiple times with the GDL 52 turned on. So I cannot get software version 2.19 update to the GDL 5x devices.

Jim,

As explained on the GDL 5X software page, the GDL 5X is updated by its external display (e.g. GDU 4XX, Aera 660/760), not directly from WebUpdater, and only when connected to external power.

After downloading the Aera 660/760 update on WebUpdater, make sure to click Next on this page to choose additional updates.

Attachment 30857

On the next page, you can select the GDL 5X software to be loaded into the Aera enabling it to update any connected and externally powered GDL 5X.

Attachment 30858

Steve

dmattmul 10-16-2022 10:11 PM

TFR error (Maybe)
 
1 Attachment(s)
While flying into Craig Field I noticed this TFR and asked Craig tower if this was active. I checked before making the trip and there was nothing. There is in another week. Foreflight has nothing. Maybe operator error but what gives. Last week similar issue for a football game that would not occur for 24 hours. Database updated this morning. What am I doing wrong?

Frustrated

RV8JD 10-16-2022 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmattmul (Post 1640442)
While flying into Craig Field I noticed this TFR and asked Craig tower if this was active. I checked before making the trip and there was nothing. There is in another week. Foreflight has nothing. Maybe operator error but what gives. Last week similar issue for a football game that would not occur for 24 hours. Database updated this morning. What am I doing wrong?

Frustrated

Future TFRs are shown in Yellow, while active TFRs are in Red. I believe if you touch the TFR info block on your screen or the Airspace Info-TFR button, the details of the future TFR will show.

Here is a screenshot from ForeFlight Web taken a few minutes ago:


mburch 10-16-2022 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmattmul (Post 1640442)
While flying into Craig Field I noticed this TFR and asked Craig tower if this was active. I checked before making the trip and there was nothing. There is in another week. Foreflight has nothing. Maybe operator error but what gives. Last week similar issue for a football game that would not occur for 24 hours. Database updated this morning. What am I doing wrong?

Looks like everything is working properly to me. That TFR will be active in a few days (information here). As is detailed in the pilot's guide, the color indicates whether a TFR is currently active, or scheduled for the future:

Quote:

TFRs are represented as an area highlighted by red (active) or yellow (not yet active).

dmattmul 10-17-2022 08:03 AM

Operator error
 
Thanks, seems it was operator error. I was expecting some sort of date when I popped up the indicator box if it was in the future. The area marked around KJAX appears red but the TFR does not occur for over a week. I’ll try and poke around to see if I can get more information to be displayed on my G3X.

mburch 10-17-2022 09:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmattmul (Post 1640483)
Thanks, seems it was operator error. I was expecting some sort of date when I popped up the indicator box if it was in the future. The area marked around KJAX appears red but the TFR does not occur for over a week.

I don't see any red coloration in the image you posted - perhaps you are seeing something different you haven't shared?

dmattmul 10-17-2022 09:29 AM

KJAX in red or maybe magenta.
 
Sorry should have designated which picture, it was the one posted by RV8JD.

dmattmul 10-17-2022 09:33 AM

Figured it out
 
TSR’s are listed in chronological reverse order. There is an active TSR when that picture was copied. Listing these in reverse has gotten me in trouble before as I was trying to read them in a busy environment.

RV8JD 10-17-2022 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmattmul (Post 1640483)
Thanks, seems it was operator error. I was expecting some sort of date when I popped up the indicator box if it was in the future. The area marked around KJAX appears red but the TFR does not occur for over a week. I’ll try and poke around to see if I can get more information to be displayed on my G3X.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmattmul (Post 1640515)
Sorry should have designated which picture, it was the one posted by RV8JD.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you are trying to get across, but in the screenshot I posted, the dark Pink (Magenta?) circles/shapes around KJAX is the Jacksonville International Airport Class "C" area. The future TFR over KNIP (Jacksonville Naval Air Station) is in Yellow, as indicated by the TFR info box next to it.

dmattmul 10-17-2022 05:08 PM

Carl,
 
You were helpful and appreciate it. Thanks

RV8JD 10-17-2022 05:10 PM

You're quite welcome. Glad I could help.

Plummit 10-17-2022 05:44 PM

1 Attachment(s)
I don't know what this guy used for displaying TFRs in his plane but it didn't work too well. This was the Presidential TFR over L.A last week:

Attachment 32412


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